Seerow

I'll give you that UJP was going to lose either way in the long run, however I blame this more on the mindsets of those involved, and the lack of organization on some alliances. \m/ in particular was a huge headache for me (as MK and \m/ were sharing the same targets, and \m/ did not seem to understand the meaning of staggering). However numbers themselves do not win the war if it is relatively close. Had everyone in UJP acted optimally there would have been a chance for victory, I'm pretty sure on our side we had bigger warchests in general, and more active members. In a long term war this could have resulted in a stalemate at worst, a victory at best. But with the way things stood it looked like a losing war, and this led to the suicidal sentiment among many of the alliances involved, and the thought that any surrender was better than PZI of the entire alliance, thus leading to the cascade of surrenders.

A good thread, and an interesting story Schatt. My own was far less interesting. I was part of the NPO up until around the time MK was founded. It just happened to line up that they were founded around the same time Anthony was expelled from the Order. For months prior to this I had been feeling out of place as a part of the Order, and we all knew something of the sort would happen eventually, there were too many tensions in the upper ranks between Anthony and just about everyone else except Moo for it to not happen. In this time I had come to see the jrcommers as the Military Command at the time was called (don't ask) as my real alliance, and stayed primarily to help them. Remember, I was in military command during that time period where NPO was starting a war every month or so (or if not starting, participating in one), there was a significant workload for everyone pretty much constantly. But anyway, the point is I had told Anthony long before if he got expelled for any reason, I would be following him shortly. Most of the rest of the military command had made similar commitments. So Anthony gets expelled. About 24 hours after talking with my friends in the alliance, I eventually follow through on my prior commitment and leave the NPO. Upon me leaving several others make up their minds and follow suit. However despite having been in the NPO I had had almost no contact with GOONS, I leave the talking to outsiders to others for the most part. Let's face it I am the least diplomatically inclined person I know. As a result, Anthony decided to go to GOONS but I didn't have any driving need to be a part of them. On the other hand, I had a friend from that other moon game, who had joined MK upon its founding. MK had been founded very recently (like within days of Anthony's expulsion). As at this point NPO was the only alliance I had ever been in, I took the opportunity to get in on the ground floor of an alliance, and applied. Shortly thereafter, I'm working in Military command for the Kingdom, and just generally doing my own thing. Fastforward a bit, MK gets an upgrade from protectorate to MADP with GOONS, and becomes a part of the Unjust Path. We were all feeling pretty good at this point, having just forged the bloc, there was all the fun, the !@#$posting, everything you expect in the leadup to a major war. Then the war itself hits, earlier than anticipated and with people on the opposing side that were expected to remain neutral or side with us. It's looking bad, but hey it's not absurdly bad odds yet, just mostly bad. Of course, then as everyone knows the cry of "OMGOOCATTACKS" goes out. The whole Bilrow affair blows up and into the UJP supporting OOC attacks. TPF pulls out immediately, getting white peace in doing so, turning the situation from bad to hopeless. That leaves everyone else scrambling to get peace as best they can. I remember how surprised I was when as we were trying to get peace Archon asked me to join the peace talks. At this time GunneR was LHT, but was apparently mostly innactive, I had no place in upper government, I was just another military commander. I helped organize !@#$, but I had no special position. But when it came down to the peace talks it was just Archon and myself along with the NpO Government. Mind you, Ive said before I am the least diplomatically inclined person I know and am very surprised I didn't screw it up and get MK on EZI during these talks, but apparently I was wanted to help determine what reps would be payable by MK. Shortly following the conclusion of negotiations, I was promoted to LHT, and was left trying to organize an alliance that was just hurt pretty badly into rebuilding and paying reps. And well, the rest is pretty much nothing. The leadup to and ending of the UJW signaled my personal transition from a Militarily focused individual to a banking focus. I stayed as head of the treasury up until RL caused me to have to take a break, at which point I resigned from MK, and got beat on by the NPO for a little over a year for my transgression of leaving them. As a result I more or less completely missed the NoCB war. I finally got off PZI just before the Karma war started, and have been semi-active since.

Pretty sure we're also a spinoff of NAAC. Can't forget that.

We're used to crybaby's getting in a huff and leaving. We're comfortable at our member count. If he manages to get in and enjoys himself, great. If he decides to act as pathetic as you paint him, he will be gone in short order and we'll keep trucking as normal. Exactly the attitude I would expect from you. He clearly was not strong enough to survive. Also, hello, how have you been doing?

Sounds like somebody learned this the hard way. I would guess this is why most people only make such lists in a quitting topic (so they dont have to deal with the aftermath), or make a much shorter list and put something retarded like "and many more, you know who you are". Anyway, looking forward to seeing what you do with your official reentry to preeminence.

It's not really all that hard to write a script like what he described. But anyone caught using such a script would be banned pretty quickly with or without a click limit. (And it's not hard to see a single person refreshing their screen every few seconds on the few seconds 24/7)

I'm sure he appreciates it.

Are you going to argue you don't deserve the humiliation? Frankly you made just about every mistake you possibly could as an alliance leader, short of declaring open war on someone larger than you. That people all saw you were doomed to fail isn't their fault.

You and everyone else is missing that VE's disbandment was a completely different situation. They were forced to disband as a direct result of a war to clear them off green. Before it happened, there was no hint of any troubles with VE nor did anyone really think they would disband. CG was founded by alliance hoppers whom everyone knew wouldn't hold together more than a month or two from the start. Saying VE expecting them to disband and making a little game out of it is immoral and outrageous because they had disbanded in the past is stretching it just a bit.

VE scored several points in my eyes from this thread. And frankly all the bawwing about it and them still defending themselves on it rather than folding scores yet more. Good show VE, stay classy. (And hey unlike most people saying that I'm not being sarcastic!)

No, you can see my edits. I was thinking of a different member who was caught up in the same mess who was not expelled.

Edit: Apparently it's somebody else that I was thinking of. I can't even remember who, I just remembered Anthony !@#$%*ing about an exposed spy being in .gov. Edit2: Apparently the person I was thinking of was Lord Nebulous, who was also part of the Coven, but was not expelled as she outed Nosey. Or something along those lines, it's been a few years since Ive thought about any of this. Sorry for the confusion, I take back my previous objection.

The traitor himself acknowledged the logs were doctored, yet maintained (or gained? Not sure of his position prior to being found out) his government position despite being an exposed spy. Certainly there's reasonable doubt regarding anything he said afterwards, because that really just reeks of some sort of deal being cut. That said I'm not arguing one way or the other, I'm just pointing out how there could still be doubt despite his admission.

Now who could have called that one? I wonder...

The better question is why have you not?

Guess I missed that one. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. [ooc]I blame mods locking threads prematurely. I didn't even see the other two threads on this subject til after posting here.[/ooc]

Source? If you're referring to RV saying an agreement was reached, this thread was started after RV's thread was locked.

Interesting, an ambush during peace talks? This sounds oddly familiar.

The first post I quoted said it was ridiculous for me to make a judgement based on their last months of existence. I responded to that accordingly. The part of my post you quoted was responding to someone telling me I had no right to judge \m/'s organization because I am not ex-\m/ But nice try.

Im happy to have contributed my 20 nukes to this glorious achievement. But this whole treatying with ODN thing... I for one side with the Vanguard in this conflict. )): potato )):

Yes how ridiculous of me to make a judgement based on past experience and say that a horribly inefficient alliance whose attitude rubbed most of the game the wrong way wasn't the best thing to ever bless planet bob. Just ridiculous of me. As someone who was in military command during the UJW, I can say for 100% sure how unorganized they were during that conflict, and how badly they were $%&@ed for a long term war had it come to that. Now, with the 'OOC attacks' thing that came up, and several key alliances pulling out, it wound up not mattering in the end. Everyone was left screwed and to try to find peace as quickly as possible as best they could. However had \m/ tried to continue fighting to get better terms, we would have seen them bleed far faster proportionally than the NPO did in this most recent war. They had no reserves. Not one member seemed to understand what a stagger was. Where the rest of us were preparing for a long drawn out nuclear war \m/ was going full on berserker with no warchests, reserves, or banks. It was an utter mess. Really, even the \m/ members admit that their organization was subpar. How do you figure you can call me out just because I am not an ex \m/ member on something that is pretty much widely accepted as true? If I had said something about not liking their attitude, their member base, or their habits, you might have a point. But you want to argue about one of the least structured war-centric alliances in history and claim they were as well run as anybody else? Don't make me laugh.

Quoting this because aside from the former member thing everything stated represents my opinion pretty much accurately. I -especially- hated trying to work with \m/ during the UJW.

No I am not allowed to waste any more time on this game than I already am. Of course feel free to Challenge Azaghul. Or Inst. I'm sure they'll be happy to make MK compete with Umb directly in efficiency.

Don't tempt me to get active again to make this happen )):

Just need a bit more to beat umbrella )): Umbrella )):