Tulafaras

You know, one thing that still surprises me is how many people post here who either have no clue what they are talking about or are absurd trolls.... One of the major aspects of this CB is that TPF did NOTHING at all to come clean/stop this plan even if it obviously was irrelevant (Athens was out of the Karma war for nearly 3 weeks before this plan was halted in case you forgot). So how exactly are their actions the same as ZH's who stopped all activities and later came clean? If TPF had stopped this at any point during the peace negotiations (or even while they were under terms) and came clean nothing would have come of this. But they did not, they showed no remorse (in fact they are still convinced that their actions were valid) so obviously they are being treated differently. Can we now finally stop those idiotic calls to get ZH rolled as well, the situations aren't in any way comparable. I tried to explain this in the Athens thread, but since it seems we are going in circles i'll repeat myself: If spying is accepted during wartime then shortterm actions to gain intel might be acceptable (and frankly that point isn't that clear cut either) but this plan as shown in the logs was never intended to be a shortterm plan to gain an advantadge in the current war. It was a preparation for a future war, which quite clearly highlights the rather underhanded behaviour from TPF in this entire mess.

True to some extent but also too far simplified. Frankly Rok doesn't need em as backup against TPF and never did. If the threat was such that they did need backup there would still be other MADP partners left to back em up so why should they need to activate oA clauses? The only case where Rok might need them is in their defence if they are counter-declared by a large number of alliances, that is the situation where the treaty becomes active and in that case it is NOT optional. Frankly aside from the treaty definition, what i got from this threat was that ADI behaved in a most insulting manner, utterly unbefitting of an ally. That might be my personal opinion, but flipflopping in your answers isn't really the way diplomacy is done. It's even worse if you flipflop via public announcement instead of conveying your concerns in private. So frankly ADI your behaviour sucked.

I am sorry but we seem to speak two different languages here. I will take the liberty to ignore your first paragraph. I have tried to answer that point twice, Tyga has tried to clarify that, frankly we obviously won't agree here. Your second paragraph confuses me. The setup itself is proof of the fact that the plan was not a short term (as in within 2 months) but a longterm plan. So at least the timescale should be proven i hope. The next part is, where i either missunderstand you, or we have a massive disconnect in how we play this game. As i read it, you are saying that TPF sending infiltrators into an alliance (not their archenemy, but simply a random enemy out of a group of 20 they were opposing) is NOT an act of agression but rather a preemptive defensive action? If that is truly what you meant to say are you serious?

Of course there is, but there is also such a thing as "casus belli" which literally means a cause for war.

Are you planning to read any response and actually consider what was said or are you planning to post the same drivel for another few days before you finally stop? TPF hatched a long-term plan which could not have affected the outcome of the karma war under any circumstances (since the operatives would need to stay in Karma-Pow until they were released, which is not something that would be done as long as the outcome was in doubt). If they had immediatly stopped this plan and came clean once peace was signed nothing would have come of this except some raised eyebrows. Instead they did nothing, now Athens was informed of this long term plan to damage them. What exactly are they supposed to do with this information instead of declaring war? Frankly this has been the clearest CB i've seen in the last 2 years. PS: The fact that the attempt was not successfull does not change the fact that it was attempted.

Considering how ill thought out your post is, are you really sure you want to start calling the other side names? TPF was not at war with Athens. If you consider Karma a unified Faction (which frankly was clear to see that it was not) then maybe an act of spying during the war would have been acceptable (if they came clean and stopped such operations during the surrender negotiations), but this was not a short term plan for spying. It was meant as a long-term plan against an alliance they hated (for some reason which likely had little to do with Karma, otherwise they would have aimed for one of their direct opponents). Can you see the difference? Even if your scenario was correct (and frankly i disagree on almost all points of your second sentence), the act he ordered would have had no effect on the war which was fought at that time. It was a preparation for future acts of aggression.

I did not want to get involved in this discussion, but did you somehow miss the point that Athens promised to meet the KoN goverment to discuss Amends (as in reparations of some kind i would assume)? Tbh i don't care for tech raiding at all (have never done so, and most likely never will) but this entire mess is widely out of proportion. Did Athens mess up and should they pay reps? Yes obviously. Is this a reason to start a war? Honestly, if they are willing to make amends now then no, i see no reason to go to war. A similar offer was made to the NPO if you remember with somewhat mixed results (as in, negotiations stopped since they were fleeing into Peace Mode instead of negotiating in good faith).

they removed 2 key terms for a raise of 1bill. That wasn't an offer, that was an insult.

wrong. They stated that there were enough concessions made to the NPO. That does not mean that they would not hear counteroffers and discuss them among themselves. The NPO response was a rather insulting counteroffer which removed two key aspects of the terms for 1bill more money.

turtling stops GAs as you well know. considering i've seen Cortath argue that you can be nuked 3 times a day i'm sorry to say but i've lost faith in his knowledge of game mechanics. I've been in 4 circles of war with 2 nuke capable (and fighting) opponents each time. The total damage i took was 3.2k infra and 1.2k tech. When this war started i was at 67k NS meaning of a comparable size to the banks we are discussing frankly my firsthand observations do not match your allegations.

and your famous post is calculated with a tech factor of 6k and the assumption that every single attack hits and your nations don't know how to turtle. So i guess your calculation is unrealistic as well?

did you even read the thread? it came up at least 20 times so far, and is also clearly stated in the terms. The phrase used is: "only nations above 1k tech at the signing of these terms may pay".

no matter how often you repeat that myth it doesn't make it true. The 1k tech will be counted when the terms are signed, meaning before the 14 days of war.

No amount of completly beside the point facts will change the argument. We are not talking about individual nations, we are talking about alliances. Even the NPO who has gotten hammered lately have declared a few offensive wars in the last few days. (ooc) By your argument England was an agressor in WW2, since they sent a force to counterattack the germans to help their french allies, but yet i doubt anyone will try to argue that their actions were on the defensive side of the second world war(/ooc)

technically you cannot kill anyone in CN full stop. The only way a nation get's destroyed is "suicide" (deleting) or "old age" (20 days inactive).

so you want to say we have to keep fighting until the NPO is no longer in a position to threaten OV? If so this is going to be a long war. The argument wether this war is defensive or offensive is actually pretty easy to solve, it's both. OV clearly is in a defensive war, and i'd argue that their direct allies are the same since they involved themselve to defend OV. The alliances which followed oA clauses into this war are fighting an offensive war. The question wether "karma" is the defender or not cannot be truly answered since there is no diplomatic block called karma.

nah if peace was given today we'd be back to normal in 30 days or so

honey is actually oldschool for beer. I've drunk a similar beer (chili i mean) in spain 3-4 years ago, wretched thing.... Corona with a lime on the other hand is something i enjoy during summer.

as much as i enjoy "bashing" the enemie i feel obliged to point out that almost every NPO goverment member has actually fought in this war. If i missed someone feel free to point him out, but all the officials i knew off were hit at one point or another.

ZI for a 14k infra nation obviously hurts more than ZI for a 2k infra nation, but on the same token the 14k nation should have the wonders and improvements to rebuy up to a reasonable level (meaning 5-8k depending on his warchest) within a day. P-ZI hurts quite a lot more since you loose the wonders you spent years building, everything connected to the work you put into your nation is gone, so while i might agree that there are some specific cases where an alliance deems someone an enemy who must be destroyed, it should be a VERY rare case. E-ZI is pretty much unacceptable to me unless someone commits harsh ooc crimes, in which case he should be reported to the moderation instead.

Your posts do not present a truth. Your posts reflect an opinion, which you are entitled to (even if i disagree with it). You THINK our actions make us as bad as them, or comparably bad even if the situation is completly different. As i said before no matter how often you repeat your opinion (which is all you are doing, since you are completly ignoring every single argument made by the other side) it does not become truth simply because you think so. If you truly cannot see the difference between P-ZI and increased reparations than i have nothing but pity for you. why? honestly this sentence is simply confusing.... The NPO defenders are arguing that peace mode is a valid tactic (a point i agree with, since it's obviously included ingame for a reason), but if you follow that argument than a reaction to that tactic by the opposing side is also a valid tactic. Your understanding of damage mechanics is lacking. Which surprises me since you've played this game for a while. You think the NPO is done for because we have hit them hard and now we should give them white peace and celebrate? Well that sounds very similar to what was done after GW1 and we all know how that ended don't we? Frankly either find some decent arguments (very unlikely) or please get the hell out of this thread.

sorry magicninja just repeating a myth does not transform it into truth.

honestly, after reading the last 2 pages the only comment i have is: "does it matter?"

honestly as much as i like reading dirt on other alliances this is a bit thin. If you leave your alliance on bad terms (and it sounds as if you did) what are they supposed to do?

frankly this topic was old a week ago. Yes the NPO are behaving like hypocrites but if you continue to beat this dead horse you are behaving like a child.