CaptainImpavid

[img]http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/5585/csndecnadc.png[/img] CSN hereby declares war on NADC in accordance with our treaty with Farkistan. "Meet the new war! Same as the old war!" In all seriousness, may NADC be as honorable and amicable an opponent as they proved...about 6 months ago. We can only hope they have as much fun as we will. To arms, brothers!

late smack talk is late

he wasn't, however, the only one making that excuse.

because you signed it and swore to uphold it. someone else breaking it means you either dissolve the treaty or kick that signatory out. holding on to the treaty, one that presumably makes you friends and allies, without the intention of upholding it, means you are no better than dishonest, honorless cowards. you have proven to all of the world that your word means nothing, and from this day hence your only allies will be morons and the hopelessly naive. you had a legitimate and respectable way into this conflict, attacking, with IRON, Farkistan for attacking IRON's ally NSO. That you chose to attack instead a noncombatant group for no apparent reason and in the process abrogate your own word makes one begin to wonder why. Was it perhaps that you wished to avoid having to fight Gre and MHA, who would no doubt be drawn in by Fark? It is, then too bad for you that all this happened anyway, after you'd already sold every scrap of dignity you owned to get away from it.

Oh, Ivan, but Valentine's day isn't for two weeks! You shouldn't have. Seriously, you always give the most thoughtful gifts.

To be completely honest I would be utterly mortified if I ever ended up in an alliance that someone didn't hate on. However, I will say the follow: Our egos aren't in this war. We're not trying to prove a point or settle a grudge, or whatever. We're supporting our friends and allies, and having a fairly good time doing it, and that's about it. We kinda hope that STA is at least having a good time as well, and by all lights they seem to be. So given that there is no ego on the line, and we aren't fighting for our very survival here, I can freely and honestly say that I am already exceedingly proud of what our boys have already accomplished in this war. Which is not by any means to say "Ha we're kicking STA's tuchus," simply that we called our guys to war, they showed up, and on short notice (and less than a full week since a complete overhaul of our military organization) put together a respectable update blitz, and have been just as good at taking their licks without complaint as they have at dishing out punishment. So, when it comes to having a darn good time fighting a fun and respectable enemy, and to hell with whatever anyone else thinks? Yeah, we already win. We win so hard. If STA manages to rally enough to utterly crush us (which I consider honestly as unlikely as us doing the same to them)or if someone else springs to their aid and accomplishes the same, we will be utterly fine with that. As far as the GATO-1V war goes...really? CSN entered a war they knew they absolutely could not win for a cause they didn't believe in, to honor a treaty that had been canceled but the termination clause not yet run out. All as a matter of principle, that one honors the documents you sign else you mean nothing. Clearly a more rank display of cowardice and disgrace has never been seen on the likes of Planet Bob. And yeah it was a while ago, but since I could cut off my thumb and pinky and still count the wars CSN has been in since then on one hand, well...

Sorry, I haven't been watching but have "The Stupidest War Ever," "The Full Retard War," or the "Seriously, Guys? Really? War" been taken? /Stupidest. War. Ever.

not THAT is how you do silly, mildly retarded, yet refreshing entertaining. They didn't go Full Retard. Congratulations

As someone who knows a thing or too about Fark and their balls, and the pit they keep the balls in, and the playplace wherein said pit is found, I find your comments amusing. I mean, you probably don't actually think Fark doesn't have balls, or any such thing, you just wanted to make a joke and talk some smack, and got carried away by the siren song of hyperbole. I understand how it happens. One time, I was trying to tell Jenny Schilheimer about the time I skinned my knee riding bikes with Mark, but, you know, I kinda liked her, so I started talking about how I'd gone off this wicked cool ramp, and I was in the air for SO long, that I totally thought I was flying, and in fact an eagle came and flew next to me, and we high fived, except eagles only have wings instead of hands, so they don't have five, and then when I landed, I was fine, except the ninjas attacked and I was so busy fighting them that I didn't see this car coming and it TOTALLY hit me, and I did a crazy somersault off the hood, and was all "pff, I eat car accidents for breakfast." But Jenny had a crush on Ben Jenkins, it turns out, and she was only talking to me because I sat at his table in art class. So I know all about how easy it is to accidentally take a few moderate liberties with the facts because you're trying to impress someone. No biggie. So instead of trying to correct you, I'll instead tell you a story, about how my life

I can't leave you people alone for 5 minutes, can I? Look folks, like it or not, this ended up being the course of action that seemed collectively the best choice out of a veritable deluge of crappy choices. As far as I can tell the parties involved have been more or less: "Hey, I guess I have to fight you now. That sucks." "Yep, sure is. Well, let's make it fun. Sucks for our mutual friend though." "Yep, couldn't find an easy way around it though, kinda sucks. We told em we were sorry though, and we'd try to make it up to them one day." "Cool. I guess, I should shoot at you now?" "Go right ahead. I'll be doing much the same, if you don't mind." "Please. Also, I'll kick your butt." "Sure you will, chum. Eat hot shrapnel." As you can see, there are no lines for "chorus of screeching psychotics" in this script. I have one with parts for that, but unfortunately it is not so family friendly, and the last person who tried to storyboard it ended up stabbing his own eyes out. Not to say you should stop doing...whatever it is you're doing, but please don't take it as a personal offense if no one listens to what you say, it only means we think you're stupid. I mean, come on OWF. You usually teeter on the edge of retardation, dancing that fine line with the dexterity of a drunken giraffe playing hopscotch. But this time...this time you went full retard. You never go full retard. Anyway, carry on. The caterers will be in with a snack service some time this evening.

Well, to belabor the belabored, but now in stunning new OFFICIALVISION: We weren't thrilled to draw STA. So many people are getting to fight people that they can at least fake a good hate for, but we get stuck with one of the classier, good natured alliances. We hated putting Silence on the spot, and did our best to find a way around it. Sadly, given the stultifying vortex of fail surrounding this conflict, the best we could do was promise not to make it worse by asking for their help if we got countered. Small solace, maybe. I've been a huge fan of Silence since the days of LEN and OTF, when Fark fought OTF in the whatever-we-call-that-other-war-against-polar-now war, and OTF were so groovy and honorable and tenacious that I wanted to sign a MDP with them before the war was even finished. In short, are we sorry it shook out like this? Yes. Did we genuinely agonize over what to do, and made the best choice we could? Yes. Is the root cause of this war really really really really stupid? Yes, yes it is.

no, the difference is that with MDP+ partners we feel that we know someone well enough that we feel confident that they WON'T. Or at least that we'd notice soon enough to not be caught with our pants down. However, if they DID go off the deep end, and we WERE caught with our pants down (and thus never cancelled) and it was a MDP+ treaty, yeah we'd be honoring the treaty. They aren't "Mutual Defense Unless You Go Crazy" treaties, after all. /though now I kinda want to sign one of those with someone...

Also, seriously, send help.

Its a bit more complicated than that, but that is basically the message inherent in any sub-MDP level treaty. More completely, it is "Well, we haven't really had a lot of direct communication until recently, but what little we've seen of each other we like, perhaps even a lot, so we'll set up this relationship that we 99% expect to be as binding as a MDP, but in case of that 1% chance of you going off the deep end like a gibbon on crazy pills and do something that we neither anticipated or like, we'll leave it optional for the time being, and look to upgrade when we've reached that comfortable "sit around all afternoon reading and not really talking to each other but still feeling really glad of each other's company" phase of the relationship.

I resent the implication that the treaty i wrote for Fark/Gre was poorly written. I accept scones and other assorted baked goods as appropriate means of apology.

My point is that infiltration of an enemy alliance has never previously been considered simply an act of war. It was, in the sense that it was reason enough to go to war, but it was never acceptable as a tactic IN a war. Changing the rules to retroactively allow that kind of behavior in wartime DOES open the door for a potential paradigm shift regarding espionage in general. At least in terms of "I know I'm probably going to end up at war with them anyway, so I've got nothing to lose by doing this." When the act was discovered is just as important as when the act took place. Even if TPF did terminate this plan before hostilities ended, and I'm not going to catch up right now on the 40 pages since I last checked to see if they did, it means little. There is no blanket "you are absolved of everything you may or may not have done to anyone who may or may not have been at war with you" clause in peace terms. Committing an act of war against someone is a punishable act, even if there happens to be another larger war on at the time. This would all have taken place sooner, I am sure, had the information become more readily available earlier, but you go to war because of the intel you have, not the intel you might have had.

I'm sorry but why is that such a disconnect? People can find fault enough in an alliances actions to declare war on them DESPITE knowing that that alliance has allies that are obligated to come to their aid. As I and others have said elsewhere, it isn't like the accusations against TPF are exactly surprising. If not this, then something else, etc. Yet alliances persist in maintaining treaties making them honor bound to support their "friend." Not doing so, regardless of how much TPF deserves their fate, is a cowardly act that all are more than justified in mocking. MDPs don't tend to have a "we'll defend you unless you deserve it" clause, or a "we'll defend you unless we don't really want to" clause. The mark of a great alliance is going to war even when the outlook is grim and the cause questionable if the only alternative is dishonoring your name. (and going to war because you've been given promises that you'll have it easy and can bow out quickly doesn't count, either.)

Um, no, because their actions, if successful, wouldn't result merely in the defeat of an enemy, but the pillaging of their home, a potentially fatal poisoning of their community. If this kind of behavior was OK in wartime, it would quickly grow to become acceptable in peacetime as well. You can't let SOME of the genie out of the lamp. So ask yourself, just because you like TPF, or hate the people attacking them, are you willing to accept a fundamental shift in thinking when it comes to espionage? /useless question I know, since hypocrisy being the global sport on Bob, you can say a vehement YES now and then still whine and moan when someone infiltrates your alliance later with malicious intent.

You logic is a little...stunted. "You don't believe me? Ask them. Of course, if they don't say what I did, they're lying. Don't believe me? Ask them..." err...

One instance of nobility does not do much to obviate a tradition of dishonor, deception, and opportunism dating back to the parent alliances that TPF was founded from, especially when evidence comes to light since then that demonstrate that single act was as unique as hens teeth.

As I think has already been mentioned, this was a case of treaty arrangements rather than new members, which also are often delayed in times of war, not for security or other reasons but usually because the parties are generally pretty busy elsewhere. That said, are you implying basically that "Everyone does it, that's why we're more careful in wartime, so if ROK and Athens weren't careful, it is their own fault?" Because yeah that won't fly. The biggest obstacle to an effective defense of TPF is TPF itself. Reading the DoWs my first thought wasn't "Wow" or "What was the proof" or anything else, it was "well that isn't surprising." TPF: Honor When Convenient

I find it absolutely hilarious that TPF's actions are being so blithely excused as "exigencies of war" when if any of the people who are trying to defend this behavior would be enraged beyond all belief if they were the target themselves. But, no, it is all ok, it was war! Violating every long-standing convention about espionage and acceptable conduct in the name of war is fine! But hey if that kind of behavior is ok, groovy, because I'm looking to join a new alliance! I'd be a great, loyal addition, who almost certainly won't try to undermine and fragment your internal stability! Who's hiring?

...So TPF decided to take a page from the TF! formation playbook and try to sabotage and betray people that trusted them? Best of all luck, as if it will be needed, to my Superfriends brothers. TPF, don't worry, you memory will live on. Wherever someone craven turns their back on a friend, whenever a brother tries to slide a knife into his sibling's flank, wherever dishonor reigns, your flag will fly high.

Ha, humorously done. But sadly true in places. Echelon was, once upon a time, one of those alliances that looked like they might be worth getting on with. Of course they ended up working pretty hard to make the people who thought that look like either idiots or posterior fundamental orifices. /Also Hizzy...your sig, is that Buck Island?

For someone that is trying REALLY hard, you're utterly failing at humor