Caliph

Wow, sad to see you go man, you've been here quite some time. Heck, even longer than me. Good luck in all that you do

Double post: please delete.

Not at all, however when you are complaining to us about our tech raids, it only makes sense for you to complain to every other alliance who tech raids as well. You have yet to speak out against the Continuum and One Vision tech raiding alliance. So you are picking and choosing which alliances to criticize for tech raiding. You criticize some of the alliances who tech raid, but do not raise the issue with those who do have the military power to really do something about it, the Continuum and One Vision. Start criticizing all tech raiding alliance for their "evil tech raiding ways", or stop criticizing PC and RAD because you truly don't see tech raiding as bad, but as merely something you can criticize us over. This is the viewpoint that I simply just don't understand. What difference does it make if you talk about your actions or not? Two people tech raid. Person A talks about it, Person B doesn't. Who is more "right"? That answer is simple, neither. They both perform the same action, do the same deed, with the same destruction caused to the innocent. Not talking about it is simply trying not to bring it up, trying not to advertise that it was indeed a tech raid. Not talking about it seems you are ashamed of your own actions, whereas if you talk about it you are not ashamed at all. If you truly are too ashamed to speak out for the actions you perform, why do you do them? Why would you perform shameful acts, willingly? That viewpoint just simply doesn't make sense. Tech raiding is not going away because people refuse to talk about it. Tech raiding isn't going away in the Continuum era for the same reason it didn't go away in the Initiative era, and that is the hegemony either does it themselves, or has treaties they refuse to break with alliances who tech raid. In the Continuums case, it is a mixture of both. So, given that not talking about it has not changed the practice at all, how can you say that talking about tech raiding is more harmful?

Couple things. 1) PC is hardly the only alliance who performs tech raids. I could site several Continuum and One Vision alliances who authorize tech raids. 2) The word you're looking for is "steal", not "stole". That sentence should read "Sorry I stole from you, I'll not steal from you again. Grammatical changes in italics

I talk about it, but most people don't. I fully agree with your assessment here. Those who protest the loudest against OOC attacks perform OOC attacks themselves.

I agree with this fine man right here. If the headband is very sweet, I'll pick up that starving child's friends and throw them into said starving child to get that headband. Seriously folks, given the recent wars there is simply no difference in "tech raiding" and "alliance war", both are done for the sole purpose of winning the spoils of tech. At least we're being honest about it. Oh, and obligatory "I haven't tech raided since \m/" statement.

Quoted from the doctrine itself. It is the pink nations duty to bring the case to us. We will do our best to make sure all pink nations know about the PWN forums, and about the pink court, however ultimately if the pink nation in question does not bring this to our attention, than we won't do anything. If they are threatened to not go to us, however, that would constitute as bullying.

I very much disagree. The alliances like FAN and the former GOONS were not granted peace because they spied, but because they threatened either Pacifica or Polar and the decision to never grant those alliances was made prior to any conserted or public endorsement of spying on their enemies. In essence, those alliances decision to publicly endorse spying was their reaction to the action of NPO and friends to refuse to grant them peace.

This is indeed correct, and I have tried to explain that earlier but perhaps my point then was lost. Vox is the reaction to NPO and allies actions, not the cause.

Eh, sorry about that. I was a bit impatient yesterday due to some things. According to this doctrine, if the pink target decides to contact the Pink court, that is when we would get involved. And by getting involved, we would ask for battle reports as a way of validating someones story, and we would contact the offending party. By no means would we be first striking everyone attacking a pink nation. Once we have been contacted, we would contact the offending nation, and try to resolve the situation diplomatically, without resorting to further violence. All I would ask is that Planet Bob gives us a chance. We are aware of the history behind such doctrines, and I do believe we have a doctrine here that everyone can live with.

Now that is certainly an accomplishment! Gratz guys!

Nice bunch of folks you got there O/ Polaris

Nice of you to skip over my post, even though I am a gov member in one of the alliances that is a signatory of this doctrine.

You are correct in that the first FAN-WUT war was necessary due to FAN's actions. However those peace terms they accepted were a trap because in order to follow them, they would have to violate them in order to stay out of self inflicted anarchy. How? Let me explain. At the time you had to select from a predetermined list of how many troops to buy. You could enter in an exact number of troops to disband, similar to how you can now enter in an exact number of troops to buy. The terms stated that FAN could keep only the amount of troops necessary to keep their population happy. NPO took that to mean a maximum of 20% troops. The game mechanics at the time made that to be impossible for several reasons. 1) If you did an infra jump, you would have to buy troops at your current level in order to keep yourself out of anarchy. That would require that nation to be at higher than 20% troops for a brief time before they bought their infrastructure, before they could decom their troops to be in compliance. 2) If someone raided FAN, which happened numerous times, when the 3 day anarchy period was over, that nation would want to buy troops to keep them out of anarchy. Lacking the game mechanics to do so, they would have to buy a amount of troops that would put them at greater than the 20% limit, before decomming troops to be in compliance. Those terms could not be followed if they were to mean 20% max troops. In order to follow those terms, if indeed they were meant to be 20% troops, that would require FAN nations to violate those terms before being able to comply with them. Simply put, those terms were made to give the NPO and friends a CB to hit FAN. NPO never intended to give FAN a chance, and wanted to blitz FAN again before FAN was able to remiliterize. The 1st FAN war was justified, the 2nd was not.

This would indeed fall under bullying, and if the nation in question brought it up with us, we would take the necessary steps to get a peace. This is to ensure a protection of pink nations from being warred upon because they are on pink. This is to make sure that tech raids on the pink team are kept as just tech raids, and not beat downs, because we all know that for the purpose of a tech raid you do not need any more than 2 Ground Attacks. Anything more is done purely with the focus on destroying. Heck, when I tech raided over a year ago I was able to do so without even anarchying my targets, and did nothing more than 2 GA's. Most of the people peaced out. This lets me know that there if you use more than 2 GA's in a war, that war ceases to be a tech raid, and more a war of agression on your part with the goal of destroying another nation, and not just raiding tech.

I admit I do not know the inner workings of the GGA at that time, I can only go by what went on the forums. And given that GOONS/BAPS/GGA drama, and the evidence that was presented on the forums at the time, it appeared to everyone that GGA was willing to go to war with GOONS over a BAPS tech raid of a brown team nation who was on the "none" Alliance. That person was technically on your member list, however there were no signs by looking at that nation that they were a GGA nation. Nothing was stated as so in their nation bio, they were not flying the GGA AA, they were not flying the GGA flag, and they were not on Green. Now, I don't know if it was you specifically who decided to push GOONS for war over this, but I do know that this was used by the GGA to "recognize" a state of war with GOONS to spark off the Unjust War. So I will admit that perhaps it wasn't specifically a "Bilrow plot", but it was a GGA plot, and at the time Bilrow was synonamous with GGA. So forgive me if you truly did not have much involvement in that event, however you were operating as the spokesman for the GGA at the time.

I disagree, there were plenty of alliances to kill, the problem was that for various reasons they were allied to someone or another in the WUT via the treaty web. Additionally, the Modgate bannings and the refusal of the GOONS to kick banned member out of gov really sparked tensions between the Orders, who valued certain ideals, and GOONS, who valued the lulz. Additionally, Bilrow and the GGA trying to spark war with GOONS with many actions, one of which being the defense of a Brown none against a tech raid by a protectorate of GOONS, who turned out not to actually be a GGA member after all, sparked even more tensions until war finally broke out, and, most importantly here, half the WUT betrayed the WUT on the outbreak of hostilities. Instead of sticking with the WUT, half the alliances bailed, and most joined the side attacking the WUT. The WUT hegemony was broken and we were thrust into a brief era of uncertertainty as to who the new hegemony would be, the Unjust Path, or ~? The Unjust path, it was said, would lead us into a world of beatdowns with little or no use of CB's, where the powerful and allies of the powerful could attack whomever they wanted with impunity, where tech raids would continue to happen. The world the ~ would lead us to would be of peace, prosperity, and respect, where the lulz alliances would never be allowed a position of power, and where all wars would have proper CB's. Examine the world today, and you will see not much if different from the world described as the Unjust would have ruled. The ideals are the same, and that is might makes what is. The only difference is in order for the current hegemony to maintain its seat of power, it must stick together and maintain a credible threat of military beat down on any enemy. To this end any up and coming alliance is either treatied to the Continuum in some way or another, or beat down by someone in the Continuum. The problem is that there are not really many who are against the NPO anymore. At least, no because they are the "ebul NPO". The only anti NPO, or critical of the NPO, are so because of the NPO's actions, such as betraying one set allies for another, for esssentially vassaling IRON and GGA, and for their treatment of their former allies, who for their service were for all intense purposes left to die with their service to the Order forgotten, and kept from returning through the direct military threats from the NPO and its vassal states.

Raids are restricted to just ground battles as defined by this doctrine. However I just do not understand people's hatred of RAD and PC for our tech raids. If you examine all the tech raids on one month on planet Bob, you will noticed that members of the Continuum will have tech raided many more nations, and have looted more tech from nations they are at war with, than PC and RAD. You will find IRON and other alliances that tech raid tech raid much more than RAD, and in any given month will have looted more tech from the unaligned than RAD has. So save your sermon of the immorality of tech raiding to those who can truly make a difference in stopping tech raiding. Until you criticize, as vocally as you criticize RAD and PC, all the other tech raiding alliances, you are adopting hypocritical behavior and as such lose all your credibility.

Somewhat true. The WUT was created by the NPO because Dilber realized the NPO had to get more allies. The WUT was formed for one purpose, revenge on whom the NPO declared as their enemies. The WUT broke up when its members decided to partake in non Order approved wars. The Continuum was formed to prove to the world that the NPO could put together a bigger, stronger bloc than the NpO could, and to help the NPO remain in the center of politics here on Planet Bob. One huge change from the WUT to Continuum is that redundant treaties were seen in the WUT as a "lines being drawn", whereas redundant treaties in Continuum are welcomed as a stabilizing factor. Well that and two alliances that were formally in the Continuum are not actively working to destroy it. The Continuum is indeed the WUT, version 2. This is very noticable in the wars fought in the Continuum's name, all beatdowns, all tech raids, some for bs reasons, some for no CB. All of these things are what Continuum and One Vision alliances stated would be the affairs of things if the Unjust Path was not destroyed. Funny how the only difference to those threats of old and the current situation is who is in charge of the beatdowns, the NPO, or GOONS.

That is RAD, not PC. edit: If a RAD nation bites off more than they can chew on a tech raid, tough luck. There are very few situations in which we'd get involved in a tech raid gone bad.

You are correct, however the NPO made it explicitly clear that they would be DOWing MK in 5 days from the dissulution of the Drinking Buddies. The war didn't last the 5 days, so since the NPO stated they wouldn't attack WUT members or former WUT members, that left their targets to GOLD, and a few other straglers here and there. No, my knowledge of this particular event was "pieced together" by living through it. This is my second nation.

That was before the Unjust War. When the Unjust War broke out, the NPO publicly withdrew support from the UJP and as such cancelled their treaties with MK in their 5 day countdown of waiting until the Drinking Buddies formally expired, allowing NPO to declare war on the MK without violating the Drinking Buddies. Funny how they waited the 5 days before declaring war on GOONS allies because they didn't want to violate the Drinking Buddies pact, but didn't come to GOONS aid at all thus violating the Drinking Buddies pact.

Well. I am amazed at how many people don't quite grasp this doctrine. This doctrine is not about stopping tech raids on Pink. The Revenge Doctrine and Yellow Number 5 are/were about stopping all tech raids on a particular color. This doctrine is about making sure raids stay raids. The second a raider does more than 2 GA's, that is more than a raid and if the target brings the situation to our attention we will begin to try to get them peace. We are trying to prevent tech raids turning into beat downs here, we are not trying to prevent the tech raids themselves. Besides, anyone who says the NPO doesn't tech raid clearly hasn't been paying attention to the amount of wars the NPO gets into. All wars are tech raids by the fact that tech is taken in wars, regardless of the "reason", CB, lack of CB, what day of the week it is, what color your socks are, and whats for dinner that day. It is, and has been for as long as I have been here, the standard practice to tech raid others. The reasons were different, the intent was not always for tech, but the actions have consistantly been the same. The NPO, who doesn't tech raid, have allied themselves with the alliances, consistantly, who do the most tech raiding. Not who are necessarily the most vocal, but who do the tech raiding themselves. Yet they tell all of their allies, with the Revenge Doctrine, that they cannot raid Red. That is hypocritical if the NPO claims to dislike tech raids. Again, all wars are tech raids. When TOP declared war on NpO recently, explain to me how the surrender terms didn't constitute that war being a giant tech raid? So you are criticizing us because we want to stop unaligned pink nations from being beat down in defensive wars? We are not trying to stop tech raids, we are trying to prevent them from turning into unjustified beat downs. Also, your analogy fails. The 2 GA's you do to raid cause 40 infra damage. If its a raid it stops there. If its not a raid, 2 bombing runs causing an additional 40 infra damage and 2 CM's follow causing an additionaly 20 points of damage for an additionaly 60 points of infra damage. The extra 60 points of infra damage is what we're trying to prevent. We're not saying you can't raid pink. We are telling you to keep them as raids, and not abuse the lesser nation. In essence we are holding everyone raiding pink to the same standards we use for our own tech raids. That is indeed correct. It is funny the amount of posturing that has occured in this thread by alliances who betrayed their own allies. How else would they get white peace when members of that same coalition got unrealistic terms or no terms at all?

Basically, this. The NPO has stated that FAN and all Vox members will never be able to play this game without the threat of constant attack from the NPO and allies. They have no hope for peace. Vox members were individually placed on the PZI lists and reformed Vox out of spite. FAN has been told repeatedly to "die" and that they will never get peace. As a result of being told by NPO government that they will never get peace, some have taken it personally.

Well, I partly answered your question already. For Vox, many of their members feel betrayed by Pacifica. Some of them have had long histories in the NPO, and were Imperial Officers at one point, or highly respected members. They voiced dissastifaction with what Pacifica was doing to Polaris, and were expelled and sentenced to PZI for it. Some have taken that rather personally. For FAN's case, I attribute it to both sides caring for their alliance. The NPO fears what FAN would become if it ever got peace. FAN was responsible for causing incredible damage to the NPO, and if it weren't for the NPO's allies the NPO would have taken far more damage and would not have recovered so quick. Of course the foreign policy of NpO at the time was to discredit everything every other Initiative alliance had done and instead only recognize what the NPO and NpO had done, but thats beside the point. In FAN's case, I believe it was Bakunin's Dream who told FAN that they would never get peace, and that they should "die". At this point in time, FAN members are members are not dead weight that they had when they were the #3 ranked alliance in CN, they are highly motivated having survived constant warfare for over 2 years. FAN members see the NPO as trying to prevent them from playing the game, and some have taken that rather personally as well. Additionally, as you have stated, the actions and words of certain Pacificans have indeed not helped much, and I know that the NPO government wants FAN dead and disbanded. Truthfully, at this point, I think that the reason the NPO refuses to give FAN peace is because the NPO was in that same position in Great War 1, and fears what FAN would do if it got peace. After all, the NPO rebuilt, gathered a coalition, and had their retribution on their enemies in Great War 2 and Great War 3. Regardless of anything FAN says, the NPO sees that FAN has survived, like the NPO, against huge odds. The NPO sees FAN as being like themselves, and as a result of that, think that FAN would do what the NPO did, and take revenge for the war.