Drostan

Being a former Spartan and retaining some familiarity with the protocols of that alliance, I have to wonder how Sparta can condone this action? Sparta has disallowed any tech raiding at all as immoral and so putting over half an alliance in anarchy in pursuit if tech seems quite out of stride with Spartan policies. Now if you mean to say that you plan to stand by your allies, sure, that was assumed (at least by me). But surely you don't believe the pathetic attempts to claim that there is no particular difference between raiding an individual and spending time coordinating attacks between two alliances on an entire AA?! This was no mere mistake, no moment's thought, this was a deliberate and planned action by which Athens intended to make a statement. I find myself wondering that they could have done all this simply to re-open the debate on tech-raiding.

The timing of this treaty is hilarious as is the fact that it is an optional aggression and defence treaty. That's one alliance down, now if you can just sign one with every other alliance on Planet Bob, we'll be right back at square one. Anyway, congratulations on the treaty. Perhaps it will be upgraded into something more than an 'out' against being called a bandwagoner in the future. Athens seem like pretty unflinching allies, and so I think this could become valuable despite my obvious reservations about it.

I'm sorry, I do agree that you have to stick by your allies, but did that require a threatening topic to make clear? Who really thought that MK would stay out of it if someone attacked Athens tonight? Get real. This is posturing. I repeat, I appreciate sticking by your allies, but you're essentially saying "don't worry, MK will handle justice from now on" and asking everyone else to turn the other cheek. If two members of Frost Bite had coordinated a mass "tech raid", do you think you would accept the answer "we will deal with this in-house"? I doubt it. Actions should have consequences. And while I am certainly not out for Athenian blood (having spent the last year closely allied to them), I think it would have been better to convey your fraternity with Athens by defending them if someone attacked rather than slapping the whole community in the face with it in advance. I have difficulty reconciling these two sentences from the same post, Delendum: It seems to me that the implication here is that the mistake was causing negative PR for Athens and her allies. I have yet to hear anything that doesn't more or less boil down to: "Athens made a mistake because this blew up in our faces. Otherwise though, picking on the obscure, no matter their numbers, is perfectly acceptable as they should be in a more relevant alliance if they don't want to get rolled." Honestly, I may not even disagreeing with that assessment necessarily, but let's at least talk straight about it. This wasn't a simple mistake. This was planned. I am not saying that you should cancel on Athens. I am saying that this whole situation is ridiculous and dangerous. You are asking Planet Bob to have a great deal of faith in MK right now and that would probably come off better if you weren't practically demanding it at gunpoint.

Agreed fully on this. While I do think that Karma was a step in the right direction, it was an incomplete step. The atmosphere still requires that someone submit to the authority of a larger bloc or alliance in order to gain internationally-recognized sovereignty. Things will still move by way of swaying multiple blocs to consolidate their power against some other. We can do better. But for that, people need to get more comfortable with less treaties imo. I will consider this world in a state of health when two alliances can actually fight one another over their differences without becoming quickly dwarfed by the conflict that results amongst their more powerful allies. Curbstomps are an illness and this planet needs a cure.

You'll forgive me if I fail to see how that is not significantly different than one group using them and everyone else merely absorbing them. I agree though that the 'Othering' labels are annoying and usually are used to side-track debates.

I appreciate that you feel obligated to defend the less sane and reasonable opinions on this matter, but honestly, I beg your pardon. I sincerely would like to understand how many who became part of Karma went on to use the same tactics as the Continuum to maintain their power. Does that not imply that there remains some particular pole of power that is using said tactics to this day? His only specific mention is of stickmen, but the idea that they could stand in for the Continuum is laughably absurd, no? If you think you can translate from that into sane-speak, I would be glad to listen to it. EDIT: Also, see Bob's post above for my thoughts your opinion that only power dynamics have changed as if that weren't considerable.

Someone has to be the puppet master if it's a conspiracy. That's just how it works. Especially if you believe NPO was baited into attacking. You can't have a conspiracy without conspirators and so I am genuinely interested to whom you would give the credit. And try not to be too general. Be particular if you can. Citadel has a lot of power simply because it is very hard to even attack many of their upper tiers. It is interesting that you think Citadel is behind the curve. It almost sounds like you're implying that there are forces moving against them. Are you part of some sort of anti-Citadel conspiracy? Citadel would be hard to get at no matter who banded together. Do I think it can be done? Yes. Do I think it is likely any time soon? No. The treaty web remains far too cluttered and there are too many ties to the 'other side'. I don't think Citadel is the new bad. But I do think there is significant resentment against them out there and I am sure they will be working on that. The fact of the matter is that not everyone is in it just for power. Community and friendship are not just euphemisms used to ensnare more power. It is interesting how stark the contrast is between you and your alliance mate's views on the world. He doesn't seem to think anything has changed at all and that some Karma-based entity is now using the same means of staying in power that the Hegemony did. Any idea why he might think that? It's just interesting because you seem to think we're in a Mexican stand-off of power. I ask this question in sincerity because I wish to know what entity he is describing. I could also do with more clarification about how Citadel is 'behind the curve'.

There is a wide gulf between being displeased with your current bloc and deciding to head in a different direction, and actively assembling a group to topple the biggest alliance in CN. But you can see how one might transition into another. I think honestly that some alliances have such a slave mentality that they NEED to believe that they were tricked by some superior force. They need to believe that some bigger, badder, bad @#$% totally changed the game (figure of speech) on them by the mere force of their personality. The truth is that NPO did a terrible job of maintaining their relations and managed to make a lot of people mad during their time at the top. From that point on, something had to give, and yes... people could probably guess what it would be. If there was such a conspiracy, how come the so-called coalition of cowards clearly got caught completely dumb struck? So to whom do you give all this credit, Buds/Sha/Grub? Was it terrible Sparta and that evil George the Great? I fail to see how they can be incompetent as well as being the puppet masters of Planet Bob. Or was it TOP? See, nobody wants to accept any blame and nobody wants to give any particular credit. It's pathetic. Admit your mistakes. Moving on to MCRABT's comments: I am curious to see a more detailed comparison between the tactics of the Hegemony vs those of 'Karma' which no longer even exists? How can Karma be using the same tactics to maintain itself when it is already gone? Honestly, your mirror image argument seems bought wholesale from Pacifican propaganda without a critical thought to accompany it. Your paragraph makes very little sense. I don't hate players or the [ooc]game[/ooc]. Yes, there is still bullying going on. But that's because there's no single entity able to police Planet Bob anymore. A fairly reasonable argument could be made that power is now concentrated in Citadel, but then again everyone's complaining that they're not doing anything interesting with that power so *shrugs*. I do not believe that things haven't changed. Do I believe that the power now enjoyed by certain parties may corrupt them into abuses? Absolutely. I am just waiting to see it. I don't believe in the moralist crap even one bit. I tech raid even. But that doesn't change history. NPO had it coming. A lot of ex hegemony people love to believe it's a conspiracy. You weren't out-played politically, you got so strong you stopped playing politically at all. It didn't take some massive conspiracy to bring you down, it took only your complete lack of care and supreme confidence that you had the world under your foot. At the end of the day, it comes down to Occam's razor. Is it easier to believe that there was a vast conspiracy nearly a year ahead of time that simply threw the innocent yet prominent NPO under the bus? Or is it easier to believe that after many years of stepping on people's toes they had finally made enough enemies that most of the world was ready for revenge? There have been people dedicated to the destruction of the NPO for a long time. I say again, who is it that you credit with this brilliant master plan that set the NPO up and then even got them to sign their own death warrant (declaring on OV)? It's laughable if you didn't believe it so much. This discussion is tired and pointless. You will always believe that the game (political game) is all about who gets to kick who and that some bigger, stronger, bad guy came and stole your lunch money. What does that tell me? That we'd better hope you don't get power back any time soon. EDIT: Any fool can think there are sides and ask you to join one. Doesn't make it true. I have been asked which 'side' of the next conflict I am on several times in private. Does that mean there is yet another conspiracy being plotted right now? Give it up, people no doubt talked about what would happen should 'x' occur, but beyond that there was no grand plan. Those against whom Vox wrote its propaganda seem to be the ones who most believed it.

I think a lot of people are mistaking the tensions within Q for some wider conspiracy. The sides were taking shape in a way, I suppose, but only because of countless slaps to the face that had been dealt by the NPO to her allies. So those of her allies recently slapped began to re-evaluate their relationships (as you would expect). The NPO had been trying to freeze certain allies out of the discussions, and in a predictable reaction, many of them began to speak to one another privately to discuss the situation. This is what helped draw the 'sides' that would eventually emerge once the whole OV thing kicked it off. The reason why anyone could have seen it coming is that the NPO had it coming. EDIT: It's funny to see people scrambling for some year long conspiracy plan in order to avoid having to accept the responsibility themselves.

Wait... so CSN is going to roll FAN at update? ... Just kidding. I merely drew attention to it because I think it's funny when everyone starts launching empty threats. For everyone who missed out, I'll summarize: Anyway, I really didn't take this that seriously, but I do find it annoying that everyone feels the need to punctuate their comments with some trumped up threat.

lolumad? Get a grip, fella. Your members have been insulting and challenging FAN in this thread if you took the bother to read it. I just think that taunting FAN is probably not a brilliant political move and enjoy drawing attention to it. They may not be government members, but what they say does reflect on their AA. I don't think anyone here expected a war to break out, just amusing posturing and sabre-rattling (which you're doing a great job of by the way). The second paragraph seems to be trying to make some sort of point or turn around against me. Unfortunately, I don't really get it, but I think you're trying to threaten me on FAN's behalf or something like that. Can you clarify?

It's easy to point fingers when people's treaty commitments get complicated, and a lot of both occurred during the Karma war. It's impossible to cast only one stone when discussing this. All I learned from it is that people should sign less treaties and enter wars whenever they feel like it is appropriate or someone needs help. To my mind, the treaty web bears most of the responsibility of history's curb stomps. Protectionist alliances should simply sign treaties with TOP, Sparta, NpO, MK, RIA, Valhalla, etc and then there's no danger of them ever having to fight again. *sigh* I will have a lot of respect for the first alliance who just stops playing by the old rules and lets its moral/friendship compass guide its actions instead of hiding behind treaties. I can only imagine how much more exciting this world would be. Of course, chances are that the rest of the world would immediately treaty-up against them and ensure that no fresh air be let in. And the circle of curb stomps continues.

Hehe, you've got to admit, things were somewhat interesting for a while there. After Bob Janova's post, I figured I'd:

I can assure you that if FAN attacks because of Deja's comments, I will not jeer at them at all. This world needs a bit more accountability there. If you openly challenge someone to attack, you can hardly fault them for following through. I guess sometimes it's not worth a war just to save face, but I wonder how Mpol will respond (well, I know he will respond with belligerence. I wonder what form that belligerence will take).

I for one would like to be warned immediately after lunch so that I don't have to hear such big news on an empty stomach. Doom-sayers just have no common courtesy anymore.

It's funny because that's twice now that members of Sparta no longer in Sparta have been given as the reason for the positive vibes. Unfortunately, neither of those times was my name mentioned... strange. *shrugs* Anyway, I think it was Liquid Mercury spreading the GtG love. Don't worry, you can send that along to Athens as that is now his permanent residence. I love GtG too, but he no longer talks to me.

It looks like CSN is calling you out, FAN... Keep going, deja, you're on the brink of doing something really interesting. But perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps you've unmasked Mpol for the coward he really is and he will soon apologize for his harsh words. Only time will tell.

There's an awful lot of hand-holding going on for a FAN announcement. FAN's forums must be flooded with visitors lining up to kiss their collective @#$%. Yes, this planet now suffers from a distinct lack of balls. Yes, diplomacy has taken on a greater role and treaties multiply faster than rabbits. But you just have to learn to wield new weapons. Clearly you already hold a lot of political sway around Planet Bob without even looking for it. While it is lame to put the burden on FAN to do something with it, it doesn't mean you can't. I would be quite happy to see you guys kicking sand in someone's eyes. Good luck with internal stuff and enjoy the $@! kissing etc.

Whoooooosh! That's the sound of that joke going over Jack's head at breakneck speeds. This one might be more your speed: So this baby seal walks into a club... ... ... ... Anyway, I don't like many alliances as I've said before, and it looks like most people don't. heh. Makes sense, most alliances are boring as Jack has rightly pointed out.

On behalf of all the paranoiacs out there, I choose to make of this a conspiracy!

I am betting heavily on sebulba kronos.

So did you read my message? er... I mean, what a fool that guy was! P.S. - Turns out FOK is preparing to join Frost Bite, pass it on!

I personally find the mud-slinging far more amusing than the meaningless rankings being handed out. I find Xiphosis' comments particularly amusing (the "you know it when you see it" comment was genius). I would fill out the list but honestly most of those alliances I don't care enough about to rate. I don't think that highly of many alliances I guess. I do have some respect for GOD, Umbrella, STA, and a few others. But shockingly, I agree with Jack's appraisal that far too many alliances are far too boring to be considered seriously. I like the Freudian slip there. Legion: always willing to cede.

When you decide to join an alliance you decide to associate yourself with that alliance's history. Your involvement may be lesser than others', but you still do carry some of the burdens from the past. Joining an alliance is a social contract, and like all social contracts, it comes with responsibilities.

Drostan's Very Short Elaboration of The Lonely Man's Elaboration on What Drives History: I'm glad you cleared that up for me because I've been staring at Paul Klee's "Angelus Novus" for hours trying understand what the hell Walter Benjamin was on about. But seriously, you used a lot of words to say very little. If there's one thing philosophers are sceptical of, it is dressy language, and you employ no shortage of it. Watch me summarize: History is driven by the actions of individuals. Each individual acts based on their network of social values derived from a community. But some people are superior to others, and somehow escape their network of social values and see the truth. This truth imbues them with some sort of world-changing power that drives history through the power of their ideas. Wow, that sounds an awful lot like a very glib interpretation of Hegel's theory of the World Historical Individual. I wonder where that came from, perhaps some empty-headed rambling about ideas being bullet proof etc ad nauseam. The only truth here is that you have purchased ideas wholesale from Vox Populi propaganda that you have no grasp of. I appreciate that you are likely a young buck trying to flex his newfound intellectual muscles, but pummelling us with cliches dressed up in awkward language is an insult to the community. To call this philosophy would be a bad joke. There is nothing here but assertion and then some idealist cop out. Propaganda isn't meant to enlighten, it is meant to persuade. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you understand this. Operating on that assumption, I must assume that this OP itself is propaganda and poor stuff at that. If this is your message I suggest you take it to a more subliminal level because you've utterly failed to penetrate the public's mental defences. Parting advice: throw away the thesaurus until you're comfortable using it, and avail yourself of the various online grammar resources accessible on the web.