The GM's Court

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Sargun' timestamp='1307760978' post='2728976']
The [b]issue[/b] is that Voodoo is saying that he has forces in the area while Amyante is contesting that by saying Voodoo would have needed to gain permission from other nations to get troops in the area, and because he didn't get the permission or RP the troops actually getting to the protectorate, then Voodoo shouldn't have any troops there. Thus, if Voodoo doesn't have troops, then he can't fire on Amyante's soldiers while they cross into the area, and thus also couldn't do the whole "allies, help us our troops are under attack" thing as well (though he could go "help this is conflicted" but that's an entire different IC thing).
[/quote]

Yeah, that part seemed pretty cut and dry to me. I just thought this stemmed from Voo's desire to obtain the protectorate without incident. Since Voo hasn't really explained away that little detail, im prepared to wipe his troops if need be.

But i'd doubt it'd come to that. Also, warrrrrr

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Sargun' timestamp='1307760978' post='2728976']
The [b]issue[/b] is that Voodoo is saying that he has forces in the area while Amyante is contesting that by saying Voodoo would have needed to gain permission from other nations to get troops in the area, and because he didn't get the permission or RP the troops actually getting to the protectorate, then Voodoo shouldn't have any troops there. Thus, if Voodoo doesn't have troops, then he can't fire on Amyante's soldiers while they cross into the area, and thus also couldn't do the whole "allies, help us our troops are under attack" thing as well (though he could go "help this is conflicted" but that's an entire different IC thing).
[/quote]


[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1307761534' post='2728979']
Yeah, that part seemed pretty cut and dry to me. I just thought this stemmed from Voo's desire to obtain the protectorate without incident. Since Voo hasn't really explained away that little detail, im prepared to wipe his troops if need be.

But i'd doubt it'd come to that. Also, warrrrrr
[/quote]

^
This.

As I stated earlier, at this time, there are NO Novakian troops in former Xinyan, because Voodoo did not RP sending them. I remember a previous issue where something similar had occurred. Then it was decided that when a protectorate is declared on a region very close to your own territories, explicit troop deployments need not be done. However if it is in a non native region, you must RP sending your forces there.

If say a region like Kansas or Kentucky in USA became open, Kingdom of Cochin could claim protectorate, but such a claim would be subject to any other nation not calling my bluff. Voodoo's obtaining of the protectorate in xinyan seems very much similar to it. I say it ought to be resolved ICly by Amyante taking the risk inherent in it.

I do not think we GMs should be either nullifying Voodoo's protectorate claim nor should we be permitting Voodoo to magically create soldiers there without proper RP for how they were deployed there from his Middle East nation. And no, Voodoo cannot claim he recruited troops from his people in Xinyan because I consider Xinyan to be a disputed territory.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Sargun' timestamp='1307753599' post='2728916']
The problem being that the land was contested, and as we know through the Slavorussia-Torun debacle that contested citizens don't belong to anyone.
[/quote]


[quote name='king of cochin' timestamp='1307767912' post='2729026']
^
This.

As I stated earlier, at this time, there are NO Novakian troops in former Xinyan, because Voodoo did not RP sending them. I remember a previous issue where something similar had occurred. Then it was decided that when a protectorate is declared on a region very close to your own territories, explicit troop deployments need not be done. However if it is in a non native region, you must RP sending your forces there.

If say a region like Kansas or Kentucky in USA became open, Kingdom of Cochin could claim protectorate, but such a claim would be subject to any other nation not calling my bluff. Voodoo's obtaining of the protectorate in xinyan seems very much similar to it. I say it ought to be resolved ICly by Amyante taking the risk inherent in it.

I do not think we GMs should be either nullifying Voodoo's protectorate claim nor should we be permitting Voodoo to magically create soldiers there without proper RP for how they were deployed there from his Middle East nation. And no, Voodoo cannot claim he recruited troops from his people in Xinyan because I consider Xinyan to be a disputed territory.
[/quote]

The region only became contested after almost a full week in real life had passed, with this resembling months in rp he has had plenty of time to rp soldiers locally being trained and very much obtained the right to rp the citizens.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Centurius

[Lynneth]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1307793183' post='2729132']
The region only became contested after almost a full week in real life had passed, with this resembling months in rp he has had plenty of time to rp soldiers locally being trained and very much obtained the right to rp the citizens.
[/quote]
And he RPd them being trained where? :V
If I make a new nation, I still have to say that I'm training my troops to get an army.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Lynneth' timestamp='1307796046' post='2729137']
And he RPd them being trained where? :V
If I make a new nation, I still have to say that I'm training my troops to get an army.
[/quote]

No you don't, people rp entire armed forces without rp of the units being trained/constructed all the time.

[Zoot Zoot]

IMO, its an ICly matter regardless. Vood didnt RP troops moving in, he didnt RP raising a local militia to claim the territory and he didnt already have soldiers on the ground. He can claim what we wants, but he cant enforce it easily. Eitherway the RP has taken its course and Amyante seems to be getting blown to hell by Voods various allies. So its a little late for GM intervention now anyway.

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1307793183' post='2729132']
The region only became contested after almost a full week in real life had passed, with this resembling months in rp he has had plenty of time to rp soldiers locally being trained and very much obtained the right to rp the citizens.
[/quote]

And it has been noted multiple times in the World Map thread that nobody told Amyante about dotCom's bs - which was an OOC matter that directly hurt Amyante's IC response in this case. dotCom and Voodoo deliberately did not tell Amyante about it, which is really scummy !@#$ to do.

[Zoot Zoot]

[quote name='Sargun' timestamp='1307799151' post='2729151']
And it has been noted multiple times in the World Map thread that nobody told Amyante about dotCom's bs - which was an OOC matter that directly hurt Amyante's IC response in this case. dotCom and Voodoo deliberately did not tell Amyante about it, which is really scummy !@#$ to do.
[/quote]

Thats what Californian did during the big war in Britain when he ninja'd the Isle of Man out from under our noses.

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1307799862' post='2729159']
Thats what Californian did during the big war in Britain when he ninja'd the Isle of Man out from under our noses.
[/quote]

LOL Yeah that was hilarious, sucks for you

[Kankou]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1307793183' post='2729132']
The region only became contested after almost a full week in real life had passed, with this resembling months in rp he has had plenty of time to rp soldiers locally being trained and very much obtained the right to rp the citizens.
[/quote]
It became a issue that late [b]no[/b] one said a word about it, and I had to bump indirectly bump the issue as you can see in this post: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=94994&view=findpost&p=2711678

In addition, Voodoo had completely ignored Amyante's post, and both dotCom and Voodoo had ignored any attempts by Amyante to communicate and realize a way to get the RP going. Given the actions on part of Voodoo, we cannot say that Amyante did this out of laziness, given how the original RP thread was literally buried by other threads within the three days betweenthe 8th and the 11th.


[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1307796719' post='2729141']
No you don't, people rp entire armed forces without rp of the units being trained/constructed all the time.
[/quote]
I believe you have to actually RP out the construction of the armed forces, even if it's in a single post.


[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1307799862' post='2729159']
Thats what Californian did during the big war in Britain when he ninja'd the Isle of Man out from under our noses.
[/quote]
Except that he constantly RPed things going on (including actual occupation) and actually responded to your messages. Amyante's case is where the supposed protector never managed RPed sending any troops, never RPed building up troops, and never bothered to respond to any protests on part of Amyante. Sort of a different class of things here.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Kankou

[Triyun]

Kankou it feels like you are saying you personally are entitled to make the judgement of who can and cannot take a protectorate. Further it seems that you are saying that Voodoo and dotCom are obligated to contact someone about a land exchange between them. They aren't at all. Once Amy gave away the territory, there was a risk of giving it to someone who didn't really care all that much about previous agreements and it would be up to Amyante to enforce them.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1307800835' post='2729167']
Kankou it feels like you are saying you personally are entitled to make the judgement of who can and cannot take a protectorate. [/quote]
I'm just providing support for Amyante. The ultimate decisions would be made by the GMs, of course.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1307800835' post='2729167']Further it seems that you are saying that Voodoo and dotCom are obligated to contact someone about a land exchange between them. They aren't at all. Once Amy gave away the territory, there was a risk of giving it to someone who didn't really care all that much about previous agreements and it would be up to Amyante to enforce them.[/quote]
Not necessarily an IC contact, but complete ignoring of OOC PMs, and never posting the land transfer in the map thread sort of takes away any sort of argument that Voodoo could have brought up to support his claim that he had played fairly.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Sargun' timestamp='1307799151' post='2729151']
And it has been noted multiple times in the World Map thread that nobody told Amyante about dotCom's bs - which was an OOC matter that directly hurt Amyante's IC response in this case. dotCom and Voodoo deliberately did not tell Amyante about it, which is really scummy !@#$ to do.
[/quote]

Eh no, they didn't think it was needed to tell Amyante considering it was dotCom's land and the rp happened in a thread everyone and their mothers could see.

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1307800236' post='2729162']
It became a issue that late [b]no[/b] one said a word about it, and I had to bump indirectly bump the issue as you can see in this post: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=94994&view=findpost&p=2711678[/quote]

The thread remained on the forefront of the forum for close to 2 days as the forums weren't busy at the time, there was no vague thread title and no deliberate attempts were made to keep the land hidden.

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1307800236' post='2729162']
In addition, Voodoo had completely ignored Amyante's post, and both dotCom and Voodoo had ignored any attempts by Amyante to communicate and realize a way to get the RP going. Given the actions on part of Voodoo, we cannot say that Amyante did this out of laziness, given how the original RP thread was literally buried by other threads within the three days betweenthe 8th and the 11th.[/quote]

The simple fact is that while it probably would have been correct morally to give Amyante notice it is nowhere established as a rule, or a ruling for that matter. A thread was posted, Amyante could have read it and could have responded before the land transfer was made. After the land transfer happened another week passed before any kind of response from his side came. It's the early bird that catches the worm.

Should Voodoo and dotCom have told Amyante in private? Sure. Does not telling in private break any rule? Of course not. We're not the morality police.

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1307800236' post='2729162']
I believe you have to actually RP out the construction of the armed forces, even if it's in a single post.
[/quote]

Again, no you don't.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Centurius

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1307803252' post='2729186']
Eh no, they didn't think it was needed to tell Amyante considering it was dotCom's land and the rp happened in a thread everyone and their mothers could see.

The thread remained on the forefront of the forum for close to 2 days as the forums weren't busy at the time, there was no vague thread title and no deliberate attempts were made to keep the land hidden.

The simple fact is that while it probably would have been correct morally to give Amyante notice it is nowhere established as a rule, or a ruling for that matter. A thread was posted, Amyante could have read it and could have responded before the land transfer was made. After the land transfer happened another week passed before any kind of response from his side came. It's the early bird that catches the worm.

Should Voodoo and dotCom have told Amyante in private? Sure. Does not telling in private break any rule? Of course not. We're not the morality police.

Again, no you don't.
[/quote]

Actually, with Amyante having a direct IC interest in the land then he should have been told immediately, especially since Amyante was under the belief the land would revert back to him. They didn't have to tell Amyante in private - they could have told him in public. Nobody reads every single thread, Centurius, especially not "closed" threads where they're not even invited in the first place. Yes, there were deliberate attempts to keep the land change hidden - dotCom and Voodoo didn't do anything IC or OOC to tell anyone about the land change other than a ridiculously quick, closed thread. It took literally an hour for the thread to be done, and then it was never brought up again until Amyante was finally notified.

The problem with your reasoning is you assume everyone is omniscient or omnipresent, that everyone looks at every thread all the time. Even active players miss threads, not to mention people with normal or lower activity like Amyante, and you can't punish him for simply being unaware of a thread. [b]There is no reasonable expectation for everyone to read every thread[/b].

Finally, you're leaving out the IC aspect:
[quote]Should the Xinyan Republic fall into disorder or become unable to govern its people, the territory shall revert to Zargathian administration. This clause cannot be canceled even once full autonomy has been granted to the Xinyan Republic.[/quote]

Because of dotCom and Voodoo not telling Amyante, an OOC action, he was unable to enforce his IC treaty obligation. When Kitex said his DDB was alive because he was in an Artemis hospital, SMH didn't reply until the next day and then it was ruled that :"in the future rp'd security measures will need to be respected and followed by participants." [b]This applied even without notifying the other party.[/b] The same tenet applies to anything else that requires an IC reaction. This was not an internal matter and[b] directly involved the activation of a treaty by Amyante[/b] - something that Voodoo deliberately avoided by carrying out a quick thread and deliberately ignoring the only other directly involved party in an IC and OOC manner.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Sargun

[Kankou]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1307761534' post='2728979']
Yeah, that part seemed pretty cut and dry to me. I just thought this stemmed from Voo's desire to obtain the protectorate without incident. Since Voo hasn't really explained away that little detail, im prepared to wipe his troops if need be.[/quote]
GIven the deadlock between Cochin and Cent, seems like you're the swing vote. Go with your choice, EM.

PS: Given blitz nature of the overall land gifting, I'm not sure we're even allowing the original transfer to happen. Can Centurius explain how Xinyan is any different from the other land giftings that have caused so much outrage among players?

Edited June 11, 2011 by Kankou

[Triyun]

You can't just decide things for people that are IC decisions. FFS, Xinyan was a vassal state of the UFE with a Han Chinese population. If you are going to say who it makes sense to give it to, we're the obvious candidate . But frankly I'm not raising a fuss about this and maintaining neutrality because it is dotCom's decision to make, not mine yours or anyone else's. As soon as you try to overturn controversial IC decisions that cause conflict via GM means, you bleed the game dry of interest.

I think the best method for this to be resolved is through IC discussions between Zargathia, Novak, and along with others who have or they mutually feel have an interest in this area.

Let them resolve it, its not like either is a new player or a particularly weak one who can't be reasonably expected to handle these type of situations ICly.

[AironthFlamewing]

The issue is Triyun that in all likelihood the situation would have been handled amicably but Voodoo and Dotcom went behind Amyante's back and tried to pull these shenanigans. The few questions I have are as followed. 1. Who originally gave Dotcom the land? If it was Amy, then there are always doctrines of "If you fail, the land goes back to me." type deals like the one I'm under with Zoot. Then the land should revert to Amy no questions asked. 2. If the above is true, why then is everyone whining and trying to give Voodoo and Dotcom a free pass? OOC landgifting is prohibited and both Voodoo and Dotcom should have to answer for why they tried to deceive Amy and the community.

[Yawoo]

[quote name='Yawoo' timestamp='1307735197' post='2728754']
I would like to request that the GMs open an official discussion/poll/ritual relating to land conflicting processes. I think it is a mistake to go on precedent based on war and leave out diplomacy as a way to conflict the land. I very well could be in the minority in this opinion, but I feel we should at least have a community discussion on it.
[/quote]

The above has nothing to do specifically with Voodoo's land but rather a way to abolish the 'you need to DoW to conflict land' precedent. So I would appreciate it if a GM set's up a thread.

[Triyun]

I'm not disputing dotCom went behind Amy's back IC, but the doctrine is an IC doctrine it is not an OOC doctrine. That is my issue. It seems more and more we here are looking to have the GMs resolve IC disputes OOC so as to avoid any real sort of story IC. Stories in international diplomacy and conflict thrive on going behind peoples back and having a butting of heads. You resolve everything in the GM court it becomes slightly interactive Sim City.

Nobody tried to decieve the community. What is the deception? Lying that Voodoo had the land? It was not exactly a secret. They did a perfectly public RP, finished it, and others than RPed different things and it got buried. That doesn't strike me as deceptive, it strikes me as normal. Maybe I'm missing something here, and I'm not making any sort of moral judgement on the situation, but I really do not see how regardless of where you fall on this issue IC, why you would seek to invalidate it in OOC.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1307808281' post='2729240']
but I really do not see how regardless of where you fall on this issue IC, why you would seek to invalidate it in OOC.
[/quote]
The main issue is whether Novakian troops would be in former Xinyan. All the other points raised is connected to the main issue, since that decides the difference between invasion of Novakian territory and a simple conflict of who protects Xinyan.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1307808281' post='2729240']
I'm not disputing dotCom went behind Amy's back IC, but the doctrine is an IC doctrine it is not an OOC doctrine. That is my issue. It seems more and more we here are looking to have the GMs resolve IC disputes OOC so as to avoid any real sort of story IC. Stories in international diplomacy and conflict thrive on going behind peoples back and having a butting of heads. You resolve everything in the GM court it becomes slightly interactive Sim City.

Nobody tried to decieve the community. What is the deception? Lying that Voodoo had the land? It was not exactly a secret. They did a perfectly public RP, finished it, and others than RPed different things and it got buried. That doesn't strike me as deceptive, it strikes me as normal. Maybe I'm missing something here, and I'm not making any sort of moral judgement on the situation, but I really do not see how regardless of where you fall on this issue IC, why you would seek to invalidate it in OOC.
[/quote]

Didn't you hear Triyun? Nowadays you need to tell everyone who has an interest in a matter you are rp'ing something.

As for OOC gifting, a lot worse rp in the past has allowed mergers and land transfers. The only time GM action was taken against a land transfer was because the participants actively said the deal was fully ooc with no backing ic.

Finally the doctrine, doctrines are not automated systems. They are ic treaties which need to be activated icly, GMs do not have the authority to enforce an ic paper through ooc means.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Centurius

[Centurius]

[quote name='Yawoo' timestamp='1307808196' post='2729237']
The above has nothing to do specifically with Voodoo's land but rather a way to abolish the 'you need to DoW to conflict land' precedent. So I would appreciate it if a GM set's up a thread.
[/quote]

Go ahead and make the thread, you have my support for it.

[Triyun]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1307809525' post='2729248']
The main issue is whether Novakian troops would be in former Xinyan. All the other points raised is connected to the main issue, since that decides the difference between invasion of Novakian territory and a simple conflict of who protects Xinyan.
[/quote]

I agree that this is a legitimate issue for discussion here. I don't see though when you talk about whether its 'gifting' or not, that that is in fact a legitimate thing to discuss in the OOC forum instead of doing it IC.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1307810173' post='2729255']
I agree that this is a legitimate issue for discussion here. I don't see though when you talk about whether its 'gifting' or not, that that is in fact a legitimate thing to discuss in the OOC forum instead of doing it IC.
[/quote]
Not sure what you mean, but I'm using the gifting argument to show that

1. Voodoo would have needed to actually move troops into Xinyan, which never could have happened given that he never got permission to have his troops through Mongolia or Zargathia to Xinyan.

2. Voodoo should not be allowed to argue that he recruited people from Xinyan to establish a protection force, given that it's a controversial transfer and at the same time it's occurring in a highly disputed region, making RPing of citizens not a possible option.


I guess things got a bit winded.

[Triyun]

My view is that dotCom controls his own citizens, if he had his people support giving it to Voodoo, he should be allowed to RP that and thus support Novak in restoring order. Those citizens support don't automatically revert to anyone. You control your nation's citizens desires not anyone else.