Athens Announcement

[Augustus Autumn]

Why don't you try addressing the evidence and the logs I have posted instead of attempting to libel my character for no reason?

My apologies, I was in the process of correcting my statement to update it. You can find it here.

As for my statements, a question as asked as to motivations. I'm simply offering some for consideration and disgestion.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[Hyperion321]

Never underestimate the overconfidence of the leader of an alliance to attempt score points by shucking a treaty. Also, never underestimate the distances that hypocrisy will compel people toward.

Never underestimate the distances Spartans are willing to go to defend Athenians from character attacks such as this.

[Bilrow]

Well, that's the thing. Shuru said it was Mary who had told you, so I went back through all my logs in which I'd been around Mary. What was I was tipped off to, however, was that apparently I had been running my mouth to "people" and it was "getting back to" NPO. Certainly not that I was saying crap about NPO to their face. Lol.

[2009-06-12 23:58:43] <XXXXXXXX> So apparently word's also coming aroud that you're running your mouth to people and it's getting back to the NPO...ugh.

[2009-06-12 23:58:52] <Londo|busy> what's this now?

[2009-06-12 23:59:07] < XXXXXXXX > Something about you going on about this being your revenge or some!@#$

[2009-06-12 23:59:10] < XXXXXXXX > and getting caught in lies.

[2009-06-12 23:59:16] <Londo|busy> this being my revenge

[2009-06-12 23:59:19] <Londo|busy> ?

[2009-06-12 23:59:28] <Londo|busy> getting caught in lies?

[2009-06-12 23:59:28] < XXXXXXXX > Something like that

[2009-06-12 23:59:38] <Londo|busy> "this" being what?

[2009-06-12 23:59:45] <Londo|busy> what is getting caught in lies?

[2009-06-13 00:00:16] < XXXXXXXX > I don't know.

Do you think it's rocket science to determine that you were looking for revenge? Heck, even the most non-participatory person in New Pacific Order could have made that assessment. But to think that Mary, who has not only been a leader in New Pacific Order, but also Green Protection Agency, could not come up with that opinion based on your actions, that's just silly and foolish to underestimate someone of her time and involvement in Planet Bob of coming to that conclusion.

[TehChron]

Never underestimate the distances Spartans are willing to go to defend Athenians from character attacks such as this.

Do you just defend them from the false ones, then?

[Hyperion321]

Do you think it's rocket science to determine that you were looking for revenge? Heck, even the most non-participatory person in New Pacific Order could have made that assessment. But to think that Mary, who has not only been a leader in New Pacific Order, but also Green Protection Agency, could not come up with that opinion based on your actions, that's just silly and foolish to underestimate someone of her time and involvement in Planet Bob of coming to that conclusion.

You see, you berate Athens for putting together conclusions based on what they see in front of them. Yet when you come to conclusions that Londo is only out for revenge, you speak of it as fact.

You don't know what Londo is thinking, therefor you should not treat it as fact. And you call Londo a hypocrite.

[TehChron]

You see, you berate Athens for putting together conclusions based on what they see in front of them. Yet when you come to conclusions that Londo is only out for revenge, you speak of it as fact.

You don't know what Londo is thinking, therefor you should not treat it as fact. And you call Londo a hypocrite.

There's also the possibility that Londo was lied to, saw a chance for a quick PR gain, and took advantage of it.

It wouldn't be the first time.

Edit: And it wouldn't change the fact that he was painfully, horribly wrong.

Again, not the first time.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Chron

[outworld]

This.

Good Luck TSI and KoC and also GRAN. :>

jgoods your seriously the only guy in Athens I like

[Londo Mollari]

Do you think it's rocket science to determine that you were looking for revenge? Heck, even the most non-participatory person in New Pacific Order could have made that assessment. But to think that Mary, who has not only been a leader in New Pacific Order, but also Green Protection Agency, could not come up with that opinion based on your actions, that's just silly and foolish to underestimate someone of her time and involvement in Planet Bob of coming to that conclusion.

Exactly how is Mary's determining that I want revenge equivalent to "word getting to NPO" because I was "running my mouth to people"? It isn't, at all. And thus, that explanation, though it seem logical if we didn't know that NPO was told about this by an outside party, does not make any sense.

[Hyperion321]

Do you just defend them from the false ones, then?

If you can point out where any character attack on Londo has ever been true, I'd be happy to stand by him on that as well.

[Augustus Autumn]

Never underestimate the distances Spartans are willing to go to defend Athenians from character attacks such as this.

The threat of military force for my speaking my mind is duly noted.

[TehChron]

Exactly how is Mary's determining that I want revenge equivalent to "word getting to NPO" because I was "running my mouth to people"? It isn't, at all. And thus, that explanation, though it seem logical if we didn't know that NPO was told about this by an outside party, does not make any sense.

Perhaps the outside party that informed the NPO was the same one that informed you of TSI's dealings?

Edit:

If you can point out where any character attack on Londo has ever been true, I'd be happy to stand by him on that as well.

Touche', then again, would it be a character attack if it were true, or merely calling him out? Regardless, Londo does love his attention for Athens when he gets the chance for a scoop, damned be the fact-checking.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Chron

[Hyperion321]

The threat of military force for my speaking my mind is duly noted.

Your jump to conclusions in an attempt to paint Sparta as a domineering force hellbent on enslaving NPO is duly noted.

[dwthegreat]

<XXXXXXXX> So apparently word's also coming aroud that you're running your mouth to people and it's getting back to the NPO...ugh.

All NPO only had to read the OWF to get this gist.

[Bilrow]

The rocket scientists in my nation have set upon a non-scientific survey to determine how people came to the conclusion.

[Londo Mollari]

The quote calls into question the circumstances under which Mary could have come into possession of said information without Shurukian providing it - those circumstances were provided. As for the logs you just posted, they prove nothing since the identity of the person cannot be confirmed. You're asking people to take your word on something when your credibility is the very thing at question here.

No the circumstances don't make any sense at all... because I KNOW that NPO got word of this from an outside party. How? A well-connected and very trustworthy ally told me. That is who XXXXXXX is in those logs. No, sorry, that explanation doesn't make sense, and it isn't my credibility at stake here, but Shurukian's.

[Augustus Autumn]

Your jump to conclusions in an attempt to paint Sparta as a domineering force hellbent on enslaving NPO is duly noted.

I wasn't making any comparisons - I was noting the tone of your statement and the implicit threat contained therein.

No the circumstances don't make any sense at all... because I KNOW that NPO got word of this from an outside party. How? A well-connected and very trustworthy ally told me. That is who XXXXXXX is in those logs. No, sorry, that explanation doesn't make sense, and it isn't my credibility at stake here, but Shurukian's.

So someone who you won't reveal told you something that was horrendously obvious to the entirety of the Cyberverse and it's Shurukian's fault and, as such, her credibility should be scrutinized while you should be taken at face value without any questions. I see. My deepest apologies for doubting you in the face of such conclusive and damning evidence.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[Hyperion321]

I wasn't making any comparisons - I was noting the tone of your statement and the implicit threat contained therein.

You made a statement based on your perception and yet you didn't have complete factual proof that Sparta wanted to roll you.

We all act on belief and perception. You are no different.

[TehChron]

No the circumstances don't make any sense at all... because I KNOW that NPO got word of this from an outside party. How? A well-connected and very trustworthy ally told me. That is who XXXXXXX is in those logs. No, sorry, that explanation doesn't make sense, and it isn't my credibility at stake here, but Shurukian's.

No one's saying it is.

However, its that fine line where no one really cares, as you've got a pretty good plausible deniability defense if it turns out you were wrong. You've learned better since the last time, londo, instead of defending the charges that have a pretty good chance of being completely wrong, you're defending your actions and thought processes.

Sure, you havnt really presented proof, and you likely werent shown any real proof either, and then there's the fact that its no secret you think horribly of NPO and would love to make yourself look good at their expense at any opportunity, but the thing is...Nobody cares.

You're a convenient mouthpiece, that's all. Sure, your friends may give you credibility, but it's not like you're going to make any from these announcements. And since, more or less, you're defending your "right" to act on shaky accusations to defend what was clearly meant as a slap to the face of TSI, it's not like you're risking any personal credibility. After all, you did the "reasonable" thing in this situation.

As much as it disgusts me, you cant really be strung up on this approach. You've approached this too carefully for it to be possible.

[Tobirama Senju]

No the circumstances don't make any sense at all... because I KNOW that NPO got word of this from an outside party. How? A well-connected and very trustworthy ally told me. That is who XXXXXXX is in those logs. No, sorry, that explanation doesn't make sense, and it isn't my credibility at stake here, but Shurukian's.

ooc/I do believe this is why the thread has reached 25 pages. Because although you have dropped logs that prove your thought process and your reasoning, you have NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE, you have no confession, no informant, no logs, no posts. And this is quite a serious accusation expecially when its not your credibility but Shurukian's that is on the line./ooc

edit: why does bold hate me

Edited September 3, 2009 by Antos

[Augustus Autumn]

You made a statement based on your perception and yet you didn't have complete factual proof that Sparta wanted to roll you.

We all act on belief and perception. You are no different.

I acted on nothing. I duly noted your statement. Feel free to reference the military preparedness of my forces for this Spartan attack I am so fearful of receiving here.

While this digression is amusing, I stand by my point until convinced otherwise by evidence. Athens has brought the charges - the burden of proof lies with them.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[Bilrow]

You should have just canceled this treaty with saying irreconcilable differences (ie: going different paths) especially since TSI was already voting to do the same and you would not have pie on your face.

[Jgoods45]

Never underestimate the overconfidence of the leader of an alliance to attempt score points by shucking a treaty. Also, never underestimate the distances that hypocrisy will compel people toward.

Never underestimate the overconfidence of the leader of an alliance to attempt score points by shucking a treaty. Also, never underestimate the distances that hypocrisy will compel people toward.

Who where we attempting to score points from by shucking a ODP with TSI? Is it CnG? Sparta? Or maybe its Poison Clan? The answer is neither of them. Dont get me wrong, we care about how our allies interact with each other, but when it comes to FA, the decisions are ultimatly ours to make and ours alone.

When we started reviewing our treaties, we went through each of them one by one and talked about how healthy the relationship was and if we saw them getting them stronger in the future. We took into account how Athens and Alliance X interacted with each other and any issues that may have arised during the duration of the treaty up to that point. These discussions led to decisions and these decisions led to 3 cancellations. I still believe that the reasons for the cancellations should of been left out of the public eye and I am disapointed to see where this thread has gone. We done what we think is best for our alliance and we stand behind those decisions 100%.

[TehChron]

You should have just canceled this treaty with saying irreconcilable differences (ie: going different paths) especially since TSI was already voting to do the same and you would not have pie on your face.

*shakes his head*

You all are wasting your time. Athens has lost nothing in this entire exchange.

Edit:

Who where we attempting to score points from by shucking a ODP with TSI? Is it CnG? Sparta? Or maybe its Poison Clan? The answer is neither of them. Dont get me wrong, we care about how our allies interact with each other, but when it comes to FA, the decisions are ultimatly ours to make and ours alone.

Self-victimization. "OMG WE WERE SOLD OUT, PITY US!!! /hiss"

Its a really...well, shallow and pathetic method to try and garner sympathy and positive PR/and/or attention, but meh. This was a no-risk situation for Athens, and Londo took advantage.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Chron

[Shurukian]

That quote appears to shore up my side of things. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at, but it's certainly not a counter to my evidence. Oh btw, check the other [OOC]logs[/OOC] I just posted. Further support that it wasn't NPO that heard it first.

The only thing that your logs show, is that someone in NPO heard it, and told whoever informed you. Which doesn't look sneaky at all.

Other than that, your logs posted before then absolutely disgust me. Never have I ever had a treaty partner treat my alliance with such disrespect. I was never spoken to about any issues, just slandered in back channels. I see what kind of allies Athens is now. All I can say is, thank you, you did us one hell of a favor.

Do you treat all your treaty partners like this, Londo? I remember coming to you and talking to you about issues I had heard, and you didn't have the decent respect to do the same for me. Why wasn't I spoken to about such issues? I've provided logs that have proved both your accusations absolutely incorrect, and all you've managed to do is make yourself look like you insult your allies behind their back, make accusations with no proof, and possibly spy on the NPO. Unless Athens and NPO normally talk like good old friends, which I doubt.

Seriously, stop while you're still swimming. You're hammering a hole in the bottom of your own boat. When it comes down to it, you have no proof of what you've said, and 'Well we thought it!' isn't a good excuse. If you want to go that way, then I'll believe the rumor that you ordered LSF to attack us in the war. I heard it, so it's true, right?

This thread disgusts me.

EDIT::

When we started reviewing our treaties, we went through each of them one by one and talked about how healthy the relationship was and if we saw them getting them stronger in the future. We took into account how Athens and Alliance X interacted with each other and any issues that may have arised during the duration of the treaty up to that point. These discussions led to decisions and these decisions led to 3 cancellations. I still believe that the reasons for the cancellations should of been left out of the public eye and I am disapointed to see where this thread has gone. We done what we think is best for our alliance and we stand behind those decisions 100%.

So tell me Jgoods...

[2009-07-17 22:58:38] <Athens gov member B> stop worrying about the menotah war and go find out why TSI decided to be such pricks

[2009-07-18 17:25:49] <Athens gov member D> droping TSI? :S

[2009-07-18 17:26:20] <Athens gov member A> YES

[2009-07-18 17:26:27] <Athens gov member A> TPF LOVING FOOLS

[2009-07-18 17:26:41] <Athens gov member A> and if we ever had to roll TPF

[2009-07-18 17:26:48] <Athens gov member A> they would tell themn ;(

[2009-07-18 17:26:55] <Athens gov member C> yeah we need to drop TSI

[2009-07-18 17:27:07] <Athens gov member D> true...

[2009-07-18 17:27:11] <Athens gov member C> Shuru only talks to me when she can get info to give to mhawk

[2009-07-18 17:27:12] <Athens gov member C> lol

[2009-07-18 17:27:15] <Athens gov member C> it's bs

Is that what you approve of as official 'review' of an alliance treaty? I've already showed that I recieved no information from Londo about the Menatoah incident, and if anything, he lied to you, and the rest of the government about spreading information. I also told Londo that I wasn't the one referenced in mhawk's post, which it seems he also conveniently forgot to mention. So instead, we get called 'pricks' for something that we didn't even do. I love how Athens' government came to talk to me about these allegations.

And Londo knows very well that us talking about my relationship issues and his love of guns, which was our normal conversation, would not be something that TPF would be horribly interested in. And the only reason that I went to speak with him, is because he simply became too important to spend any time querying me.

I dumped nothing. I shared nothing. Any information getting passed around is your own faults, and it's time you live up to it.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Shurukian

[Bjornoya]

*sigh*

This thread should've ended at that last feel good moment.

Without proper evidence I will believe Shuru is innocent of any wrong doing, clearly Athens and her allies will not believe otherwise, but its hard to believe that this:

Secondly the ODP with The Sasori Initiative. In accordance with this treaty, TSI was privy to information from Athens that we only share with our allies. We are rather unhappy with how TSI handled said information. On two separate occasions during and after the Karma war, this information made its way into the hands of our enemies, who then used it to wage a propaganda war against Athens. To allow this to happen a third time would be rather foolish of us, and so we are cancelling this treaty.

is anything but an attempt to slander TSI's integrity. I really don't see how the logs show otherwise, just that Athen's was not just doing it out of the blue but of their own faulty conclusion. If it was not to slander then there must have been some other reason to bring this up in OWF. Anyone could've predicted the reaction of the community to such an accusation, I should hope this saber-rattling and scab-picking between alliances beyond those concerned is not something Athens would have wanted to create...

And as far as the dancing around 'proof' and 'evidence' I'll base my judgment on the judicial standard 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt.' The prosecution as presented here may be able to win over the typical rumor-mongers but I should hope the general public is not so quick to jumped to the same conclusion Athens did.