Tulafaras

The problem is that most alliances have too many treaties and they are not sufficiently ranked. e.g. if alliance A has 10 MDPs and is part of 2 Blocks as well, chances are in such a global conflict that their treaties will conflict. Now it becomes a question of what to do? The honorable thing would usually be to stay out of the whole mess and help their allies rebuild afterwards, but that is not always feasible. The Q was a "test" to write a treaty to supercede all treaties and for a time it worked, but aside from that if you comply with a treaty or not depends on your feelings which is usually subjective.

you know you are so missinformed that i find your post sad instead of funny. Maybe some of the alliances who joined the conflict on Karma side are unprepared, but most knew excactly what they were getting into. Yes this war won't be fast, nor will it be cheap (even though i am "winning" my war i have lost 7k NS simply because my target is nuking back and attacking for all he is worth), but in the end i am confident i can outlast him and if necessary 3 others like him. Why? Because i had 600m warchest prepared instead of the 120m he had at the start of this war. In the end we will see, at a guess both sides will have lost a lot, but in my mind there is no doubt about who will win this war.

they might have changed a thing or two since then. like rules regarding warchests and the leader of the alliance. Can you honestly see mhawk folding like they did back then?

you are forgetting how many members NPO has. To get to 12mill we need to knock their avg. NS down to 13k. Considering that they are at 21k now after already dropping a ton, i do not think it is realistic to get them far below 12mill unless their members start deserting (remember they have 125 nations in peace mode). The question is how much they have to loose before they start honest surrender negotiations, but i think loosing nearly 50% of their NS would do it...

that is also a rather flawed deduction. 3 points to consider: 1) NPO already HAS 16 of their top 20 in peace mode, it's not as if we can hack those and force them to come out..... (note this was NOT a statement that i would wish something like that) 2) Even if my nation was ZIed today i would be back at 4999.99 within a day simply because i have that much money saved up and already own all the relevant improvements and a sizeable amount of wonders, i'd imagine NPO is much the same. That does not imply that they can recover to pre-war levels immediatly, but they will recover simply because not everything is destroyed in war. The only thing they need to recover is infra, land and tech. It will take time but not nearly as much as you seem to think. 3) Karma is not in any way close to being a solid Block and it likely won't be in the near future either. NPO's chance will come again when Karma starts warring among itself (as it should be, if our goal was to "win" the game and make a unified block which can never be challenged frankly i'd quit today since i dont see where the fun would be in that scenario). Don't get me wrong, i think Pacifica will pay, but so have many other alliances in the past and they have also recovered (MK paid an absurd amount of reps not even a year ago and now look where they are). As long as their 900 players stay loyal they will recover in time simply because of their size.

honestly, every single alliance knew what they were getting into when they entered this war. In all honesty i think the small alliances who only joined because of treaty chains will leave this war first. The 1V / Q / SF / Citadel alliances will probably stay in until this war is concluded one way or another (meaning a mass negotiation settlement between Karma and the NPO side, or to the bitter end). There isn't much they can gain by trying to get out if nearly all their allies are still in and will despise them afterwards (unless someone gives them a stupid excuse like what happened in the UJW, then you will see the rats leaving the ship faster than you can count)

seriously GDA, if a 40 people alliance makes a better blitz than you you should consider reorganization....

well in that case we'll see each other on the battlefield.

for the sake of negotiations karma were the alliances linked to OV due to defensive treaties. So their entering this war really shouldn't come as a large surprise should it?

The first term is fairly simple. [21:15] <@Archon> The NPO will issue a full, earnest, and sincere apology to Ordo Verde for their rash and unjustified declaration of war. this term was accepted without much problem, not really surprising since they don't really demand much. The second term is as follows: [21:19] <@Archon> The NPO will admit that the casus belli used against Ordo Verde was trumped up and that the NPO over-reacted in an effort to provoke war. Also a fairly standard term if the CB is contested (and suffice to say this CB was contested on nearly 60 pages, if you want to open up this discussion again please take it to another thread), but unlike the first point it led this led to nearly 30 minutes of discussion before finally the term was accepted in a sense (and if you don't call this stalling i don't want to know what you DO call stalling) next term was: [21:41] <@Tygaland> The NPO will pay reparations to Ordo Verde at a rate of 300% the damages dealt. This includes econmic damage dealt as a result of being in peace mode. To ensure that these reparations are paid promptly, the NPO will suspend all tech deals for the duration of these terms. This led to another long round of stalling since NPO insisted on a number, considering how long the war was at that point and how few nations were involved i think we can all agree that any amount of reps OV could demand would be payable with a single aidwave from NPO's side. but in the end it was agreed. the last term discussed was: [21:58] <@Archon> In recognition of the tensions caused by the NPO's rash declaration of war, and to ensure peace is maintained, the NPO will hereby decomission their soldiers down to 20% per nation. They will furthermore decommission all CMs, Tanks, Navy, and Aircraft. They must maintain this state for a period of 60 days. it led to a rather ridiculos discussion of who would protect NPO during this period, with some more stalling added into the mix. at 22:07 according to the timestamp archon delivered the deadline after the flight into peace mode was noted. at 22:09 when this term wasn't accepted Archon walked out of the negotiations. So, those were the terms asked for, and you have the gall to call them HARSH? Minimum reparations and a period of disarment......

since all you are saying is baseless accusations how CAN we refute it? In all the past wars our alliances have fought we have given fair terms, that is the only evidence we have and that is the only evidence we need. Seriously, stalling surrender negotiations for hours on end is NOT humble, it cannot be described as humble in any shape or form. Do you want me to analyze the logs sentence for sentence? The first thing Moo did when the discussion started was to try to argue that this was not a surrender. it's literally within the first 20 sentences how in the blazes can you call that humble?

err no? Did Archon ask for anything like that in the logs? If that is what you read then i'd recommend visiting a doctor. Frankly your opinion is pretty absurd, you say we are behaving excactly like NPO did in the past, but you couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. NPO started this war, they attacked. Now less than 24h later once they've noticed how big their mistake was they want peace, but instead of asking for peace like a beaten alliance usually does (that being humble and accomodating to the terms) they tried the same game they did during the last negotiations, that being stall. At the same time their members were happily slinking away into peace mode. So sorry, but this isn't the game anymore. They will be treated the exact same way as every other enemie has been treated in the past.

this is probably the weirdest war i have ever seen.... Anyway, good luck to you and see you on the battlefield

What exactly is the lowering? Seriously, you have been trying to defend various constructs since this war was declared. But the facts remain, you have attacked an alliance while an ally of yours was trying to meditate the conflict. You have no CB to speak of. I don't need to debate anything, the facts are clear and speak for themselve. If you lack the wit to reply then by all means remove all your credibility by saying something silly like "i'm not here to debate" but the fact remains that you are posting on a public board and with every single post you are making your alliance look worse.

NPO attacked OV during ongoing negotiations without a DoW. Afterwards they posted the weakest DoW possible, showing appalling doublestandards and lack of common sense. Then they spent the next 60 pages trying to defend that DoW and the way they delivered it against pretty much everyone else who is telling them either that they are idiots or cowards, or some other suitable insult.

neither did OV. there see, i have reduced my argument to your level!

you know, maybe you should send the next poster, you have failed pretty badly so far..... Seriously, if your argument is that "they were going to roll us tomorrow" then frankly your an idiot. Everything about this rising conflict in the last week came from YOUR side. Not a single alliance you accuse of war preparation made a single accusation or move against you until you started trying to bully around OV.

to my knowledge no, which is why i asked for this to be moved on page 2.

seriously, are the NPO people truly unable to recognize this as the bad joke it is? If we wanted someone handed over the request would come from a goverment member in private channels not on the big boards.....

seriously.... if your emperor is quoted 3 posts above, contradicting him is in bad taste

seriously Doofy / schills or whatever your nick is today, shut up, delete this thread, close your irc client and disappear. You are neither funny nor usefull, what you are is an embarrasment for the human species.

could we please get this thread moved to somewhere else? it really doesn't fit into alliance announcements....

you know, i'll just stick to my standard quote regarding spying: so by your standards Moo is a spy as well. Could we please go back to some usefull arguments? at least the discussion 3 pages back was articulated to a reasonable extent. If all you are going to do is throw out wild accusations in one-line posts you might as well save the effort, that achieves nothing.

indeed, which is what i said. NPO and TORN never wanted these negotiations to succeed. That is rather evident from the way things were handled. The issue behind the whole crisis was minor at best, and something which could have been solved within 24h at most if civil diplomacy had been used. Instead the usual approach was used ("we are the NPO now heel damn it!") and OV backed by their allies did not fold. To clarify, in my humble opinion NPO wanted this war, they planned for it from the minute they sent a significant amount of nations into peace mode, and used the negotiations to stall until the required waiting period of those nations was over and preparations complete. That is my problem with this entire affair, if NPO had simply declared war on Friday i'd have probably made less noise here, instead they negotiated until their obviously preplanned attack was already on the way. Frankly such behaviour disgusts me. You cannot have it both ways, either they wanted peace (as they said they did) or they wanted war (as their actions show).

you call that in good faith? Negotiating while the order is already given? Our definition seems to differ....