WarriorConcept

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1295339355' post='2580896'] Which, for the record, is insane. If you came to me and said "Hey, I'm a regular member of alliance X and I have screens of all warchest information", my initial thought would be "this looks shoop'd", because what alliance has that info out in the open? [/quote] Several alliances do actually. Regardless if I received a screenshot from a spy, I would immediately proceed to notify that alliance about it, not keep it to myself.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295339151' post='2580888'] okay, 1) Dajabo gave no target. he only said that VE and MK were the most important alliance. 2) ya'll keep forgetting that pesky line where Dajabo says he does not condone spying. 3) he never told Lennox what to spy. in fact he told Lennox that Lennox should already know 4) Lennox is not a known spy until he umm.... actually spies. 5) When Lennox does spy, Dajabo goes to Impero to tell him. 6) Impero already knows as Lennox basically told Impero right after spying. 7) Impero tells Dajabo to $%&@ off basically. 8) Lennox was still a member of VE before deleting his nation. so, that should clarify the situation. Until Lennox actually spied- how was Dajabo to know it was nothing more than bluster and smack talk. hell, i have talked about spying on alliances before and to my knowledge have yet to be turned in as a spy since... well i have not actually spied on any alliance. the fact that VE gov knew almost immediately that Lennox had spied either means that Lennox was attempting to set up Polaris or that VE gov was setting up Polaris. no spy to my knowledge has ever sent material and then immediately came forth about it. let us also forget where Dajabo did attempt to come forward and tell Impero as that also suggests that he had nothing to do with the actual spying. otherwise, why wouldn't Dajabo have told Polar gov about the info instead of seeking out Impero? i would say that Dajabo seeking out Impero to tell VE that they had a spy is pretty damning evidence that Dajabo was not some sort of mastermind in this little spy operation. but let's just forget about this tiny piece of info because it pretty much crumbles this "rock" solid CB VE has. [/quote] Now tell me again, how long until after Dajobo received those screenshots did he come to Impero to talk about it? I'm pretty sure it was Impero who came to NpO to talk about the screenshots, and not the other way around.

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1295339055' post='2580883'] You show me the word target or equivalent in those logs and I'll liquidate my nation and give it all to VE. It was a casual chat, the intent that you apparently see to place a spy was not there. [/quote] Context is key, and I'm sure you're smart enough to realize this. Lennox said he wants to be a spy and said he would go after MHA. Then Dajobo said VE and MK were more politically important. If you don't think that's giving someone a direction/target, then you're being blissfully ignorant.

[quote name='cookavich' timestamp='1295338651' post='2580863'] Unlucky that his friend came into the discussion with the intention of manufacturing a CB. [/quote] And unlucky to not warn VE about said spy? Though at that point, I don't think it comes down to luck but personal choice. [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295338660' post='2580866'] VE already knew it was Lennox who had joined them. Impero approved his application immediately citing him as an experienced nation leader who was not required to pass through the academy. Hours later he had warchest info to show Dajobo. Either VE is grossly incompetent allowing a new member and a re-roll to access such information so soon after joining or this was a set up. I'm leaning towards the latter. [/quote] Yes, in the logs between Lennox and Dajobo Lennox did say he would be revealing that he was himself when joining. Also VE has already confirmed that when people sign in with their warchest, anyone of their members can see the information. [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295338775' post='2580871'] He did not say they were good targets, he said they are more politically relevant than MHA. [/quote] So, you don't consider that directing him to those 2 alliances when he originally had 1 target in mind?

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295338509' post='2580858'] He didn't say that either. Lennox asked who was the powerful alliance at the moment and assumed MHA because they were the largest. Dajobo told him VE and MK were more politically powerful at this time. Not once did he encourage Lennox to do anything of the sort, Lennox made that decision himself. Dajobo didn't discourage him but he did not "place" a spy in VE at all. The whole time frame of how long exactly? Dajobo assumed Lennox was having a lend of him, his only error was to ignore what he considered a fake screenshot rather than take it to VE. To me that does not constitute spying nor does it constitute placing a spy in VE for nefarious purposes. I do see how you and your friends would want to package it that way, however. [/quote] Okay, so a guy comes to you and say he wants to spy and names off a target. Then you decide to name off 2 other targets that you say are more politically important. You don't think that's directing at all? If Dajobo didn't want him spying, he wouldn't have mentioned anything period, or if he did he would have warned the alliances that he had just directed Lennox to. Taking all of this into account, the fact that he was approached first by a guy who wanted to be a spy then directing him towards another alliance, being handed a screenshot from said alliance should have immediately made him go to VE. But of course you and your friends would want to package it as a careless mistake by Dajobo, wouldn't you.

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1295338239' post='2580847'] Which would be entirely consistent if he didn't know there was a spy within their ranks because he never sent one. [/quote] You mean beside the fact that a guy told him he wanted to be a spy and then Dajobo himself actively told him VE and MK would be good targets. Followed by Lennox showing him screenshots from VE forums?

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1295337929' post='2580836'] There are a lot of problems with that mentality. Assuming that a CB has any meaning at all, the war it sparks should be a response to the crime itself. Even if this was, worst case scenario, Dajoboo engaged in a premeditated and self initiated espionage conspiracy against VE, it was not necessarily condoned by the polaris government, nor were they even necessarily aware that it was going on. Ignoring the fact that this time Random did choose to back his regent, what if instead an alliance gov opted to eject the spy in light of their own policy against it? Would them washing their hands of the responsible, and you getting your culprit not fulfill the purpose of the war itself? Unless VE's value system has changed recently, I was under the impression all out war was the last measure, not the first. Or on another level what if a rogue outside of both governments fabricated evidence suggesting in no uncertain terms that one was spying against the other. Would you blow off diplomacy and fail to even verify the story? It doesn't take much to fake a few logs, and with proper knowledge of graphic design, and two computers with IRC, one could easily create screenshots of fake logs or PMs? As you do not have perfect information, there is no way to verify your evidence short of talking to the subject of it. But- that would tip them off wouldn't it? [/quote] Like I said, the #2 of an alliance talking so much with a spy and even helping direct him to VE automatically would make me assume they're planning and working against me. While I understand your reasoning and how you would work it out, I personally believe that when govt is actively condoning something against your alliance, that's where the guns come out. Else, there'd be no war at all would there? Also to your second point, Impero and Dajobo did talk about it, Dajobo's excuse was that he was just "playing along"

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295337805' post='2580827'] I don't see him telling Lennox to spy on VE. Discussing the information, which he considered to be fake anyway, is answering a question about it? How do we know Lennox was not spying for VE and using a faked screenshot to get warchest info from Dajobo? [/quote] [quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1295337839' post='2580829'] He said VE and MK were the two big political players. He didn't give a target by any reasonable means. And by discussed you mean answered a question or two. Notice he did ASK anything. [/quote] Encouraging him to pick between VE and MK when Lennox was originally going to MHA is giving direction. I never said he answered anything, I said he discussed screenshots from within VE. How did Dajobo know he wasn't spying for VE? Oh maybe because he's the one who encouraged lennox to spy on VE in the first place. Regardless of the fact that during that whole time frame, he never decided to let VE know about a spy being within their ranks.

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1295337695' post='2580818'] ...unlucky that his friend sold him out. [/quote] Yes, unlucky he got caught directing a spy and working with him. Just because he was sold out by a friend doesn't excuse him from his own actions.

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1295337616' post='2580813'] Because he didn't. You're taking a couple of factual events, painting them in the worst possible light, then exaggerating them to high heaven and acting like thats what actually happened. [/quote] So he didn't do this stuff, yet at the same time they're factual events?

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295337360' post='2580802'] Because he didn't do anything of the sort. [/quote] [quote]20:33 Chancy I should spy on MHA 20:33 Chancy Just to make them mad 20:33 Dajobo|NpO| nah they aren't the enemy 20:34 Dajobo|NpO| pick domeone worth spying on 20:35 Chancy Give me suggestions 20:36 Dajobo|NpO| VE or MK are the two who are heavily involved in world politics 20:36 Dajobo|NpO| anything that happens will come through them first 20:39 Chancy I will consider spying on VE[/quote] [quote][2011-01-17 14:04:05] <Sprog> How do their warchest compare to yours? [2011-01-17 14:04:16] <Dajobo|NpO|> similar [2011-01-17 14:04:41] <Dajobo|NpO|> and I think they have most nations that are big enough that matter in compliance [2011-01-17 14:04:46] <Dajobo|NpO|> or close to it [2011-01-17 14:08:04] <Sprog> think you can beat them? [2011-01-17 14:09:42] <Dajobo|NpO|> prolly [2011-01-17 14:09:58] <Dajobo|NpO|> if they attack us I think we'd be hard [2011-01-17 14:10:06] <Dajobo|NpO|> we are ready for war[/quote] Seems like he did both. Gave him a target in VE then discussed information that was spied with the guy.

So, why didn't Dajobo tell VE he sent a spy into their ranks and then even proceeded to discuss the info he got from spying with said spy? Oh, he was just "playing along"

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1295336470' post='2580758'] Based on your premise, NPO war against OV was justified and VE was just opportunist and lied when said OV was innocent? Please enlighten me, how Dajobo [b]helped[/b] Lennox? [/quote] NpO leadership giving lennox a target to spy on then actively working with him to compare warchest sizes. Big difference in the level of involvement here than during the OV incident. Not to mention refusing to mention this to VE at all while knowing there was a spy there.

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1295335946' post='2580730'] We didn't consider ourselves enemies of VE before they declared war on us, and the same Dajobo logs you pointed to prove it. [/quote] Why did one of your leaders decide to help out a spy against VE and not proceed to inform them of the spy's intention then? Seems like a pretty hostile act.

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1295335626' post='2580713'] Yes, clearly VE went out of their way to try diplomacy and talk to Polar. Clearly that's why our people had to find track Impero down and clearly we tracked Impero down in the first place was to act too cool. Clearly. [/quote] If the #2 of an alliance actively helped a spy and withheld information of said spy against my alliance, I wouldn't bother with contacting them with "diplomacy" at all as it's obvious their government is working against you and talking to them would let them hit peace mode quicker.

People have been clamoring for something to happen, and here it is. Have fun all.

[quote name='The Reccesion' timestamp='1295065030' post='2575728'] Why not? Reps are reps, no? [/quote] These reps are to be paid by him. If you disagree with that, too bad.

[quote name='The Reccesion' timestamp='1295048245' post='2575488'] Can his fan club help pay his reps? [/quote] No.

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1295029090' post='2575234'] There are greater concerns in this matter than your amusement; I'd prefer to see our allies happy long before you get your kicks and giggles. [/quote] I would think it was defending your alliance and your allies backing you to do so.

[quote name='mpol777' timestamp='1294992994' post='2574927'] Be careful what you wish for. [/quote] I know what I'm wishing for.

I hope this opens the door for more announcements and activity from FAN in the future.

[quote name='Mr. Smyth' timestamp='1294984272' post='2574753'] Nope. They never contacted us. [/quote] Instant classic response.

I missed mpol announcements, glad to see you back.

I expect the reps to be paid on time, Damsky.

Stand up for yourself, SOS.