Drostan

Yeah, we get it, Hulk Smash... Citadel fears no one. You claim you want war so bad and yet I see nothing concrete to support that just a lot of chest beating. I don't really care honestly as my allegiances pledge me to the Citadel side more than any, but I do find pointless chest beating rather annoying. If you really wanted war you'd have no trouble finding one as this poll told you even before you started spamming it for your own reasons. I have little sympathy for the boredom of Citadel and TOP in particular...

I tried to understand what was going on here and then stopped caring. Best of luck to Valhalla/STA in deciphering the various levels of irony at work here.

For me it would depend on how cool the rogue is and who s/he pissed off while roguing. If they pissed off someone I don't like it'd weigh heavily in their favour whereas if they pissed off someone I know I would be more or less indifferent.

Many have already said so but I will re-affirm what has already been stated: attack. You can start with attacking all those nations who have attacked your members. But I wouldn't waste time. You could chase your tail for a while and let them coordinate their front. Or you could be generating your target lists and getting everyone into DEFCON 1. I would attack with a massive blitz against all of UED at update quad-attacking their nations into prompt anarchy and prepare for full-scale war. You're a pretty big alliance and even with a number of inactives you should be able to give UED a run for their money. I would delay your military response until about 20 minutes before update and then have everyone declare and attack. If you have someone in charge of your defence, start them generating target lists and assigning fire teams to each target. Good luck. I hope you show UED that this is not acceptable and that WF can fight.

I must admit this thought did occur to me as well. Of course, I doubt anyone really cares about the results of this poll, it's just that TOP seems to be bombing in on this thread pretty disproportionately. The difference between people voting for the off-the-wall choice and the one that is clearly the truthful answer is... you know the difference and I am not going to explain it. heh. I don't really care either way, but TOP seems to be really going out of there way to show how much they don't care about being the next ones to get rolled. What's up with that? Also, I found this poll far more interesting than the platypus vs whatever the hell other mascot poll... at least until Cit decided to spam it to death.

God, I wish we'd stop jabbering about the legal details of the last war and focus on the task at hand: the next one. Sparta did indeed fight against their former allies only days after cancellation. Should they have cancelled earlier: no. Why? Because it would have tipped the NPO off that they actually had almost no support and were about to get seriously rolled. Don't like that answer? Invite some fairy tale then.

I am pretty sure that you made this entire alliance just so that the flag you made months ago wouldn't go to waste. Nevertheless, best of luck with that. At least this is sure to mean a boom in Athens foreign relations

I could believe that someone actually had the expertise to put a keylogger onto that chap's computer (and someone else's) and coordinated them somehow to upload to !@#$%*. Or I could believe that, like the logs Jack posted, someone idiotically left them on !@#$%* and they got found. Oh my, which shall I choose? This is seriously pathetic. Accusing someone of hacking you when you get some mud on your face is probably one of the most absurd and immature reactions I've witnessed. Show us some proof or apologize for being completely in the wrong in making this accusation. For those of you still entertaining this outlandish delusion: I am pretty sure keyloggers wouldn't snag the timestamps from an IRC conversation nor would they get both sides of it. If your computer was compromised, I can assure you these two events have nothing to do with each other and that you should stop visiting questionable anime sites and cease using !@#$%* for sensitive information. EDIT: Pathetic. I added this for emphasis as there is really no way to express how childish these accusations are.

Yes, I do believe that was the idea behind the whole thread. Does it have a Greek theme? heh. The better question for me is which alliance don't you want to see rolled...

That's probably because you didn't read this topic so much as use it as an excuse to make snarky comments laden with irony. Protip: If you want a topic to die, antagonizing those involved is a poor way of going about it. As for the 1B reps request, that has been corrected in private. Verily, no specific request for 1B was made. Originally there was an informal request made for full damages done to Tyga's nation but that was never put on the table as an earnest request and so I certainly withdraw my statement. If you ask your government members, there was significant confusion regarding the negotiations, and somehow that specific number ended up being passed off as a fact for a while. I will now try to bring to a close the strange tangent this discussion has spawned between Bob and Branimir etc: Halflinger's curt statement of opinion was humorous because of the timing. The topic had nearly fully exhausted itself when he decided to baldly step in for a moment, offer a rather worthless two cents, and then walk on. I don't think anyone was seriously trying to take Halflinger to the woodshed for this but rather exercising their sovereign right to a sense of humour.

This man understands! I expect to see an application from you on my desk pronto. I think you've got the mindset it takes to be part of the winning Kronos team!

So was this actually all over the whole Red Dawn vs. whatever the hell that other red bloc proposed by King Death II was? Someone earlier asked for some jerk to stir the pot so everyone could speak openly about this issue and that jerk has arrived... ... It's me for those who didn't catch on.

No, you seem to be being sarcastic.

Pure gold, walker. Don't get too comfy though, I am sure he has set up sleeper agents throughout the Orange sphere.

Here, Orange, you can use this to "be-ward" yourselves in preparation.

Nah, I have said before. I probably would have made outrageous demands too and seen how they reacted and then taken it from there. My biggest problems with this situation are not really how STA handled it as I expect conflict to arise on Planet Bob from time to time. I even think it is healthy. But it bears repetition that Kronos did not sign a guilt clause here. I state this for history's sake.

This argument sounds very strong whatever it may be. EDIT: Speaking of arguments though, remember that State of the Alliance Address wherein you announced that you were pleased with how the rogue was being dealt with? What happened with that? What changed your mind? It didn't seem to you guys that he was taking minimal damage then. Hrm.

I can assure you that I had the lowest tech and the weakest nukes of the nations attacking Heracles and I did not nuke him (he had already been nuked when I tried). So you've run afoul in your estimates somewhere. I did not re-declare on Heracles and I was one of the original attackers. That means my slot opened up and nobody took it. Sorry. I don't know how much time elapsed but still. It was hardly coordinated. I don't worry about valid CBs, this planet has never cared for them before, and only pretended to when they were rolling NPO. There are individuals who do to be sure, but most only do when it suits them. I just find it funny how many third parties have reacted to the situation. I care less about all that than I do about dignity. And when someone barks at my door with what I consider outrageous demands and threatens me, I consider it a point of pride not to pay them the blood money. EDIT: Somehow I missed commenting on us 'profiting' from the roguery. You mean tech-raiding? I thought we were open about that. Of course, eating one nuke sort of negates the value of tech raiding generally. But we were trying to tech raid, yes. Does STA have a policy of intervention against tech-raiding? Or is it basically that if someone rogues STA, people are not allowed to tech raid them?

Sorry, man. You seem to think Heracles was an idiot. He had no trouble sending ARs, GAs, etc against us when he had huge odds advantages. He didn't mind stealing my tech despite being a close friend. He loved war. He didn't send nukes because he would have been wasting them. As someone who knew him, I can assure you that he had a very specific beef with Tyga hence why he didn't declare on the rest of STA's government. He had one target and tried to do as much damage to that target as possible (as most rogues with a specific aim in mind do). He's been around way too long to be distracted by whoever else was in his slots. The only thing that could be done is for those people to do as much damage to him as quickly as possible and that's how it went down. AirMe: You're supposed to be a nice guy, but you are straight up talking smack right now. (ooc: the game has rules against slot filling and Tyga filed a report which was unsuccessful. If you think otherwise, take it up with admin /ooc). We launched a full compliment of attacks on Heracles like clockwork and those who deny it have their heads... somewhere other than on their shoulders. I am sure Heracles had other prime targets on his hit list, doesn't mean he'd magically turn into an idiot who didn't know how to deal out maximum damage to them. Your post is just blind speculation and accusation. I don't care how nice your manners are, you're being a jerk right now, AirMe. (ooc: it might have been reasonable to assume we were slot filling until Admin investigated it and said we weren't. It is no longer reasonable and neither are you /ooc). It's funny to me to see people essentially justifying war over this. And what is your argument? It looks suspicious (if you ignore the damage Heracles took). It's a brave new world indeed. I will say that STA has some mighty fine friends though because they are flailing like mad to make the threat of war justified no matter how awkward. Anyway, people who have never seriously considered going rogue will continue to think that it would have saved Tyga had big bad Kronos not fought Heracles instead. I can only hope that our next member of government to go rogue will choose his target wisely and will give us heads up so we can do that thing we do... you know the one I am talking about... EDIT: Our government was disorganized and did not handle this as well as possible to be sure (Heracles was a big part of our community and suddenly we didn't have a father figure). I think mostly the slots got filled because people wanted to raid Heracles on the way out. Not out of benevolence towards the STA nor out of malice. That is why I declared. I did not redeclare after the first round of wars, but those who did probably knew that Heracles was not long for this world at that point. Should Kronos have offered a slot to STA? Yeah, probably. Should STA have asked for 1B in reps and threatened war? Hellz naw. Should Kronos have rejected this and braced for war? Hell yes. Anyway, I'll take another opportunity to berate the treaty web here. What we had here was a clear failure of communication in which a small-scale conflict between a few parties would have been a reasonable outcome. Sadly, it got massively interfered with because every war is a global war today. Wu Tang: So essentially your argument is that Heracles was smart enough to rogue properly thus Kronos was war slot filling. Brilliant.

I'd like to but there's something about your posts (ooc: your avatar) that keeps bringing everyone's blood to a boil.

It matters at what cost peace is achieved. For those far removed from the incident it may boil down to 300 tech, but let's be honest here, there was a lot more at stake in this issue than that and everyone knows it.

I have fought the urge to respond to this announcement for days now but I am going to say something about it somewhere eventually. So why not do so here? I was going to post a chain of events but honestly nobody would read it anyway so instead I'll cut right to the commentary. Kronos was right to stand its ground in refusing to pay reps to the STA. (only 2 rogues and more of our members got nuked out of this than theirs). TOP or that one lone TOP guy should not have tried to close the books on this issue against Kronos' wishes. This was a huge betrayal and I am curious what punishment, if any, awaits a non-government member who takes it upon himself to negotiate against his allies' wishes in a situation that brought us to the brink of war. The ball was in STA's court. If they wanted to declare war with such flimsy reasons, Kronos had decided that we would rather risk that than bend our knee to an absurd request. Those hailing STA for being peaceful seem to forget that they threatened war over a ridiculously piddling issue. Nobody should have had to appease them and TOP was in no position to do so. The clean-up job done after everyone got caught with their pants down thanks to that RoK guy is just embarrassing. I don't know if any of our government members agreed to take responsibility for the tech sent out by whatever third party, but know that Kronos sent no tech to STA. I feel like this announcement reads like we signed some sort of guilt clause, but I do not accept that and nor should you. This was not a peace won by cooler heads but rather shady dealings, convenient politics, and a healthy dose of incompetence. It seems a joke to call this peace at all. There are appropriate times for war, and had STA wished to push the issue and bring war to our doorstep, this would have been one of those appropriate times. Then perhaps we would have seen whether STA deserved these peaceful hails, but unfortunately we will never know. I do not blame STA. If I were in their shoes, I would likely have handled things remarkably similarly. Of course, I never would have expected that so many people would be ready to back down so easily. Merry Christmas, STA, this time you got to have your cake and eat it too. I have been stewing over these recent events for so long now it seems that I am barely able to fully express the depths of my disgust with them. But I assume you've now got the gist of it.

Anyone who mistakes this for logic is clearly not playing with a full deck. It's a hypothetical example based on many years of accumulated hatred towards an alliance that ruled Planet Bob with an iron fist and forced several alliances to disband. Also, one government member left and attacked one member of STA. Lastly, I think you are wrong. If you changed your AA to "Rogue Mobile Go!" before attacking, I seriously doubt the NPO would find themselves at war. Basically, your example is correct if you simply replace every element of the real life situation with hypothetical ones and then leap to a conclusion based on nothing. You see what I did there?

All I know for certain is that he had the largest strength loss for at least one day and probably more but I didn't keep track of each day as it seemed under control. Keep in mind that your own announcement in the state of the alliance address also echoed the sentiment that Hatter was being man-handled appropriately (we sadly behaved badly about the fact that Kronos was doing most of the damage in that thread, but your own announcement suggests that he was taking adequate damage). As for logs (ooc), I have already mentioned that often times (like now) I am using web-based irc and thus logging is not possible to my knowledge. However, another reason that I could offer for the second round of un-staggered attacks is that many of us realized by then that Hatter was not long for this world (you know what I mean). I have to head to work now but will try to check later on from there.(ooc) I am uncertain about the second round of attacks on Hatter as I did not participate in them.

I don't really know what he was doing but I am sure I saw his infra increase near the end of the first round of war. This mattered because he had more defending troops for the last round of GAs I sent him than those previous. I know he said he was done but I have trouble believing it as he clearly had an axe to grind and (ooc:)near the end of the first round I am quite sure he said he was going to rebuy infra and attack someone later on down the road on irc but I often use mibbit from work instead of mIRC(/ooc). I also know he had a pretty massive war chest as was his habit. As for staggers, I was the second person to attack him if I recall correctly and I honestly think that the lack of stagger was less a meditated move as an oversight because for many of us this all started out as a chance to trade blows with Hatter and steal some tech back. None of us could have anticipated that there would be further rogue attacks until much later on. Needless to say, the situation was confusing and some of the mechanics are strange, but I know that he shed a lot of infrastructure in that first round of war. I know he lost a tonne of NS in the first couple of days, and certainly I kept sending ARs, GAs, and CMs regularly. I wish I had a better picture of Hatter's plans but honestly communication was sparse after the tearful goodbyes of earlier days. You also have to keep in mind that our organization was not at its best as our government had undergone quite a shakedown since Hatter was probably the most active and influential member. Anyway, this is what I know as best as I have been able to put together from my perspective on the fighting. Anyway, I am doing my best to address these questions in good faith. I still feel that a lot of fuss has been made over a couple of rogues.