Felix von Agnu

A unilateral doctrine, and GGA nations trading with nations in other green alliances is hardly what I would call cooperation with other green alliance. I think you are missing the communication aspect of cooperation.

[quote name='Byron Orpheus' date='31 May 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1275362361' post='2318539'] Well, that would be were we disagree. I am after actual value and actual cooperation, not symbols or appearances. As I said, we are quite fine with playing nice with the other green alliances-- if anything it seems uncooperative to me that their cooperation depends on our being a member of UJA...it seems to me that the real spirit of green unity would to be unified no matter what paper allegiances say. [/quote] Sitting in your own corner of green while you have your rather lame doctrine of Non-Aggression is hardly cooperation. It is actually quite the opposite.

[quote name='Byron Orpheus' date='31 May 2010 - 06:03 PM' timestamp='1275343386' post='2318170'] What exactly would joining change, including our level of cooperation? Trades and peace are the only things that UJA really accomplished in the first place, and we are managing just fine on our own with both. That doesn't mean they are our enemies, it simply means there is no reason for us to rejoin. [/quote] I honestly think there is something to be said about the symbolic value of joining a color unity treaty. If nothing else, it accomplishes the same thing as the emerald doctrine, without any of the silliness and with the appearance of cooperation. Anyways, I with the best of luck to the new GGA gov. I hope things go well for you from here on out.

The only thing that disturbs me about those logs is the gov of GGA itself. I thought the coup was supposed to turn GGA into a better alliance. Now it seems like JB just wants to use the alliance to kill VE. Where it gets worse is where the rest of the gov (minus koolaid_ken, you honestly impressed me) just goes along with this plan. Running an alliance isn't about accomplishing a personal goal, its striving to accomplish what goals the community wishes, and what the community needs.

[quote name='Lusitan' date='26 May 2010 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1274928349' post='2312944'] Side note: Zenith, Nevermore and Carthage sigs are there because Legend fails at reading [/quote] I just thought you guys were being sentimental.

Its nice to see the Train still chugging along. Congrats Europa, you signed on with some good people.

It looks like this cancellation ended up working well for both parties.

Welcome to the Neighborhood, Corporation!

You know, its amazing (and sad), how any thread involving GOONS devolves into this type of debate. Anyways, congrats on the flag!

I am looking forward to getting to know more Kronos members.

Congrats on Existing! Do you have a protector yet? Edit: Do you have an IRC channel?

Congrats Brigade! I hope Yukon Confederacy finds a good home with you.

I doubt a PIAT will stop raiding all that well once that protectorate is expired. 'Grats I suppose.

I will never forget what Zenith has done for me in the past, I feel indebted to you. I still remember drafting the MDoAP between TPF and Zenith. Best of luck in your new homes! I know you'll all shine in TFD. For the last time o/ Zenith

[quote name='Desperado' date='20 May 2010 - 12:47 AM' timestamp='1274330837' post='2304426'] [img]http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo239/beilsnich/kitchenovenfire-hawk.jpg[/img] This is what happens when you let mhawk try and bake cookies. [/quote] [img]http://bagelartshopping.com/shop/images/muffins.jpg[/img] That is what happens when you let mhawk bake cookies.

[quote name='Gopherbashi' date='20 May 2010 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1274372261' post='2305268'] If I could describe TFD in one word right now, it would be gobble. Gobble gobble gobble. Slow down, TFD, you'll get a stomachache. [/quote] TFD is the new Mergenorok! We were planning to merge into Zenith, but you know how that would have ended anyway.

[center][img]http://www.cn-nevermore.net/images/icons/Announcement Banner.png[/img][/center] Hello all, I have the displeasure of making an announcement I had hope I would never have to make. As of this posting the alliance Nevermore will be disbanded. We simply hit a wall, and inactivity make it near impossible for us to move forward. Instead of perpetually struggling to keep going, we decided to move into a new home, TFD. We would like to thank Zenith, who have protected us since day one, and were always there for us. We would also like TFD who were nothing short of amazing as well, who were there as much as Zenith. We'd also like to extend our thanks to the rest of the PnL Train, for protecting us and providing a nice community of alliances. I cannot think of any greater group of people. For anyone else I have not mentioned, please do not take offense, I can no longer keep track of all the people who have supported us along the way. With one last hoist of our flag, we will fade back into the night. [center][img]http://www.cn-nevermore.net/images/icons/NevermoreFlag1.png[/img][/center] [b]Signed,[/b] Anubis - Internal Dark Lord Agnu - External Dark Lord EDIT: the AA of Nevermore will be under the protection of the PnL train for 14 days.

Chaz as MoFA? o_O On a side note, congratz to both parties.

[quote name='Daikos' date='18 May 2010 - 11:15 PM' timestamp='1274238936' post='2302864'] A downgrade would've brought them down to an ODP (I believe) which they already have through NOIR. [/quote] True, but the symbolic value of keeping a downgraded treaty may have saved both sides a decent amount of grief.

[quote name='Choader' date='18 May 2010 - 10:52 PM' timestamp='1274237555' post='2302838'] From an outsider's perspective I'd say Nemesis did the right thing here. If your alliance and an ally are on different paths it takes more integrity to nip future problems in the bud rather than turning a blind eye until it blows up in your face. Why shouldn't Nemesis cut a treaty with an ally who develops relations with someone they dislike? It's the proper thing to do and if more alliances took a firm stance with these situations we'd all be better off for it. Sure, it's only an ODP but suppose LoSS defended TOOL at some point in the future, Nemesis would either face the embarrassment of not helping a high level ally or find themselves being dragged into a conflict on the opposite side of where other allies were. LoSS should have realized that playful socializing is not in itself grounds for a signing a contract with an alliance. Every treaty of any level an alliance signs needs to be weighed against existing ones for compatibility, then if they don't mesh well you need to choose which one is more important to you. Unfortunately rather than making that decision themselves they made Nemesis make it for them. [/quote] As much as I agree with you (especially the second paragraph), I think cancelling over a ODP (or PIAT with Optional Def. clause w/e) is still a little over the top. If nothing else, downgrade the treaty between the two alliances. It seems obvious that for the most part the friendship is intact. If LoSS ever got into a spot Nemesis didn't like they would have no obligation to help.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='13 May 2010 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1273767318' post='2296996'] IRON is clearly culpable for their attacks on MK with no valid reason. Gremlins are not the sole arbiters of justice; I've said as nauseum that [b]we are all[/b] obligated to uphold justice. It is my belief that IRON recognizes their moral failing but thinks they can "slip by" with not admitting it because they are stronger. I believe that because the alternative is that they don't actually see any moral failing in their actions (which would make them pathetic if true) [/quote] So what about the moral failings of TOP, DAWN, and friends? Aren't you obligated to attack them by your logic?

[quote name='Derantol' date='11 May 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1273608447' post='2295047'] Actually, I think I understand the first piece of that one. He's saying that if we admit that we're wrong, to a power that can't defeat us, it's more sincere than if we admit that we're wrong to a person holding a gun to our head. I'd disagree, on the basis that it can be just as sincere, even under stressful circumstances. The difference is that it is *definitely* sincere in the first case, while it might not be in the second. [/quote] Either way it could be insincere. I disagree with his stance though. I think admitting you were wrong to the victims would always be more meaningful than doing so to a 3rd party.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='11 May 2010 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1273607489' post='2295022'] It's not a grudge and it's not petty. IRON must acknowledge the moral failings of their actions. [/quote] Which they have essentially done in their surrender to C&G and friends. Of course you're just going to come back with "Well, we don't think they have." Which is just going to lead to a circle of debate. Honestly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you attempted to gut their alliance in an attempt to "allocute them." If you want allocution, tell them how you think they can allocute themselves. Unless of course you are operating under the idea that an unconditional surrender is equal to an allocution.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='11 May 2010 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1273607046' post='2295001'] The entire cyberverse is victimized if IRON is permitted peace without an allocution. That The Gremlins are the only ones putting themselves at risk to demonstrate this is circumstantial. [/quote] You speak so much of an allocution, but what end will that serve? The real victims here have put this matter behind them, they have been satisfied. All that stands now is a petty grudge between Gramlins and IRON.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='11 May 2010 - 03:25 PM' timestamp='1273605933' post='2294970'] There isn't even a horse here; there is only a red spot on the ground. [size="5"]Surrender, admission of defeat and agreement to pay reparations are not the same as admitting wrong.[/size] You cannot conclude that such is "good enough for CnG to serve as an admission of wrongdoing" CnG has asserted no such thing, and even if they did it would not satisfy The Gremlins that reparations with no allocution are inadequate. The Gremlins are at war with IRON. This is a relevant war in which we were already engaged for this purpose. Doing what is right does matter; and I have the ability to make a difference in standing against IRON. I haven't done anything personally? I've been near ZI and back this war. I've been fighting the entire time. I am here fighting now. I am standing in the doorway opposing [b]you[/b] and you want me to demonstrate my cause by vacating to oppose somebody else? One day at a time, Gamemaster. [/quote] Despite you saying the contrary, I can't see anything other than Gramlins playing Policeman with this whole mess. What gives Gramlins the right to determine what is proper restitution, but not the victims?