Banedon

From what I was reading on the Legion boards and the various threadnoughts during the war, I already knew the GOONS/MK were being petty little pansies. This just confirms it. DH/PB wanted a fast blitzkrieg of a curbstomp and instead they got stuck in protracted trench-warfare. Instead of just rolling over and playing dead, the coalition kept hurting them. Admittedly our coalition co-ordination sucked, and even our Legion planning was woefully inadequate to the task. But we all kept slogging away for 90+ days against seemingly half the planet and that just wasn't supposed to happen. Reading the failure that VE went through left me laughing out loud and shaking my head. You have to *work* to achieve that level of stupid. VE: We DoW on Avalon! Avalon: We repond to your DoW! VE: GOONS! Make Avalon stop! Make them stop right this minute! They can't attack us! This is an escalation! Dear god VE, did your leadership eat paste as a kid?

[quote name='Drai' timestamp='1305141406' post='2710200'] That's assuming you completely ignore the 6+ wars a lot of our top tier fought prior to this point in time (some of us were involved in 10+). [/quote] If the hypocrisy fits... You and your allies castigated NPO and Legion for hiding our top tier in peace mode to preserve our strength. NPO finally comes out and you hide your top tier in peace mode to preserve their strength. You and your allies said that you could not, and would not allow such a strategy to succeed. And yet you are now using the exact same strategy. You are nothing but cowards, liars, and hypocrites. Welcome to the New World Order. "Do as I say, not as I do."

Do as much damage as you can NPO!

I just bought a moon base so forgive me if I'm asking stupid questions... maybe up date the OP with some basic FAQ stuff? Do I need to move anything but the mine to get the full bonus? Like does the base only cut 4% off infra expenses when it's on the 100% spot?

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1304614958' post='2706923'] I don't think Kowalski evaluated the reasons why ODN wanted the apology, Banedon, which is the reason that him being glad to see an apology (etc) does not necessarily imply agreement with certain principles Schattenmann mentioned above. It's elementary. [/quote] I can't claim to know Kowalski's mind, I'm not a mind reader. I do have a hard time understanding how anyone could be glad an apology was given without also supporting the reason(s) stated for the apology's neccessity. I can draw an analogy if you'd like but I'm sicking of reading crazy analogies in these threads.

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1304610797' post='2706883'] Now, that's putting words in his mouth. Naughty, naughty. [/quote] No. He's not. ODN's protectorate is sending ODN tech in the middle of a shooting war. CoJ tells the protectorate to knock it off. Aid packages to combatant alliances have been a CB for ages. That's what triggered the "6 Million Dollar War". And now ODN makes CoJ appologize for antagonizing their protectorate for even talking about how aid can be a valid CB. So I guess that means that ODN/DH/CnG/TOP/PB no longer consider tech dealing to alliances actively at war a valid CB? So I suppose if NpO or STA or Legion decided to send tech to NPO while their upper tier is getting crushed, you guys would be cool with that? Afterall, you just made CoJ sign terms stating that even telling a small alliance what they are doing could be a seen as a CB was inappropriate. What would have happened if CoJ had not stopped at conversation but actually "Done something about it."? You'd be redeclaring on us in a second if we aided NPO in a similar fashion. You're hypocrites and liars, and bad ones at that.

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1304577830' post='2706705'] Roq made a blog almost exactly like Ardus's post months ago. This isn't some new position here. [/quote] Do you even read your own propoganda? DoomHouse was changing it's story more often then a teenage girl changes her clothes in a department store! If you look back at the 200+ threadnought, I think you find a different reason given every few pages. Congrats on your victory, we tried to make it as drawn out and painful as possible. I'm sure we'll have a rematch in 7 months. Ultimately you imposed these reps "Because you could.". Be careful with this monster you spawned, eventually the world turns.

You have got to be kidding me. There is no reason for us to be paying that kind of blood money when we know that this will just kick right back up in 6 months.

DH/PB started this war. If you want it to stop then lean on them to give us terms we can live with. Otherwise, deal with it.

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1303816634' post='2699721'] A tribute to freedom and you post an american flag? LOL. [/quote] America declared independence in 1776. That's what he means. Back to the topic... Congrats Valhalla, I'm sure we'll be seeing you again in the near future. Seeing MHA bursting at the seams made look at all the sactioned alliances. The only sanctioned alliance smaller then Legion is RIA. So since MHA is almost twice the size of the next largest alliance, do we all just bow down to our towel bearing overlords? I didn't think anyone was that large anymore until I looked.

[quote name='trance addict' timestamp='1303751543' post='2699289'] a week later, people are still moaning about a simple war declartion. And here I thought a peace agreement was about to be reached [/quote] When one side of a negotiation loses trust that the other side is negotiating in good faith it does tend to slow things down some.

[quote name='greatmagnus' timestamp='1303332697' post='2694849'] This thread gets better and better as time goes on. Reasoning: Many people are screaming at the fact that TOP attacked right when peace was about to happen, and yet as time goes on the other side has still not surrendered. The argument pretty much refutes itself as time passes. [/quote] Legion is now fighting DH, PB, CnG, and TOP. I don't think NPO is fighting that many alliances. And we are still standing, still fighting, still causing damage. Morale on our boards is high, aid is flowing, and people are cycling into and out of peace mode. Militarily we know we can't win, but we're prepared to make the this a Phyrric victory for you. Your coalition views TOP attacking Legion as simply formalizing a re-deployment. Our coalition views it as an escalation and an insult. Both view points have merit and have been argued to death. To each their own. With TOP declaring on us, the punitive measures included as terms, and the general foot dragging by the DH/PB/CnG coalition, we just don't see any reason to trust anything we hear. The war started as "Every. Thing. Must. Die." and then you attacked NPO for the crime of existing. You then lay terms of extortion or extermination upon our defensive coalition. Are you beginning to see how our side might wonder what point there is to renting peace? Once your side gets bored and the terms end, you'll just turn on us again if you think you can. Doesn't really make us want to stop trading nukes when there's at least even money that we'll be right back here inside 6 months.

Awesome, another alliance adds to the pile. Seriously how many alliances are we fighting now? All of DH/PB/CnG, add TOP... am I forgetting anyone?

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1302675789' post='2689922'] This makes no sense. Soft power is the ability to set the agenda to advance your objectives. If GOONS have soft power 'because of who their friends are' then their friends must have the soft power. Or (as I assume you're trying to say) GOONS have soft power are use it to project the hard power of their friends. Either way, your very first statement makes no sense which doesn't exactly bode well for the rest of your paragraph. [/quote] My understanding of the post Ardus made was that GOONS by themselves can project Soft Power and get what they want with little or no actual violence, mere threat is enough. I think that assessment is wrong. As you said, any claim GOONS might have to Soft Power comes from their allies. I'm not sure how remarking that this Soft Power is not inherent GOONS but outside their alliance makes the rest of my argument invalid, but to each their own. [quote] As you have already alluded to, GOONS have some rather competent allies. Allies who will aid them. This huge funding capacity, along with their superior recruitment, means they have a huge potential for growth. This war (and pre-war evidence) shows us that GOONS, Umbrella and MK have the highest aid slot use on Bob, something that can't be said for other low ANS alliances like, say, Legion. [/quote] I don't have the recruitment data to do more then make a guess so forgive me if I say something that is later proven wrong. GOONS recruit from a pool, some would say swamp, that thrives on conflict and mayhem. Nothing wrong with that, but once the war dies down GOONS numbers will drop. How much of GOONS growth is because they have good recruiters and how much of their growth is because Bob's current environment provides ideal conditions remains to be seen. In the past Legion has been castigated for being weak because our average nation strength was much lower then that of our peers. Part of that is because, as you said, we aren't as efficient at using slots as we ought to be. The other part of that is because during the peace, we were recruiting more then our fair share of what few new nations are created. [quote] Wait, so just before GOONS had lots of soft power, and now suddenly that soft power is useless because of the multilateral framework that GOONS accidentally found itself in? Right... If GOONS have soft power, and have placed themselves in an important multilateral system then they clearly do have influence. Influence is soft power. Honestly, until I saw the Legion tag I was wondering what was wrong with you. [/quote] As I said before, Ardus seemed to be saying that GOONS by themselves have the ability to influence people. I simply disagree with him. GOONS requires the support of their allies in the dominant power structure. To be included in this structure is a mark a deft political maneuvering and strong personal relationships. It doesn't mean that if the structure didn't exist that they would still be able to project anything. For example, if PB/DH/CnG did not exist I believe that MK would still be very influencial as a power broker. MK is a large, well-run, respected, powerful alliance. You could make or break blocs, wars, and generally throw your weight around without having to throw nukes as well. GOONS are a large alliance. But they don't appear to be well run from the outside, certainly not respected, and they certainly aren't very powerful in the absolute sense. If PB/DH/CnG weren't all together, GOONS would be just another tech raiding alliance. I just don't see GOONS being dangerous, influencial, or relavent to the larger alliances all on their own currently. [quote] Oh deary me. I can't honestly think of a single time when Legion was on top. But I can say with certainty that Legion has always been a complete and utter joke. You exist out of habit. If I had a dong for each time someone has said that Legion was about to 'resurge' I would probably have a warchest again. You have four years to turn it around, and you've persistently remained sub-par. There is no danger of Legion ever 'being on top.' [/quote] Granted, the time Legion was on top was back at the dawn of Bob. But we've manged to survive despite all the hatred and violence directed at us. We achieved Sanction in spite of the world, not because of it. Will we ever achieve domination like NPO? No, we don't want to live that way. Will we ever be king of the heap like were in the distant past? Doubtful. Out of curiosity, what's 'par'? Seriously, I'd like to know. Our 'sub-par' alliance has survived everything that the citizens of Bob have ever tried to throw at us. We re-achieved Sanction with most of the world wanting to spit in our eye or slit our throat. We are being torn down yet again, but we will survive. If that's sub-par, then so be it.

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1302663716' post='2689834'] I wouldn't wave it away, but GOONS' 1) soft power and 2) potential are so immense (especially the latter of the two) that a great deal of their statistical weakness is diminished in the eyes of the world leaders. If you reserve "great powers" for the very top tier alliances they may have a way to go, but not far. They are an exceedingly influential alliance, far beyond their statistical measure. [/quote] I would disagree for several reasons. First, GOONS have soft power, but not because of who they are, but who their friends are. They are part of a bloc of blocs, a continuum, that currently can completely dominate the political and military spheres of Bob. Second, GOONS have the same potential as any other large alliance with low average nation strength rebuilding after a huge nuclear war. Which would include pretty much every single major alliance at this point. By thier own admission, GOONS get bored with peace. Once the shooting stops I'm guessing some of them will leave. This reduces thier potential as well. Do GOONS punch above their weight? Yes they do. It's because they've solidly implanted themselves in the currently dominant power structure, not some special quality that only GOONS possess. I would posit that GOONS by themselves are not very influencial at all. Their friends however, are. I personally find that to be a deploreable state of affairs, but all things change with enough time. Once Legion was the strongest AA on Bob. Then we were the largest. Then we survived a disbanding and spent years rebuilding. We regained our Sanction, and now we lose it again. We've been at the top, we've been at the bottom, we've been waffling around in the middle the past year or so. Now we're hitting another low point, and eventually we'll be back on top again.

[quote name='NowaCorp' timestamp='1302550925' post='2688678'] I'm glad to hear that another alliance has come to see that further fighting is pointless and completely unnecessary. [/quote] I agree as well. The war can be over tonight if you want it to be. Drop your rep terms and the shooting will stop. But you seem to think that NPO will accept extermination, and the Legion will accept extortion. If "You exist." is now the accepted standard for declaring wars, Legion is not going to give you a cent. Why reward bad behaviour just so you can turn around and attack us again once you get bored? If that means we're still fighting in December, so be it. You'll not get a penny from Legion, now or ever.

[quote name='blueski' timestamp='1302220482' post='2686409'] Unless you manage to defeat us you're going to pay reps. [/quote] I forsee this thread going to 400 pages and we'll still be shooting it out in December. You won't get a dime from Legion, now or ever.

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1302168760' post='2686094'] Negotiation 101. When two parties deem the terms offered by the other part unacceptable the responsibility falls upon the party with less leverage to concede on their demands in a way that, while not compromising completely their position, makes it more favorable to be accepted by the party with greater leverage. [/quote] When the terms offered by one side to the other is "Die." there's not much room to negotiate. In short, we'll still be fighting this war at Christmas.

Awesome, we're all going to die. Let us dance in the radiation, and make beautiful mutant love-children together.

When NpO was attacked, NpO asked us to hold back, so we did. After NPO was attacked, two things became clear. First, one way or the other, we were going to get dragged into this war. Second, reparations weren't going to be how this ends. NPO already paid it's blood money in Karma and now DH/PB/et al wanted a second helping. Doomhouse, especially GOONS, are demanding monetary reps that are high, but generally doable. Except when it comes to Legion and NPO. The terms for us are simply extortion and extermination respectively. Doomhouse is pissed that we're not fighting the war in the manner they expected, or on a timeline they would like. They wanted to knock us back to the stone age, loot the remains, and they wanted to be done with it last month. Since we have not obliged them by rolling over on command and taking a beating until they are satisfied, DH is making examples of us and our allies. If you want the war to be over, drop the reps, declare white peace, and it's over tonight. Otherwise, get ready for a very long war. Legion has tried to move in different circles FA-wise but no one was interested in dancing with us. From the treatment of NPO we know that reps won't bring us peace, so we won't pay them. So here we stand, and we will not give anyone anything to empower themselves at our expense. Drop the reps, drop the wars, or we'll still be fighting this war at Christams.

What GOONS want: $2 Billion What GOONS will get: $0

Come on in, the radiation's fine!

GOONS, and the rest of the screaming mob, attacked NPO out of the blue because your side didn't get enough blood money from Karma. If a year's worth of reps wasn't enough, then there isn't any point in denying you just want us dead. I'm sorry but we have no intention of dying. Not today, next month, or next year. We will fight this war in a manner of our own choosing, and if that means that we're still fighting this in January 2012, so be it. If you don't like how we choose to fight the war you started, that's your problem.

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1299226407' post='2652285'] NPO can surrender and get very mild terms pretty much any time due to the nature of the conflict, and the various alliances on their side can surrender and pay reps according to their entrance point and capability to pay reps. [/quote] NPO paid the heaviest reps in the history of planet Bob at the end of the Karma war. You and the rest of your coalition attack NPO out of the blue for no reason, and expect them to pay you for the privilege? What makes you think that NPO has any interest in paying off another group of attackers, since it didn't didn't buy peace the last time. I have no idea what you think the Legion should pay for jumping in to help defend an MDP parter from an unwarranted attack is. But I can tell you what you will get. Nothing. You hate NPO, NpO, Legion, and our allies. We get that, and we don't care you hate us. In some cases the feeling is mutual. For most alliances, we just shrug our shoulders and add their name to the ever-growing list of alliances and coalitions that would like to see Legion dead for some ancient reason. We don't hate you, we simply don't care. We aren't going to get white peace, there will be no agreeable terms. Your conduct and message leaves us with only one conclusion, to lose is to be destroyed. From our perspective, we're already fighting a guerilla war.

The pip should be... epic... Congrats RIA