Kevin Cash

oh yeah, like all the times npo defended itself in the face of all those folks who have been advocating her destruction since she even existed. because, you know, when the number one alliance defends its right to exist, they're being evil tyrants.

except that their very way of life is being assaulted and they have every right to defend that if they so choose. i agree it wont be for much, karma is probably going to force npo to pink or some ridiculous crap, but as a symbolic gesture it speaks volumes of the kind of respectable people were dealing with.

this is respectable. im not surprised to see a group of nations choose to defend themselves and return what the npo offered them for free in the past. these people have balls. those in this thread nay saying and encouraging them to 'save their pixels' should be ashamed of themselves. wolf is just about as respectable as the best treaty-holding alliance, they stand tall with courage and honor, courage in standing up to those attacking their security, honor in coming to the defense of npo when no treaty demands it to return a favor that was given with no expectation of return, and paying off a debt voluntarily.

nor does the fact that you believe the opposite make it such that the opposite is true.thats the funny thing about opinions, isnt it? except i didnt assert mine as a fact, while you did. pull up a list of all individuals that have been put on 'ezi.' please note this is not zi, pzi, or attacking rerolls who are the same damn character. if you do not have such a list, then you are merely stating your opinion and not a fact.

that breed of ezi i find unacceptable, but one is hard pressed to find more than a handful of instances, and most are ddosers, /b/ombers, and other assorted ooc crooked folks, which i have no problem with ip tracking those unsavory individuals.most of the cases that are thrown under the ezi label are in fact merely pzi cases where a reroll admits, basically, that he is not playing a new character but his old character under a new name, which is the rp equivalent of an exiled politician going by an alias... my opinion is that if they are undertaking such a course that they should not advertise who they are. the level of proof required for the continuation of hostilities is pretty much whatever the community will tolerate. it is my opinion that ip tracing and other ooc methods used to retaliate against exclusively ic offenses is wrong in all cases, but again, i reiterate my belief that this has rarely actually happened, if ever. people are quick to give the most incriminating response and tend to ignore their ic actions when making such accusations, which grossly over-inflates the actual number. i want to point out that i am looking at this from an ooc perspective, and any responses should exclude any ic opinions on the practice of pzi; this is entirely looking at it from the perspective of proper discourse in gameplay. ic objections should be brought up via ic methods and in ic forums, not in this ooc forum.

incorrect. that is like suggesting a person is absolved of murder because the person they harmed no longer exists, which is obviously untrue. erasing a character is not the same thing as erasing history. i suppose a loophole would be if a player rerolled as a character who took extreme (ic) moral objection to the killing of that players previous character. in my mind that is acceptable... but if you want to say 'i hate you because you harmed me in my past life' you just admitted you did not create a new character. in order for proper role play of this loophole you always have to refer to your previous character in the third person. and as silly as it is, breaking rp in this particular way i believe would constitute a valid cause to resume hostilities, although the attackers should provide a chance for that character to retract and re-issue the statements in the third person. it almost seems trivial, but consider from an ic perspective the huge difference between 'i dont support you attacking x person' and 'i dont support you attacking me.' one is merely an ic opinion while the other is an ic admission that he is the same character with which hostilities exist.

i'm afraid spewing propaganda and making ad hominem attacks (like calling me 'dense' for no reason, or otherwise attacking my character as you have done repeatedly, that is the definition of ad-hominem and i can also spell it correctly thank you very much) does not count as 'winning.' it counts as perpetuating a 'no u' battle which is, unfortunately, all cn politics are anymore. except you were the only one saying 'no u' while i was bringing up valid points. of course, youre going to respond and say 'lol you dont have a clue what youre talking about you have no clue' instead of, you know, actually refuting my points. youd rather dance around them and then proclaim im wrong, and get a pat on the back from all the other karmites who believe the propaganda bull****.for your reference since you need it while you're not entirely changing the subject, you are working to undermine my argument by attacking my person instead. but why do i bother, like the 'no u' debate, most of cn discourse also consists of ad-hominem attacks, along with every other logical fallacy known or unknown to man.

i 100% agree that is a person creates a new character, it is their obligation to actually pick up a new character and completely throw away their past personal history. driving a character from the game is alright, it happens all the time in other role-playing games (characters dying in d&d comes immediately to mind, and like cn, d&d is arguably a long-term game). people who find it impossible to let up past grudges when rerolling into a new character, regardless of the name, take this game far too seriously. yes, they have a right to create their own character, but others have a right to punish that character if they perceive it as a threat. the worst case, what i think the op elude to, however is when people intentionally reroll to harm their enemies behind an unknown identity, for example to spy. these people break all concepts of role playing, and are among the few people who i would consider it acceptable to place on this theoretical 'ezi' (with them, ddos'ers and /b/ombers among others, though those are considerably worse individuals). conversely, it is the responsibility of the party enforcing the pzi reroll of the character, that if the person rerolls into a new character and does throw away their personal past with regards to the gameplay, that they also throw away any associations with that former character; they should be free from any and all terms and stipulations, and their new name must be on no blacklists, etc. this is in keeping the spirit of good role play. of course, we rarely see either in this world, probably because of how delicate the emotions of most people are. its easy to pretend youre not upset over the internet, but it is obvious a lot of people take this game far too seriously. people use the mods as a weapon, they talk about ic things like pzi as if they are an ooc event, they show pure ooc hatred to other human beings who play this game, the list goes on. if you do any of those things... you need to step back, calm yourself, and realize that cn is just a game. hell, its barely any different from d&d, only the numbers are stored and calculated on a website rather than paper. if you wouldn't hate the guy sitting next to you for attacking your elf wizard with his orc warlord, why to you take it so personally when somebody attacks you in a pretend internet game?

you do realize you dodged all of my points with ad-hominems, correct?-why did neither top nor ov contact any ranking member of the npo in the 40 minutes between the abrupt and unexpected disconnection event and the start of the war? this is a very large time frame. please answer this question directly. -why would sethb hand over the most incriminating logs when he could hand over a snippet he thought would put him in a good light? he was trying to make it look like blackstone just came up one day and gave him a screenshot, trying to pretend that relations did not exist between them. -telling me to shut up and fight you? sounds a lot like what npo and friends used to say. why, dont like being put on the spot?

the irony is that killing commies is the only good thing nor ever did(yes i do in fact hate everyone)

that was more so directed at odn as a whole. im curious about your past now that you bring it up though.

afraid you might have to dump yet another treaty to save your stats?

i already said i agreed that that part of what you wrote was accurate, i dont know what the issue here is ooh, bold, italics, and underlined... its almost like you think this is a really important point youre trying to make. ill bite.why is it up to ov/top exclusively to decide if/when talks have ended, and furthermore, why was there a span of forty minutes (two thirds of an hour) during which neither ov nor top attempted to restore communications with any ranking member of npo? did they just decide that 'oh well moo lost his internet i guess well pick this up tomorrow?' that seems like a rather stupid idea as npo was growing noticeably impatient as the logs carried on. contrary to popular karmite thought, war propaganda does not count as research. that your side continues to claim npo accepting intel is of any real relevance amuses me in ways i cannot describe. you continue to ignore the wild differences between passively accepting intel that concerns ones security, and actively seeking intel to undermine the military tactics of an alliance.furthermore, to argue that npo should have 'been smarter than that' is amusing in that they already overlooked a number of obvious and significant details, making a number of major screw-ups that gave the karmites all the fuel they needed to spin to their hearts content. i have made no such claim, perhaps it is you who believes this?

not even page one and this thread is already delivering

[ooc]you know the risks behind this, you know there are elements who would seek to use your name as a recruitment post for... less than savory irl organizations. tread carefully and be ever so vigilant, and above all else, do not be ignorant simply to spite history. do not allow the mistakes that killed your forerunners to manifest themselves within your ranks.[/ooc] [ic]meh, necromancy.[/ic]

didnt i pretty much say that? it is a far jump from 'npo assumed talks were over' and the karma tagline of 'npo intentionally blindsided ov while feigning peace talks.' im glad you at least can admit i am right on this one and what is npo was unable to identify the source? what if that source didnt come from ov but elsewhere? what if it was just 'rumors' (albeit highly secret rumors) and there existed no singular source, but they wanted to make ov believe there was? there are a wide variety of alternatives to npo having a plant in ov, and you seem more than happy to ignore all the other possibilities that make npo look even a little less evil than you want them to appear.my friend i can see through the !@#$%^&*, its not very hard.

i think its cute, all the nobody alliances coming out of the woodwork now that they know its safe. next thing you know they'll be demanding reps for all the 'hard work' they put in to this war.

more respect to those alliances if they do uphold that fact, however as a poorly worded instrument of surrender this runs the risk of setting a dangerous precedent that will inevitably be abused by not-so-benevolent victors. i would advise karma to be more precise when writing their terms.

i think its mildly amusing that karma cant make up its mind on whether or not harsh terms are ok and tries to skirt around the fact in a variety of ways

the harsh terms that were imposed on tdsm8 during the last great war. people were talking about it a couple pages ago.furthermore, nobody responded to my previous point, that mcxa was left defenseless, isolated, and more importantly, assigned no protectors by these terms

it is mildly amusing to watch karma justify their crime with examples of the past crimes they claim to oppose.

well the nicest thing i can say is 'at least you didnt extort a protectorate' term 7 i like and if i were mcxa i wouldnt need it written in the terms id be enforcing it on my own will no outside aid? wasnt lue the last alliance to receive that? damn that goes back quite a ways. one thing i am dissapointed in is you not only disarmed them and isolated them, but you did not put them under your protection. that is a very big one right there. whats with that? i think that in itself is an unprecedented level of harshness. (term 6 alludes to 'protectors' but nowhere in this agreement does it explicitly state who exactly those protectors are.) i was also hoping people could look past decommissioning improvements for once, but at least factories arent on that list, i guess. silly to see missile defense wonders are still being forced into decommission...

the talks where they were pressuring ov, and in all likelihood bluffed that they had hardcore proof (they probably had knowledge of what was going on but not any hard evidence). ov failed to call the bluff and verified npo and friends belief that they had been working to undermine the npo.those talks.

if npo zid everyone who gave them information vital to their defense, well, why would anyone hand them information at all if they did that? do you realize how absurd it is, what youre asking for? i guess npo should also zi everyone they have a treaty with too, because they helped npo protect itself?it is clear that sethb was actively seeking information, while npo passively accepted intel from a voluntary source, a source they quite possibly did not even know the identity of. the 'zi trade' you propose is not only counter productive and a silly suggestion, but in all likelyhood it couldnt even be fufilled. finally, peace talks were not happening, after moo lost his internet connection, ov failed, for something like 40 minutes, to contact any member of the npo to resume negotiations. this indicated to moo, who had made it clear he was having internet issues, that ov considered the negotiations over. while it was certainly a great lapse of judgment to not verify his assumption, it was by no means the malicious treachery that the karma spin doctors want you to believe.

at the very least they knew full well what they were receiving... though the remaining pieces to the puzzle contradict that idea and suggest that ov was working rather closely to bc because ov posted them in the channel where the talks were going on? npo hired ov to spy on itself i guess if you want a line to spin it with.