trimm

Not to mention the fact that FAN most assuredly had treaty level relationships, they just didn't plaster them with walls of text and pretty pictures all over the OWF.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1330492364' post='2930486'] I'm curious what wars we chickened out of. We'd go to war all the time if we could get away with it. Sardonic can tell you we're constantly trying to get him to ease up on his rules so we can hit more people. The thing is, there are political gates that prevent us from just attacking whoever we want without good reason. And even if we do have a really good reason, people complain about how we shouldn't've gone to war. In threads like this one. [img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL3.jpg[/img] [/quote] I don't think you really need to defend your war performance to someone from ODN. That's just me though.

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1330491219' post='2930466'] Only if they have enough power to do so. If it's someone even halfway scary they'll just sweep it under the rug, or not invite them to some color bloc. [/quote] I didn't say it made sense to me, I just said that's how they seemed to feel about it. Not to mention that there's practically no one on Bob who just rolls out on general principal these days without a fairly ironclad chance of success, I wouldn't single GOONS out there.

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1330490611' post='2930457'] Building on that, I have a question for Sardonic or whomever else would like to answer. If a member of GOONS conducts a tech raid, and then the raid victim is sent aid by some third party, does this then change the tech raid into an alliance war? [/quote] I won't pretend to speak for GOONS, but they certainly seem to treat an uninvolved third party aiding one of their raid vict...er, targets as a serious escalation if I understand them correctly.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1330484590' post='2930371'] I'm not sure, but maybe Schat will make a thread about it. [img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL5.jpg[/img] [/quote] Does that mean we get to have a debate over what words are acceptable and aren't? Or will it be a debate about when a word is not a word? I know, we can have a hundred page thread where everyone says the same two words over and over again, only with exclamation points!

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1330484454' post='2930368'] Apparently that depends on who you ask. [img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL6.jpg[/img] [/quote] Am I allowed to ask, or will that cause angrier words to be directed at me?

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330484169' post='2930364'] This is a word raid, thank you very much! [/quote] Will it escalate if my friends loan me a dictionary?

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1330481875' post='2930334'] when a war of nations is inconceivable, you can always count on a war of semantics around here. [/quote] A war of words is a war all the same.

Um, ok. Good luck I suppose.

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1330477307' post='2930271'] Not at all; I'm saying you have no right to the cockiness and chest-puffing which your members have exhibited in this thread. You only get away with these things because the lulz-lovers at MK take joy in the spectacle, not out of any respect your alliance has earned for itself on Bob Wise diplomatic planning does not lead to the position GOONS is in. Your planning leaves you in the same position as GGA or Valhalla underneath Pacifica. You may get to have delusions of autonomy, but at the end of the day Daddy MK can dictate with whom you make peace, with whom you go to war, and who you must like and dislike. I pity your entire alliance for it will never breathe free air, not as long as your diplomatic planning remains "wise." [/quote] Look, I'm no real fan of GOONS or MK lately, but even I think it is pushing it to assert that they got where they are just through sycophancy. Sure they happen to have a common interest in doing silly things with their allies, but isn't that the point of allies on some level?

You do realize that even if the interests of DH and PF clash, it is highly unlikely that they would unravel in the matter you are implying?

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330454692' post='2930085'] I will never understand why people ascribe cowardice to our harsh responses. Were we cowards we would have ignored the situation entirely. Stick to calling us bullies, it at least makes sense, in an irritating moralist sort of way. [/quote] Let's quit throwing around the word moralist as an insult. You stated already that you didn't expect everyone to share you worldview, don't undermine your own argument by dropping hot button words around like that. I can see, however, how those opposing viewpoints would be irritating to you after awhile. But, could the same thing not be true of your viewpoint to others by now?

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1330410031' post='2929815'] It doesn't even matter what you just spouted in this post I just quoted. I didn't even read it. There's nothing left to debate. You're certainly welcome to keep going WHAT IF or BUT WHAT ABOUT and YEAH WELL THIS COULD MEAN all day but we're right, you're wrong. Deal with it. [/quote] Yeah, no one really cares what you think, you're right. Glad we're on the same page.

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1330409714' post='2929808'] Their friend wasn't a member of their alliance or officially under their protection. Argument over. [/quote] Why don't you go take your air of superiority and go shove it somewhere pal? Argument over my foot. Who the frak put you in charge of deciding when the debate is over? Last I looked, folks didn't need to be in the same alliance or have a treaty to do something. Moldavi Doctrine for the win and all that?

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1330409189' post='2929801'] Incompetency does not excuse any alliance. They screwed up by not having legitimate allies and aiding a nation at war. That's generally regarded as a bad thing. [/quote] Did MONGOLS make a strategic miscalculation in aiding a GOONS raid target? So it would seem. Did GOONS really have a justification for rolling MONGOLS over the fact that GOONS decided to raid someone who happened to have some friends willing to help rather than a total n00b? Color me unconvinced.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330409029' post='2929798'] No, we would not come down on the raid target like a bag of hammers, just those who interfere. The raid target is largely irrelevant. It is absolutely in our best interests to do this. Crushing alliances of fools like MONGOL? This is why I lead, this is what my alliance lives for. I'm not afraid to say that we as an alliance love combat. Real combat, not raiding. Call us bullies if you must, be we gave them more than one out. [/quote] I appreciate your candor, even if i still pretty much totally disagree with your reasoning.

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1330408826' post='2929795'] You're using too much logic on these worthless dolts. Let me handle this for you. They were given a chance to make things right with GOONS. They could complete a mercy board term (which are usually rather fun, and this one wasn't any different). Instead of legitimately trying to complete the terms, they sent an abrasive lunatic over to complete said terms. And while GOONS have quite the sense of humor, sitting there and insulting them (while asking for mercy, no less) is certainly not the way to get what you want. [/quote] Wow, ok, insults for the win again. The argument that they had anything to make up to GOONS in the first place is rather unconvincing to begin with, although I apprieciate Sardonic attempting to do so rationally rather than by calling people "kid" or "dolt."

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330408506' post='2929792'] Yes, there's an inherent risk. I'd say it's something like AR = IR*CR*DR Anomaly Risk = Inherent Risk * Control (of member) Risk * Detection risk (The risk that the raid was mistakenly affirmed) Where IR * CR can be simplified to RMM: Raid Mistake Malfeasance. But in all seriousness, yes there's a risk, it's a risk that we more than welcome ensuring against, because it can lead to fun situations like this. [/quote] So, if I understand you correctly, this whole war essentially comes down to GOONS saying, "If you fight back in a raid 1 vs 1, ok. But if you go get help, then we'll come down on you like a bag of hammers, just because we have somehow concluded it is in our best interests to do so."

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330407895' post='2929782'] And that outsider refuses to pay reps or other remedies, yes. [/quote] So you don't see it as an inherent risk that a tech raider assumes when picking a target that said target might have friends, even if they are technically unaligned?

So let me see if I understand you correctly, in all seriousness: If a GOONS member gets approval and tech raids someone, and that someone fights back, then the GOONS member is on their own. If a GOONS member gets approval and tech raids someone, and that someone get's outside aid in order to fight back, then we get where we are right now?

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330406605' post='2929768'] Kid, get out of here and let the adults discuss policy. [/quote] And now we come to the character assassinations. You guys really are consistent, aren't you? You argued rather fiercely not that long ago that there was a difference between a tech raid and a war, going so far as to tell anyone who tried to equate the two to "shut up." But now, this time, they are the same thing, because it is convenient for you to now when it wasn't then. I think I've got a pretty good read on the situation, thanks.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330406243' post='2929762'] He didn't "accuratly", whatever that means, note my "shifting stance" (which has not shifted, I might add), any moreso than Tyga's faux moral outrage. He didn't take a side bro~. [/quote] Hey, when all else fails, be a grammar nazi! You're just busting out all the tricks tonight, aren't you?

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330405643' post='2929754'] Yes, somebody of BN, somebody [I]in your bloc[/I], is just another person incoherently yelling at you. GOONS are not trying to stifle any debate. It's not our fault so precious few people find fault in how we handled this situation. [/quote] Actually, he quite accuratly noted your shifting stances on this issue, as I and others have pointed out, and pointed out that these affairs tend to become noisy, pointless affairs, which is exactly what Tyga and I just said. Nice try tho. A for effort. Someone should get you a gold star.

It's a tried and true tactic. Get enough voices shouting loudly, even if they are incoherent, and you can just drown out any opposition with the noise.

[quote name='Velocity111' timestamp='1330404229' post='2929739'] GOONS is not NG, GOONS charter is not NG charter. Anything else? [/quote] How about the fact that Sardonic specifically notes a difference between a tech raid and a war, and in fact insults anyone attempting to equate the two?