Dear Archon

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1296060298' post='2602808']
I would say that it's slightly broader. It would be a terribly boring world if we crushed literally all opposition. Conflict and war is what makes things exciting, as I said to Arrnea - we can't have either of those things without a protagonist to match our antagonism.
[/quote]

I agree, but why not let it happen? With your "Everything. Must. Die." mantra (yes I get you don't literally mean everything)You're sort of preventing something like that forming. Maybe you've bothered enough people to start thinking about it, but how how long do you honestly think it will take if you're stamping it out before it gets anywhere? Or is only assured failure competition acceptable to you guys who are too cool to care?

I get it. It's boring up there. Why not stop signing with what could be your protagonists and piss them off? I won't say war isn't fun, but from my limited experience as a bystander, Karma was a lot of fun in the lead up to the war. I cannot comment on if the war itself was as fun, but the lead up threads brought me here at least.

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='SpiderJerusalem' timestamp='1296059682' post='2602800']
I want the people that don't realize the truth to die. The truth that you know is there, under all their !@#$%^&*, but you never dare to look. That's what I hate about this !@#$@#$ world. Lies are accepted and praised, but the truth is condemned.
[/quote]


That's totally deep bro.

[Epiphanus]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1296061071' post='2602825']
1. You toe the party line, you don't tow it.[/quote]
meh
[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1296061071' post='2602825']
2. Responding to my observations about MK with an attack on me for defending NPO is nonsensical.
3. Saying I have a poor grasp of history by claiming I ignore NPO's travesties [b]despite[/b] after I implicitly label the old NPO as evil is pretty damn nonsensical as well.
4. Change NPO to MK and Doomhouse to TOP and you could have used this post to defend TOP's attack on CnG, which opens you up to justified charges of hypocrisy.

Sigh. You never were a great debater Pip. I suppose I should be happy that you're still trying though.
[/quote]

I wasn't responding to you specifically after that point, but the people in general who are posting in blind faith and following their ~leader~ shcattenman. Call us hypocrites all you want, it doesn't change the fact that we are and will continue to roll pacifica to the ground

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Epiphanus' timestamp='1296061051' post='2602824']
Yes because our declaration on pacifica is a declaration on all of CN. Nice line of logic you have there. inb4 "but it is"
[/quote]
You have attacked an alliance because it [i]maybe[/i] could come to war [i]if[/i] it chains non-chaining treaties. Alternatively (depending on which MKer is trying to polish this turd) you attacked an alliance because it [i]maybe[/i] will [i]one day[/i] be mean to some people. When MK feels justified in rolling alliances based on the 6 degrees of the treaty web or because of things that happened 3 years ago [i]and which have already been punished by war and massive reps once[/i], then yes, you are attacking all of Bob.

[SpiderJerusalem]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1296060769' post='2602816']
Haha, thta's rich. You'd be the one to know, wouldn't you?
[/quote]

I am actually confused. Is this just a "no u", or do you mean [i]anything[/i] by it at all?

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1296061319' post='2602832']
That's totally deep bro.
[/quote]

Nice to see that a man of your intellectual capacity could muster up a proper response. Bravo!

[Voytek]

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1296061075' post='2602826']I agree, but why not let it happen? With your "Everything. Must. Die." mantra (yes I get you don't literally mean everything)You're sort of preventing something like that forming. Maybe you've bothered enough people to start thinking about it, but how how long do you honestly think it will take if you're stamping it out before it gets anywhere? Or is only assured failure competition acceptable to you guys who are too cool to care?[/quote]
Why are you so confident that we'll be stamping everything out before it gets anywhere? NPO is a special case: they are not to be allowed back in the running full stop.

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1296061075' post='2602826']I get it. It's boring up there. Why not stop signing with what could be your protagonists and piss them off?[/quote]
We're not going to actively work against ourselves. If you guys can't scrape something together without us going and throwing the game away (OOC: this is meant in an IC sense as a figure of speech) given such a large "moral" outrage over this war then quite frankly you don't deserve to even get a whiff of top spot.

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='Epiphanus' timestamp='1296061375' post='2602834']
meh


I wasn't responding to you specifically after that point, but the people in general who are posting in blind faith and following their ~leader~ shcattenman. Call us hypocrites all you want, it doesn't change the fact that we are and will continue to roll pacifica to the ground
[/quote]So the choice to respond to my post was what precisely? A mislead? A mistake? Not that it matters really, as your message is muddled, and open to undermining, from the get go due to the disparity of the content matter of the two distinct parts of the post.

As for being fine with being a pack of hypocrites, well, good for you? Your contentment, or lack thereof, means nothing to me since I generally post for my own amusement and not to preach to souls beyond saving.

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='SpiderJerusalem' timestamp='1296061633' post='2602838']
Nice to see that a man of your intellectual capacity could muster up a proper response. Bravo!
[/quote]

A response to what exactly? Did you edit what I quoted? Because what you said was really far out man.

Far out.

[Epiphanus]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1296061851' post='2602844']
So the choice to respond to my post was what precisely? A mislead? A mistake? Not that it matters really, as your message is muddled, and open to undermining, from the get go due to the disparity of the content matter of the two distinct parts of the post.

As for being fine with being a pack of hypocrites, well, good for you? Your contentment, or lack thereof, means nothing to me since I generally post for my own amusement and not to preach to souls beyond saving.
[/quote]

I responded to your post because I didn't believe you were as far up the ~butt~ of Captain Morality as you apparently are. I thought that you genuinely were [i]toe[/i]ing the party line. It is quite obvious now though that your solid opinion of ~[i]morality[/i] is actually your own. Or has been spoon fed to you for so long that you have accepted it as fact. Living a life where you can't ever realize that maybe before you were wrong with the way you perceived it is foolish.

Also, my soul is just fine, thanks.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Epiphanus

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1296061696' post='2602841']
Why are you so confident that we'll be stamping everything out before it gets anywhere? NPO is a special case: they are not to be allowed back in the running full stop.


We're not going to actively work against ourselves. If you guys can't scrape something together without us going and throwing the game away (OOC: this is meant in an IC sense as a figure of speech) given such a large "moral" outrage over this war then quite frankly you don't deserve to even get a whiff of top spot.
[/quote]


You had to go and use the "m" word. D:

Why are you so confident NPO wanted back in the running? Or was close to joining this race? Beating on a seemingly prostrate alliance you have a huge tech advantage over lacks artistry in my opinion. I know you'll hurf durf this, but: I expected better.

[Schattenmann]

"Captain Morality" . . . has a nice ring to it. Did you guys pick that name while I was at ZI for 9 months for your sake? Or just later when it became apparent that I'm the real deal while you're not?

Edited January 26, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Epiphanus]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1296062724' post='2602864']
"Captain Morality" . . . has a nice ring to it. Did you guys pick that name while I was at ZI for 9 months for your sake? Or just later when it became apparent that I'm the real deal while you're not?
[/quote]
Actually that term had nothing to do with you at all. Morality itself needed a namesake, which I gave as Cpt. Morality. Sorry to disappoint you

[Comrade Korey]

[quote name='CEverettKoop' timestamp='1295944092' post='2599602']
Dear Archon,

It would be difficult for me to be any more miserable right now, I feel like the worst person ever. First, let me start by saying that I am truly truly sorry, and I hate myself for hurting you. Of all the people in the whole entire world, you were honestly the last person that I would ever want to wrong in any way.

There is no excuse at all for anything that happened, so I won’t even try other than to say all of us had WAY too much to drink, and I did a stupid thing. I can handle you being pissed at me, I absolutely deserve it, I can even handle the ugly words that were exchanged between us, what I can’t handle is thinking that you see me as a different person. It is weird, the world looked funny yesterday, I couldn’t crack a smile if you paid me, there are songs I can’t listen to, and I just feel beyond crushed.

I don’t know if you meant everything you said to me, and I am hoping that you didn’t. I know that I was wrong on many kevels, but I am also hoping that this is something that we can deal with. I know it sounds totally crazy and stupid, I can’t imagine my days without you. It is totally strange and weird to say that, and you could say that my behavior didn’t reflect that, and you would be correct. I hate feeling like you hate me, and I hate feeling like all of your friends think I am a terrible person, because I am not. I know there is nothing I can say or do to take back what happened. I am so sorry.

-Schattenmann
[/quote]
You're a little too good at that. Just sayin'

Dear Schattenman,
I love you, and I know Purge most certainly wasn't one of those lame alliances you speak of

[Voytek]

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1296062280' post='2602857']You had to go and use the "m" word. D:[/quote]
If it helps I treated it with contempt such a massive lie of convenience deserves

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1296062280' post='2602857']Why are you so confident NPO wanted back in the running? Or was close to joining this race? Beating on a seemingly prostrate alliance you have a huge tech advantage over lacks artistry in my opinion.[/quote]
Oh please. Don't insult my intelligence with that "they've really changed honest!" crap. They're very good at playing the martyrdom card but they're not at all good at pretending to be something they're not. They're sorry that they lost Karma, not for the actions that precipitated it and I don't believe for one second that anyone other than the most indoctrinated Orderites truly thinks otherwise.

As far as the bit about fairness or whatever goes, fairness doesn't even begin to factor into things when it comes to Pacifica. They've done their dash - they will not be allowed anywhere near the halls of power ever again.

[Gobb]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1296059780' post='2602801']
You're oversimplifying.

No one is claiming MK has [i]literally[/i] become a cookie cutter copy of NPO. You have, however, picked up quite a few of their undesirable traits, like aggression for the sake of aggression, unbridled public arrogance, a narrow-minded obsession with the past and a sense of elitist entitlement which leads you write off opposing ideas as superfluous.
[/quote]
I'm sorry if it wasn't clear: all comparisons ranging from "your actions are as bad as NPO's" to "you have literally become New Pacific Order" are wrong. As I said, you may find something in common for MK and NPO, but in the end will end up falling short of justifying the outrage and cries about us being as bad as them. Your examples are again trying to fit us through an odd shape, since they are all either shared with multiple alliances all over the web, or have been a part of us since our inception. Those are traits of an old evil and must belong the new evil as well, I get it. But they just don't fit.

[SpiderJerusalem]

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1296061912' post='2602846']
A response to what exactly? Did you edit what I quoted? Because what you said was really far out man.

Far out.
[/quote]

Ok, I'll translate, just for the slackjawed ones out there

If you for a second buy that crap about "we're reformed" and "just look, we have no transgressions", you are either stupid, ignorant or both. The fact is that NPO and others have lied, are lying and will forever lie to get what they want. What they want is revenge. Revenge on the world that let them burn. Revenge on the people that took away their power. I don't want that kind of world. I don't want a kind of world where you lie, manipulate and conspire your way to power. I don't want a world where the lobotomized crowd are happy with a manufactured CB, just because it's "tradition" or "customary". I don't a world where the few oppress the many, like it was before.

They want their old ways reinstated, some enemies to use their jackboot on and they want a harem of lapdogs. I am guessing that you are content of being the latter.

To better illustrate my point, I have a selection of Machiavelli quotes (not that I expect everyone to understand them either... *cough* )

[i]"No enterprise is more likely to succeed than one concealed from the enemy until it is ripe for execution"[/i]

That's the game plan for NPO. We can't let them follow that game plan

[i]"War is just when it is necessary"[/i]

And trust me, it's necessary now

[i]"There is no avoiding war; it can only be postponed to the advantage of others"[/i]

Fairly self explanatory?

[i]Whoever conquers a free town and does not demolish it commits a great error and may expect to be ruined himself[/i]

It's now time to demolish the town




Good luck in understanding, I have a feeling you need it

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1296063284' post='2602871']
If it helps I treated it with contempt such a massive lie of convenience deserves


Oh please. Don't insult my intelligence with that "they've really changed honest!" crap. They're very good at playing the martyrdom card but they're not at all good at pretending to be something they're not. They're sorry that they lost Karma, not for the actions that precipitated it and I don't believe for one second that anyone other than the most indoctrinated Orderites truly thinks otherwise.

As far as the bit about fairness or whatever goes, fairness doesn't even begin to factor into things when it comes to Pacifica. They've done their dash - they will not be allowed anywhere near the halls of power ever again.
[/quote]


I don't see where I've claimed they've changed, but I can see that they've certainly had things changed for them, though. No one will really be able to tell if they've changed unless they somehow find themselves with the ability to commit the actions that precipitated Karma again. Do you honestly think they were anywhere near that point? They had a lot of the meat from your "side" at the time so until you give them up, it's all guesswork.

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='SpiderJerusalem' timestamp='1296063757' post='2602882']
Ok, I'll translate, just for the slackjawed ones out there

If you for a second buy that crap about "we're reformed" and "just look, we have no transgressions", you are either stupid, ignorant or both. The fact is that NPO and others have lied, are lying and will forever lie to get what they want. What they want is revenge. Revenge on the world that let them burn. Revenge on the people that took away their power. I don't want that kind of world. I don't want a kind of world where you lie, manipulate and conspire your way to power. I don't want a world where the lobotomized crowd are happy with a manufactured CB, just because it's "tradition" or "customary". I don't a world where the few oppress the many, like it was before.
[/quote]

So this is all altruistic and a service to the planet. I appreciate your service.

Also: Far out man.

[SpiderJerusalem]

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1296064296' post='2602891']
So this is all altruistic and a service to the planet. I appreciate your service.

Also: Far out man.
[/quote]

Oh my, you really are a lost case

I guess I should feel sorry for you then

Here you go sport, it's a gift. Better start wearing it before the damage done is too great

[img]http://davelove.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/helmet.jpg[/img]

[Voytek]

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1296063944' post='2602886']
I don't see where I've claimed they've changed, but I can see that they've certainly had things changed for them, though. No one will really be able to tell if they've changed unless they somehow find themselves with the ability to commit the actions that precipitated Karma again. Do you honestly think they were anywhere near that point? They had a lot of the meat from your "side" at the time so until you give them up, it's all guesswork.
[/quote]
I like our odds of having read them correctly with all the material they've been providing us (and I won't lose any sleep if we are in fact wrong). I don't think they were very close to it, no, but there's no time like the present for scratching an itch.

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1296058623' post='2602781']
Allow me to introduce you to the concept of engaging in hyperbole for the sake of a bit of propaganda.
[/quote]How did I miss this gem?

Propaganda serves two distinct purpose in rallying external support for a cause and maintaining internal morale. Given the nature of the "EVERYTHING MUST DIE" slogan, I'd assume it was meant more for the latter and not the former. What's ironic is the same nature apparently undermines the external support facet to such an extent that you have needed to publicly backpedal on the entire campaign by labeling it mindless propaganda, which pretty much undermines any effects on internal morale by exposing its foundation as meaningless.

So congratulations! You're incompetent!

[quote name='Epiphanus' timestamp='1296062208' post='2602856']
I responded to your post because I didn't believe you were as far up the ~butt~ of Captain Morality. That you genuinely were [i]toe[/i]ing the party line. It is quite obvious now though that your solid opinion of ~[i]morality[/i] is actually your own. Or has been spoon fed to you for so long that you have accepted it as fact. Living a life where you can't ever realize that maybe before you were wrong with the way you perceived it is foolish.[/quote]Morality, in simple terms of right and wrong, is a necessary component of life in this universe because without it trust could not exist and without trust alliances, the backbone of political life, would be nonexistent.

That said, I only subscribe to my own moral code, which I do not try to export or adapt to popular trends and the ideas of others. Because of that, I can make my own judgments and apply my own labels with a clear conscience and laugh at your attempts to identify me with moralistic caricatures.

[quote]Also, my soul is just fine, thanks.[/quote]If you say so.

[quote name='Lord Gobb' timestamp='1296063551' post='2602877']I'm sorry if it wasn't clear: all comparisons ranging from "your actions are as bad as NPO's" to "you have literally become New Pacific Order" are wrong. As I said, you may find something in common for MK and NPO, but in the end will end up falling short of justifying the outrage and cries about us being as bad as them. Your examples are again trying to fit us through an odd shape, since they are all either shared with multiple alliances all over the web, or have been a part of us since our inception. Those are traits of an old evil and must belong the new evil as well, I get it. But they just don't fit.[/quote]My dear Gobb, you are so very wrong about my methodology.

I don't look at MK, label it the new evil, and then try to find evidence to support my assertion. I look at MK, see evil acts and then arrive at the conclusion that MK has veered onto a path similar to that of NPO of old.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Fallen Fool

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='SpiderJerusalem' timestamp='1296064450' post='2602895']
Oh my, you really are a lost case

I guess I should feel sorry for you then

Here you go sport, it's a gift. Better start wearing it before the damage done is too great
[/quote]

Yeah, thanks.

I'm just trying to reconcile "Everything. Must. Die." with your "NPO is in your [i]food[/i], man" drivel.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1296064660' post='2602900']
How did I miss this gem?

Propaganda serves two distinct purpose in rallying external support for a cause and maintaining internal morale. Given the nature of the "EVERYTHING MUST DIE" slogan, I'd assume it was meant more for the latter and not the former. What's ironic is the same nature apparently undermines the external support facet to such an extent that you have needed to publicly backpedal on the entire campaign by labeling it mindless propaganda, which pretty much undermines any effects on internal morale by exposing its foundation as meaningless.

So congratulations! You're incompetent![/quote]
OR maybe we found a [OOC]youtube clip of a song with that name[/OOC] awhile ago and thought it would be funny to use it in things. You know, either or. All options are open here.

[Epiphanus]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1296064660' post='2602900']
Morality, in simple terms of right and wrong, is a necessary component of life in this universe because without it trust could not exist and without trust alliances, the backbone of political life, would be nonexistent.

That said, I only subscribe to my own moral code, which I do not try to export or adapt to popular trends and the ideas of others. Because of that, I can make my own judgments and apply my own labels with a clear conscience and laugh at your attempts to identify me with moralistic caricatures.
[/quote]
The morality which you are talking about is separate from the defined (or undefined) version of "moralist" that CN is plagued with. You can disagree with me whether it is a plague, but to me, the moralist stance is not a healthy one for the good of CN. If we all just got along and sang hippy songs together, we'd all be versions of the GPA. If an alliance chooses to partake in the competitive part of CN, which includes global politics, then they do so at their own risk. No one is averse to people creating their own RP communities separate from the CN community at large. Alliances like GPA and WTF have done a pretty good job over the years. However, when you step into the true muck and grime of CN politics, it is all about personal gains for you and yours. Anyone who argues that they play CN politics to get along with everyone is either lying or disillusioned. Cybernations has a war component for a reason.

I'm not saying that we don't need some values in this game. You are right that a foundation of trust must occur for anyone to get along. Without some level of morality the world would delve into chaos. However, saying we all have to be moralists for the world to survive is taking your definition of morality to the extreme. It's obvious you understand this by your first statement. However, if you fall into the hive-mind of collective people spouting off about what you call moralistic issues involved in our actions, then I have every right to type-cast you into the mold you are filling so well. It's like a shoe trying to say that he's not a shoe because he's actually a basketball shoe. A shoe is a shoe, whether you think you are different from all the other shoes out there or you don't want to be called a shoe because you say you aren't a shoe, the fact remains you are still a shoe.

We all have a different grasp on the level of morality that is needed in the world. Those who adhere to strict moral codes get called moralists. If you want to spout of rhetoric from that mindset, you will get called a moralist whether you like it or not.

[Geoffron X]

[quote name='SpiderJerusalem' timestamp='1296063757' post='2602882']
Ok, I'll translate, just for the slackjawed ones out there

If you for a second buy that crap about "we're reformed" and "just look, we have no transgressions", you are either stupid, ignorant or both. The fact is that NPO and others have lied, are lying and will forever lie to get what they want.
[/quote]
Citation needed.