Forbidden Love; The Inside Story

[Altheus]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1291273593' post='2527901']
CDT threatened our existence several times in the beginning.
[/quote]

No. I'm going to call you out on that because it's not very nice to tell untruths. CDT didn't want Europa dead. A number, (including myself) thought that the way Europa left UCN was badly handled and therefore told the remaining UCN members that they had our complete support if they wished to continue. To turn that around and make out that that was threatening Europa is ridiculous.

A number of Europa members were rude, insulting & demanded that UCN disbanded and stopped using their old flag as it was deemed to be the property of Europa. I didn't like you attitude, but in the interests of peace spent considerable effort trying to broker better relations between Europa & the remaing UCN members (as you perfectly well know Che) At all times our efforts were on calming the situation down and re-estabilising relations, despite much provocation frankly.

Interfering, yes, guilty as charged. Friends that we'd known for a long time had asked for our help. Threatening? No way. The only threatening going on was Europa telling UCN they had "no right to continue".

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[15:50] <DarkFox> still i was kinda hoping someone would try and pull that !@#$ not from Europa but say an alliance I dislike
[15:51] <DarkFox> cos soooo much NS would pile them sooo fast

He was referring to Europa's discussions about the UCN name (A name I came up with, by the way, after founding the very alliance in question). UCN was disbanded by all but two members. The vast majority wanted it disbanded, there were simply a few too inactive to keep up with the forums and learn what we were doing. One of the "reformers" actually left UCN 2.0 about two weeks into it's existence. Had you guys (CDT) actually listened to what we were trying to tell you instead of placing your fingers in your ears saying "NAH NAH NAH we don't care" you'd have learned about how UCN actually disbanded. You were all led to believe a trail of lies and didn't care to pursue the truth, or let it into your heads when it came a-knocking.

Friends you'd known for a long time? Get real. Members of Europa were the same members from UCN, and from CNE, that helped found CDT itself. Those that you'd "Known for a long time" were three people. 1, an alliance hopper that had left UCN 5 times, 2, an expelled UCN member that almost destroyed the alliance, and 3, an extremely inactive member with twelve posts on the UCN forums.

Lewis Cowper and Darkfox came in after the fact, and were not actually in UCN at the time of the disbandment.

[Kongo Jack IV]

[quote name='Altheus' timestamp='1291336854' post='2528430']
No. I'm going to call you out on that because it's not very nice to tell untruths. CDT didn't want Europa dead. A number, (including myself) thought that the way Europa left UCN was badly handled and therefore told the remaining UCN members that they had our complete support if they wished to continue. To turn that around and make out that that was threatening Europa is ridiculous.

[b]A number of Europa members were rude, insulting & demanded that UCN disbanded and stopped using their old flag as it was deemed to be the property of Europa. I didn't like you attitude, but in the interests of peace spent considerable effort trying to broker better relations between Europa & the remaing UCN members (as you perfectly well know Che) At all times our efforts were on calming the situation down and re-estabilising relations, despite much provocation frankly.
[/b]
Interfering, yes, guilty as charged. Friends that we'd known for a long time had asked for our help. Threatening? No way. The only threatening going on was Europa telling UCN they had "no right to continue".
[/quote]

That was the property of Vielwerth, a long time member. The flag, the forums, the codes, the badges, ECT... All belonged too him. Its his right to do with what he wishes.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Kongo Jack' timestamp='1291338124' post='2528457']
That was the property of Vielwerth, a long time member. The flag, the forums, the codes, the badges, ECT... All belonged too him. Its his right to do with what he wishes.
[/quote]

Pretty much this. Invention gives you the right to something. Let's say there were 20 members of UCN that had wanted to continue. Had they asked us for permission to use all that, we'd have gladly handed it over. As it was, we were threatened into giving up what we made, with war as the only other option.

It's funny that MK is accused of extortion these days, when the very alliances that oppose it (UPN, USN) are the same alliances that extorted our artistic creations out of us.

Just sayin'.

[Altheus]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1291337256' post='2528436']
[/quote]

You felt that you owned the rights to UCN and were therefore justified to prevent Darkfox, Erik & others from continuing it on. We felt that those that wished to continue an alliance on had the right to decide what it should look like. It's a pretty fundamental disagreement.
I don't know why you're trying to make out that I didn't know any of you, or Darkfox and others. That seems like a pretty odd arguement considering we'd been happily in the same bloc for over a year. #CDT_Private was a very busy thriving busy channel and you guys were nearly always there.

I felt at the time you thought we weren't listening. We were, it's just that we disagreed with what you were saying. Basically we didn't like the fact that Europa felt it could decide what Darkfox, Erik and others could or couldn't do and some of your members were quite threatening about it. We told Darkfox, Erik & co. that we'd help them any way we could.

Back to your original statement. CDT didn't threaten Europa and we had no interest in any conflict.

[Quote]It's funny that MK is accused of extortion these days, when the very alliances that oppose it (UPN, USN) are the same alliances that extorted our artistic creations out of us.[/quote]

That's just silly. UPN & USN didn't want any of your darn artistic creations. We just didn't want you to forcibly take them away from your old alliance. To extort something implies that we'd get anything out of the deal.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Altheus

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

Darkfox wasn't in UCN at the time. Erik was a probationary member.

[Altheus]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1291339845' post='2528503']
Darkfox wasn't in UCN at the time. Erik was a probationary member.
[/quote]

And that means they didn't get an opinion?

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Altheus' timestamp='1291340005' post='2528509']
And that means they didn't get an opinion?
[/quote]

Exactly what it means. We asked them both to stay in UCN prior to the disbandment to help us keep everything together. Erik left to found his own alliance, Fox left for TPE. They had no interest when it made a difference.

[Kongo Jack IV]

Its called a vote honey.

[Altheus]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1291340134' post='2528516']
Exactly what it means. We asked them both to stay in UCN prior to the disbandment to help us keep everything together. Erik left to found his own alliance, Fox left for TPE. They had no interest when it made a difference.
[/quote]

So you didn't like them for not helping previously. I can understand that, but it didn't give you the right to tell them they couldn't try later.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Altheus' timestamp='1291340277' post='2528522']
So you didn't like them for not helping previously. I can understand that, but it didn't give you the right to tell them they couldn't try later.
[/quote]

UCN was legally disbanded as per the charter. They violated the charter and stole our name and graphics. We never said they couldn't try again, we just said they couldn't steal our alliance name and graphics. They could have done whatever they wanted with the remaining stagnant membership.

[Varianz]

Congrats guys!

[Minister of Silly Walks]

[size="6"]IN BIG TEXT SO THE IDIOT TROLLS WILL UNDERSTAND

UCN WAS LEGALLY DISBANDED USING MY COMPLETELY LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL EMERGENCY POWERS AS THE SECRETARY GENERAL. IT IS ALL LAID OUT IN THE DISBANDMENT NOTICE I POSTED ON UCN'S FORUMS. IT WAS ALL LEGAL. NO VOTE WAS REQUIRED. I DON'T CARE IF PEOPLE SAY THAT MEMBERS SHOULD HAVE HAD A SAY. HAVING A VOTE WOULD HAVE BEEN ILLEGAL, AND I ACTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE UCN CHARTER AT ALL TIMES. [/size]


Anyone saying otherwise is sadly ignorant and ill informed and has an ax to grind with Europa for no particular reason.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

He mad.

He right.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1291335401' post='2528384']
Well, we were a whopping 300k NS at the time, so CDT could easily have hurt us. The thing that deterred them was the evil GOONS unofficially protecting us. They're so terrible, those GOONS.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Well, thank you for acknowledging that Invicta had nothing to do with your survival. We all know that Invicta hasn't the power to protect a thing. To say otherwise would be a lie. And also, thank you for mentioning that what ultimately kept Europa alive was CDT's cowardice and lack of spine. I had neglected to point that out there, but I was going to when I came back.[/color]

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1291345640' post='2528638']
[color="#0000FF"]Well, thank you for acknowledging that Invicta had nothing to do with your survival. We all know that Invicta hasn't the power to protect a thing. To say otherwise would be a lie. And also, thank you for mentioning that what ultimately kept Europa alive was CDT's cowardice and lack of spine. I had neglected to point that out there, but I was going to when I came back.[/color]
[/quote]

Our treaty with Invicta was a PIAT at the time. I cannot speak for how far they'd have gone to protect us, but please do not insult their loyalty.

As for CDT: lawl.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1291345709' post='2528640']
Our treaty with Invicta was a PIAT at the time. I cannot speak for how far they'd have gone to protect us, but please do not insult their loyalty.

As for CDT: lawl.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I think you're crediting your treaty with Invicta at the time with far more value than it is worth. As someone who has been allied to Invicta for a long time, I can say that they're a worthless alliance. They ought to merge with NPO in my opinion. But yes, I digress. The point is, Invicta didn't save your from the CDT threat (and I use the word threat loosely). GOONS did. So you may want to reconsider which teat to suckle at.[/color]

[Minister of Silly Walks]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1291346583' post='2528655']
[color="#0000FF"] As someone who has been allied to Invicta for a long time, I can say that they're a worthless alliance. [/color]
[/quote]

I'm glad you get along with your allies so well.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Emperador del Oeste

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Emperador del Oeste' timestamp='1291359569' post='2528860']
I'm glad you get along with your allies so well.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Yes, because as a non-government of the NSO everything I saw should be taken to heart. Good to know![/color]

[Minister of Silly Walks]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1291359639' post='2528861']
[color="#0000FF"]Yes, because as a non-government of the NSO everything I saw should be taken to heart. Good to know![/color]
[/quote]

Then I'm sure your gov people will be looking into why their members are flaming their allies in public.....

Public relations. Does you has them?

Edited December 3, 2010 by Emperador del Oeste

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1291346583' post='2528655']
[color="#0000FF"]I think you're crediting your treaty with Invicta at the time with far more value than it is worth. As someone who has been allied to Invicta for a long time, I can say that they're a worthless alliance. They ought to merge with NPO in my opinion. But yes, I digress. The point is, Invicta didn't save your from the CDT threat (and I use the word threat loosely). GOONS did. So you may want to reconsider which teat to suckle at.[/color]
[/quote]

I don't know what Invicta ever did to anger you so much, but it's sort of sad that you hate them so much.

[Haflinger]

Invicta wasn't involved in the CDT-Europa drama. We liked both Europa and the people who tried to save UCN. If a war had been started over alliance graphics, our opinion of the attacking party would have been greatly diminished, I suspect.

However it should also be noted that CDT, after we left, was very closely tied to the Polars. To suggest that they didn't have the necessary clout to roll Europa is pretty misguided.

[Altheus]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1291345640' post='2528638']
[color="#0000FF"]Well, thank you for acknowledging that Invicta had nothing to do with your survival. We all know that Invicta hasn't the power to protect a thing. To say otherwise would be a lie. And also, thank you for mentioning that what ultimately kept Europa alive was CDT's cowardice and lack of spine. I had neglected to point that out there, but I was going to when I came back.[/color]
[/quote]

You really are that idiotic.

I'll repeat again. CDT didn't threaten Europa and had no interest in harming them. It's sole interest was in preventing Europa from threatening UCN as UCN was a CDT member. CDT achieved that successfully.

[Vladisvok Destino]

[quote name='Emperador del Oeste' timestamp='1291343879' post='2528603']
Anyone saying otherwise is sadly ignorant and ill informed and has an ax to grind with Europa for no particular reason.
[/quote]

Funny considering it's Europa who have decided a treaty announcement needs to become a discussion of UCNs disbandment. Fairly obvious who it is here that has an axe to grind.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Vladisvok Destino

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Vladisvok Destino' timestamp='1291401335' post='2529205']
Funny considering it's Europa who have decided a treaty announcement needs to become a discussion of UCNs disbandment. Fairly obvious who it is here that has an axe to grind.
[/quote]

It actually led to that point via a jab at Europa, then a discussion about Europa being in CDT, the discussion then moved to being about Europa being led by many of the same people as UCN, making it the same as a CDT alliance, and naturally progressed. Nice try, though.

CDT did threaten Europa. The whole "Hand over the forums/flags or else" debacle was quite obviously a threat. The backpedaling on the part of CDT here is quite amazing, actually, considering myself and the other Europa founders were trolled on IRC by the very members of both USN and UPN in the beginning.