The GM's Court

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1308846208' post='2739398']
Yes yes it is your problem. You make these constant assumptions that whomever you are fighting be they Ty, be they SOM are smart enough to run advanced industrialized nations and build fleets of nuclear bombers and submarines but somehow too stupid to use ground bursts against bunkers. That IS your problem nobody elses in the game. If you want us to be courteous and talk to you or hold off attacks, then you need to stop being such a huge pain in the ass and make showing simple respect to other RPers and stop trying to drive a big ass semi through every loop hole you think you can see and then take you to the GM court every single time and make it like pulling teeth. You want us to consult you, show some god damn respect for other people once in a while.
[/quote]
I'm most likely a pain for most because I'm an anti-establishment player, and drive things hard. However, when people go lolnuke without so much as a PM asking anything about my nation (Ty), this isn't a matter of having respect. And I'm not sure whether SOM is even a big issue of respect here, since I did ask him what he had in mind, and it's true that my forces were too spread out for there to be any sort of effective damages, especially when he was [b][i]carpetbombing[/b][/i] using 10 megaton-class weapons from bombers.

You say I need to show respect for people. Well, I've done that a bit, but it sure didn't get me any respect from most of the population who happen to be the ones that relies on pixels the most, with complete BS false flags going around. You, Cent, Martens, Sarah, Cochin, EM, and PI (sorry for those that haven't been mentioned, you know who you are) have been very respectful, and I thank you people for that. But really, unless the caliber of most of the players go up, I don't expect this chain to be cut anytime soon.

[Triyun]

I do not think you can use establishment versus anti-establishment as an excuse. I was anti-establishment when I started and forged a new establishment alongside others. I did not try and do so through loopholes. Being anti-establishment IC does not mean you need to go out of your way to screw someone over OOC because they didn't type a sentence out to your satisfaction. This has nothing to do with sides politically, you spent a good deal of your time IC allied to me and RA which were two of the most establishment nations and you still tried to use loopholes. He was specifically using the nukes against the bunkers, why would he airburst? He wouldn't would it help if he came on and said it was not an airburst.

Secondly, who cares what people do IC. IC has nothing to do with OOC respect. You can contest something IC all you want, that is different from just assuming people are idiots and trying to use a lack of dotting every single I and crossing every single T as a reason to get out of RPing damages consistently. You can be IC aggressive and be respectful, you cannot be an OOC constant loophole seeker and still show the same level of respect.

[Fizzydog]

[s]Need 6 nuclear rolls against Pravus please.

In this order: Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Virginia Beach, New York City, New York City.[/s]

Since this is obviously not a good idea, nor a well thought out one, can we just let Pravus SDI them all?

Edited June 23, 2011 by Fizzydog

[Bacharth]

I am putting forth a motion to ban Fizzy from CNRP until he turns 18.

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Vince Sixx' timestamp='1308859296' post='2739561']
I am putting forth a motion to ban Fizzy from CNRP until he turns 18.
[/quote]

I second the motion.

[Zoot Zoot]

Thirded

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1308840619' post='2739357']
As I recall the USGS can track nuclear explosions even small ones like the .5 kiloton one North Korea did the first time. With the plethora of nuclear detonations across the North I would like to request a spy roll for the UFE National Geospatial Agency and National Geological Service to work together to map the way in which energy traveled to different points in the UFE territory (China, Ryukyu's, Offshore Korean Islands, Siberia) presumably with a tunnel complex this large there would be huge amount of hallow space which would cause the hydrogen bombs that have been detonated to have their seismic readings move differently. This spy roll (who if successful would unroll over several combat posts) would begin to put this picture together.
[/quote]

Can you drop a link that would explain this line of reasoning further? Right now all i'm seeing is 'nuke a bunch of times, and check to see if their blast effects tell the UFE something about Korean bunkers'. Seems a bit farfetched to me.

[Triyun]

USGS can determine the location of a nuclear test pretty much anywhere in the world using seisometers. Now what is going on here is that there have been several nuclear detonations of quite large a size in Korea. Kankou is RPing fitting tens of thousands of vehicles/artillery/missiles/rounds of ammunitions and hundreds of thousands of soldiers in a very small area, which means you need to have a !@#$ ton of excavation done. Because the seismic waves from a nuclear blast would travel differently under solid ground than under these huge ass areas, the UFE is using that to determine the relative location of the larger bunkers and hitting them with area effect ground burst hydrogen bombs.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1308863357' post='2739609']
USGS can determine the location of a nuclear test pretty much anywhere in the world using seisometers. Now what is going on here is that there have been several nuclear detonations of quite large a size in Korea. Kankou is RPing fitting tens of thousands of vehicles/artillery/missiles/rounds of ammunitions and hundreds of thousands of soldiers in a very small area, which means you need to have a !@#$ ton of excavation done. Because the seismic waves from a nuclear blast would travel differently under solid ground than under these huge ass areas, the UFE is using that to determine the relative location of the larger bunkers and hitting them with area effect ground burst hydrogen bombs.
[/quote]
You forgot Triyun: I had the 450,000 troops along a 1435 kilometer-long border. Even if I put the troops into single divisions, those division would be 31 kilometers part.

More importantly, I would barely be digging out 5% of the total mass of the mountain ranges to house all that I need. Seismic waves would barely be affected, if such effects can be registered at all. While blast air waves would travel through the tunnels, they would need to destroy tends of pressure/blast doors along the way, basically stopping the vibration from traveling further. What you're proposing is a physically impossible method given the extent of the geography you're up against.


PS: GMs, please do 20 nuclear rolls, for Triyun

Edited June 23, 2011 by Kankou

[Zoot Zoot]

Just for a question, where was the RP done for this extensive bunker network?

[Triyun]

That was a typo, make it ten rolls.

Kankou you aren't accounting for all the support systems, ammunition reserves, spare parts, repair shops, fuel reserves, food, water, waste treatment (there would need to be SOME), power etc, that you'd need to sustain this complex you speak of. You RPed there being a ton of heavy equipment, not just 450, 000 men huddled together.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1308864697' post='2739620']
Kankou you aren't accounting for all the support systems, ammunition reserves, spare parts, repair shops, fuel reserves, food, water, waste treatment (there would need to be SOME), power etc, that you'd need to sustain this complex you speak of. You RPed there being a ton of heavy equipment, not just 450, 000 men huddled together.
[/quote]
I am accounting for all that: The point is that we're looking at an area that have basalt lava plateau with elevations between 1400 and 2000 m above sea level, while the general height would be 1000 m above sea level. Unless I put my entire northern population into the hills, we're looking at plenty of rock to pretty much prevent any sort of re-vibrations you're seeking.

I can give you like one or two additional nodes for the amount of nukes you're using, but really, the physics goes against you in this region.

Topographic map of Korea: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Korean_Peninsula_topographic_map.png

Edited June 23, 2011 by Kankou

[Triyun]

Fortunately, we have a real life example of where a nuclear test took place in the region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_North_Korean_nuclear_test

The USGS used seismic readings in this case to detect a nuclear test that was thousands of times less powerful than the bombs that have been detonating in your territory.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1308869022' post='2739661']
Fortunately, we have a real life example of where a nuclear test took place in the region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_North_Korean_nuclear_test

The USGS used seismic readings in this case to detect a nuclear test that was thousands of times less powerful than the bombs that have been detonating in your territory.
[/quote]
Detecting a nuclear explosion among peace and quiet is completely different from forming the map of underground facilities using vibrations which wouldn't change a bit just because it has some tunnels under over 500 meters of solid rock.

Really Triyun, this is grasping at straws here. Ironic that I'm one to say this, though.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1308869193' post='2739665']
Detecting a nuclear explosion among peace and quiet is completely different from forming the map of underground facilities using vibrations which wouldn't change a bit just because it has some tunnels under over 500 meters of solid rock.

Really Triyun, this is grasping at straws here. Ironic that I'm one to say this, though.
[/quote]

Seismographs can be adjusted to only register a certain range of frequencies and the sorts. Given that general shockwaves adhere to common longitudinal & transverse properties (comparable to secondary waves generated by earthquakes), and given the pure energy released by a 5 MT thermonuclear explosion (x3) on impact, it isn't as far-fetched as you would think, especially given that with super-computer capabilities, the shear amount of energy would not cause the seismograph itself to break/be unable to collect the information.

The USGS has been using P & S waves to map the interior of the Earth for decades now, all while competing with constant vibrations coming from earthquakes, which generate energy equal to [i]multiple[/i] atomic bombs (especially when large stress faults are involved, such as the 2004 tsunami, which was equal to an enormous amount of energy equal to dozens of mid-generation atomic/fission bombs). Whether its rock, steel, or granite, all rocks transfer P and S-waves with little exception. And given sensitive sensors that a super-computer would only be capable of detecting (I'd imagine), you can easily detect the discrepancies revolving around the inability of secondary waves (longitudinal waves) to pass through fluids. Since a bunker system implies empty spaces filled only with air, this would create a "stoppage point" in which the transverse/shear waves would cease to continue moving radially and only compressional waves (which can move through fluids) would move on.

Using transverse/shear waves has been a tried and proven method for detecting numerous things in the Earth's interior; everything from volcanic chambers to aquitards/aquicludes/aquifers to oil & natural gas wells can be detected by using compressional and longitudinal waves. And since the energy of an earthquake is [i]considerably[/i] less than that of a 5 MT explosion at its hypocenter (or focus for the common term), the distance it would radially progress would be global, since most earthquakes generate enough energy to create a full spherical image of Earth over time. Naturally this sort of imaging would not be instantaneous, but as long as multiple seismographs at separate locations are running in conjunction with one another to accurately pinpoint the epicenter (and estimate the hypocenter), it is well within reason to create a comparable map that Triyun is talking about.

EDIT

Forgot to mention that if these waves can be detected when they pass through the Earth's interior/core at substantially higher pressures and what not, solid rock doesn't stop vibrations at all and as said, sensitive sensors can pick up on this no problem. If you want real-life evidence of this, go to a volcanically active mountain range during a live-eruption (say Hawaii). The vibrations you feel are very real.

EDIT EDIT

Bah, mixed up S-waves and longitudinal waves. S-waves are transverse waves; P-waves are a bastardization of longitudinal waves.

Edited June 24, 2011 by SpacingOutMan

[Triyun]

If your going to claim 500 feet deep bunkers for 840, 000 men, you really NEED to have an in game wonder equivalent. Its not like they don't exist. There is one, you simply don't have it.

[Zoot Zoot]

My mind is officially blown.

[Kankou]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1308878962' post='2739816']
Naturally this sort of imaging would not be instantaneous, but as long as multiple seismographs at separate locations are running in conjunction with one another to accurately pinpoint the epicenter (and estimate the hypocenter), it is well within reason to create a comparable map that Triyun is talking about.[/quote]

While I'm going through the rest of the post, there's a slight problem with the number of seismographs that would be needed. The reason why the USGS has been able to map out interiors of earth and such was that it had access to information through the Global Seismographic Network, with links to 150 global stations. Aside from the time needed for all the information to be gathered, the fact that it would take some time for those stations (if they exist) to give Triyun the information he would need, since there has been no global network established at any point in CNRP.


About the Wonder argument: Really, I never understood the purpose of that. Unless it's for something like an impregnable bunker, why should we even need to consider it?

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1308880011' post='2739829']
While I'm going through the rest of the post, there's a slight problem with the number of seismographs that would be needed. The reason why the USGS has been able to map out interiors of earth and such was that it had access to information through the Global Seismographic Network, with links to 150 global stations.[/quote]

Hence the conditional "multiple" and "super computer" inferences in my post. At any rate, he isn't creating a seismographic image of the interior of the Earth; he is localizing it to a few hundred kilometers, and given the way in which P & S waves "deflect", you would only need a handful stationed at key points radially around the point(s) of interest.

Edited June 24, 2011 by SpacingOutMan

[Triyun]

Why should we need a manhattan project, why should we need HNMS, why should we need a WRC, why should we need an SDI. Every single nuclear wonder in CN has a CN RP effect. The Fallout Shelter is not an exception. By your logic, if you fly a B-2 over my territory and drop and atomic bomb, if I can shot it down, I should be able to without an SDI, I really don't need it. Its junk. The fact of the matter is you need to RP to your stats, you simply are not. You are RPing what is the in game fall out shelter on steroids with nothing other than saying 'North Korea has it for realz' and arbitrarily deciding which IG wonders you want to follow and which you do not. You as a single player simply lack that right.

[Kankou]

What of the internet, dear Triyun?

[Zoot Zoot]

Without the wonder it's a dialup Internet.

With wonder it's like broadband.

[Triyun]

Economic wonders are different from military ones in CN RP, always have been. The issue is not that you could not RP some shelters, but near nuke proof (which is what your doing) for an army of 800, 000 is not that and you know it. There is an in game equivalent you're ignoring it to suit your purpose and claiming what an IRL nation in the area built as justification for it, its ridiculous.

[Sargun II]

Just curious, and I'm not sure if this was asked, but where was the extensive, months-long RP necessary for such a feat RP'd out at? A link if possible

Edited June 24, 2011 by Sargun

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1308880414' post='2739839']
You are RPing what is the in game fall out shelter on steroids with nothing other than saying 'North Korea has it for realz' and arbitrarily deciding which IG wonders you want to follow and which you do not.
[/quote]


[quote name='Sargun' timestamp='1308881089' post='2739855']
Just curious, and I'm not sure if this was asked, but where was the extensive, months-long RP necessary for such a feat RP'd out at? A link if possible
[/quote]

Kankou - must bring myself to agree with these sentiments.

To the first statement, i believe that the capacity for someone to declare such bunker networks that are [b]immune to nuking [/b]relies on that person having an ingame wonder - [u]especially without the lack of the RP sargun mentions[/u] in the second.

If you had no FSN, but had the extensive RP behind it, I would be partial to allowing them.

Unless I am mistaken, you have neither. I'm going to have to replace your high tech tunnels with Osama Bin Laden caves unless you can bring anything up to save you.