Order versus Anarchy

[Unko Kalaikz]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1284699935' post='2456396']
I didn't say all alliances suffered from the same amounts of conflict. According to Francoist philosophy (as espoused by Vladimir) Pacifica should have the least internal conflict in CN, but that's simply not the case. Again, to take my alliance as an example, ODN (which is a ~*dEmOcRaCy*~ and thus supposedly torn apart by internal conflict) is an extremely united alliance and our elections don't really cause much division between us at all.
[/quote]

I think it is difficult to measure the internal conflict of any alliance without being there to witness it. I have no idea how unified ODN is, and you really cannot know how much conflict is in NPO. But we can predict it based upon the structure of the alliance government, and democracies are popularity ballots, so the individuals most competent at winning elections tend to rise to power. Whereas in the Order individuals most adept at governing climb the ladder.

Democracies are a method to reduce internal conflict through a peaceful ballot system rather than war, but they are still less efficient at doing so than autocratic meritocracies such as the NPO are.

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284693536' post='2456290']
Sad and typical example of Dark Age philosophical discourse. Conjure up an ulterior motive and make that an excuse not to address the argument. Priceless
[/quote]

Okay before you further pat yourself on your back, you could have summed up your entire OP in one sentence. Next time please take out all the unnecessary fluff because people who aren't idiots can see through it and get to the meat of a post. Speaking of which, there isn't much tbh. You are essentially regulating "order and civilization" to one alliance, NPO. If this isn't arrogance and flawed to the extreme, I don't know what else.

First, to address the end goal of your "Order", reaching your full potential does not come about because of the lack of freedom. To truly attain it, you have to have members buying in to the system. For example, Umbrella and MK are more efficient than NPO yet value personal freedoms. Mechanics are what have NPO with a higher NS (the number of nations can overcome inefficiencies). Even with this, I have no doubt Umbrella and MK or even MK itself can defeat NPO in war. This itself contradicts the thinking that the way NPO runs things will lead you closer to your potential.

Second, your attempts to paint NPO as a savior is laughable. Although I suppose they failed spectacularly at eliminating the "lulz" element from the world seeing as you all are cowering from them.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Matthew Conrad

[Bavaricar]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284698398' post='2456369']
We must ask ourselves what is the purpose of an alliance? An alliance that thrives seeks to eliminate internal conflict and neutralize external conflict. Thus an alliance looks out for its, and its members self interests. There is nothing wrong with that.

But on the other hand, we can look at the effects of the opposite philosophies the two alliances hold on the world. On the one hand, Pacifican Francoist ideology has enriched intellectual debate and discussion, provided safety to countless red nations, stabilized world politics during the Age of Order, purged "lulz" and immature actors from the world stage, and provided the greatest world economy we have ever known.

Whereas Anarchist philosophy, which many of our esteemed colleagues espouse, has brought us the armageddon war ushered in an age of darkness, a great depression of nation strength and active nations, a return of the lulz and rejection of reasoned argument, political instability, decreased average intelligence per debate, a cultural decline and the weakening of the safety of innocent red nations simply to score shots against NPO.
[/quote]

Alliances come in many forms. You are right that most alliances today care only about guarding against or even eliminating threats to their security. We also must allow that some alliances are formed not exclusively for member economic or military security at all, but for shared principles that transcend short-term military or economic security considerations. What your alliance and most others cannot seem to comprehend or accept is any consideration of altruism, outside of strictly realpolitik considerations.

As for the alternatives as you framed them, this is a compelling response and, yes, if these things were as you represented them, I would begrudgingly prefer your Order over this Anarchy. However, many of the observations you share here are inaccurate representations. Perhaps you simply lost me when you included "moralism" alongside your opening salvo on [i]barbarism, terrorism and anarchy[/i]. As I said earlier, one of those things is not like the others.

Keep on keeping on. You've come far. Eventually I hope you'll see the full light.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284700420' post='2456408']
I think it is difficult to measure the internal conflict of any alliance without being there to witness it. I have no idea how unified ODN is, and you really cannot know how much conflict is in NPO. But we can predict it based upon the structure of the alliance government, and democracies are popularity ballots, so the individuals most competent at winning elections tend to rise to power. Whereas in the Order individuals most adept at governing climb the ladder.
[/quote]

Competent by what measure? Clearly the elected leaders of ODN are considered fit to lead by the majority of the alliance.

[Unko Kalaikz]

[quote name='Bavaricar' timestamp='1284700662' post='2456414']
Alliances come in many forms. You are right that most alliances today care only about guarding against or even eliminating threats to their security. We also must allow that some alliances are formed not exclusively for member economic or military security at all, but for shared principles that transcend short-term military or economic security considerations. What your alliance and most others cannot seem to comprehend or accept is any consideration of altruism, outside of strictly realpolitik considerations.

As for the alternatives as you framed them, this is a compelling response and, yes, if these things were as you represented them, I would begrudgingly prefer your Order over this Anarchy. However, many of the observations you share here are inaccurate representations. Perhaps you simply lost me when you included "moralism" alongside your opening salvo on [i]barbarism, terrorism and anarchy[/i]. As I said earlier, one of those things is not like the others.

Keep on keeping on. You've come far. Eventually I hope you'll see the full light.
[/quote]

The original purpose of an alliance is growth and protection. Running an alliance like a club simply interferes with that purpose and the statistics are there to demonstrate that.

I apologize, but as a former Voxian irrational moralism was a huge problem philosophically for our cause. Perhaps I need to find better terminology.

[Bavaricar]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284700990' post='2456420']
The original purpose of an alliance is growth and protection. Running an alliance like a club simply interferes with that purpose and the statistics are there to demonstrate that.

I apologize, but as a former Voxian irrational moralism was a huge problem philosophically for our cause. Perhaps I need to find better terminology.
[/quote]

Perhaps part of your problem is you cannot say the word moralism without adding an adjective like [i]illogical [/i]or [i]irrational[/i].

[Unko Kalaikz]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' timestamp='1284700489' post='2456410']
Okay before you further pat yourself on your back, you could have summed up your entire OP in one sentence. Next time please take out all the unnecessary fluff because people who aren't idiots can see through it and get to the meat of a post. Speaking of which, there isn't much tbh. You are essentially regulating "order and civilization" to one alliance, NPO. If this isn't arrogance and flawed to the extreme, I don't know what else.[/quote]

Well do me a favor and summarize it as one sentence for me then? The NPO is a prime example of order and civilization, and if I understand correct certain founding MK members were once NPO officials themselves and simply carried over a portion of Pacifican culture without fully comprehending what actually makes the Order so

[quote]First, to address the end goal of your "Order", reaching your full potential does not come about because of the lack of freedom. To truly attain it, you have to have members buying in to the system. For example, Umbrella and MK are more efficient than NPO yet value personal freedoms. Mechanics are what have NPO with a higher NS (the number of nations can overcome inefficiencies). Even with this, I have no doubt Umbrella and MK or even MK itself can defeat NPO in war. This itself contradicts the thinking that the way NPO runs things will lead you closer to your potential.[/quote]

Your self-serving analysis of Pacifican and Shroom military might leaves much to be desired. The article is not addressing nuclear weapons or warchests, but civilization and anarchy. This paragraph does much to illustrate the differences between our alliances; Pacifica is certainly a military force to be reckoned with but it is hardly our focus, which is why Pacifica prevails.

[quote]Second, your attempts to paint NPO as a savior is laughable. Although I suppose they failed spectacularly at eliminating the "lulz" element from the world seeing as you all are cowering from them.
[/quote]

Nice propaganda, but if we are cowering from lulz why am I attacking it?

[DictatatorDan]

[quote]Throughout history our world has been troubled by a celebration of barbarism, the romanticization of terrorism, anarchy and illogical moralism. I myself in my younger days was a firebrand seeking "freedom" and liberation from the grasp of the "global despots." Yet with age and experience I have come to see the truth of the matter, and wisdom has graced me, replacing my impetuous ambitions and ill-conceived notions of counter-revolutionary antics. It is some solace to me that a few other former terrorists and rabble-rousers have also matured from the days of our youth, although my guilt will ever lie upon me.[/quote] [color="#FF0000"]Your guilt and delusions are a sign of your own weakness, and a continued testament to your "illogical moralism". Speaking in purely abstract form means this is the literary equivalent of diarrhea, and proof that your moral proselytizing has no factual base to stand on.[/color]

[quote]I first began to question devotion to anarchism nearing the latter days of the Vox Populi uprising. After some time the initial rush that comes from riotous violence and a cheeky disrespect for the authorities began to fade, and as I looked about me I began to wonder at the intentions of our "leadership" such as it was. Many were guilty of human rights abuses and war crimes in the past, poor governance, and emotionally charged reasoning and actions. As a developing Francoist I attempted to insert some level of reason and higher purpose, but to no avail, and with a sinking heart I began to realize that the cause I had dedicated so much towards might be [i]wrong.[/i][/quote] [color="#FF0000"]Vox Populi was not a purely moralist endeavor. It was revanchalism hidden behind a cloak of moralism. It's one goal was to strike back at it's enemies for the wrongs, perceived or genuine, that were done to them. In that role, it was greatly successful by going way beyond the bounds of normal warfare.[/color]


[quote]Still, I held firm to my ideals. [i]Global Despotism is the problem,[/i] I reasoned to myself, [i]the Hegemony is a tool of oppression.[/i] But despite publicly never conceding to Order heavyweights like Vladimir and Cortath, I was wavering. [i]Perhaps evil schemes and userite oppression did not actually maintain the power of the hegemony. Perhaps,[/i] a small thought rang in my mind, [i]Pacifica is a force for good in the world.[/i][/quote] [color="#FF0000"]You're argument fails here too, because of a complete lack of evidence. NPO and the Hegemony did not rule by war, but rather by peace. A peace that was maintained by blatant intimidation. To borrow a turn of phrase from Pacifican propaganda; To be against the Orders was the definition of being wrong.[/color]

[quote]And then another thought pierced my mind. A thought that I was blaming the forces of Order for my own failings, my own shortcomings, and my subsequent poor decisions in selecting my alliances, and governing them. Projecting the Order as the enemy, when in reality, I was indeed my own worst enemy. And it was at that time I began to realize what freedom truly is. [/quote]

[quote][i]Freedom,[/i] I was beginning to learn, [i]is not the same as anarchy. Anarchy is the state of nature, a state of conflict in which national rulers may do as they please, to the detriment of their nations, and other nations. Freedom is liberation from this anarchy, the opportunity to develop materially, intellectually and spiritually, to escape the state of nature and reach one's full potential.[/i][/quote] [color="#FF0000"]What your are describing here is not in any way freedom. You are describing Order and Law. Order may liberate one from anarchy, but imposes limits on liberty and confines it. Whether or not this is to good result is in the eye of the beholder.[/color]

[quote]Freedom is civilization, Anarchy is barbarism. This revolutionary concept reeled in my mind, and I as I began to perceive wisdom I left behind the folly of Vox and all those who sought anarchy on a global scale.[/quote]

[quote]And the day came when the machinations of Vox Populi and other world actors finally came into fruition, the fall of civilization through treachery and deceit, and defeat of the Order, and the beginning of the dark ages. [/quote] [color="#FF0000"]Treachery and deceit were some of the primary political tools of the Hegemony, not a unique machination within the anti-Hegemony movement. The Hegemony failed by and large, because it's own methods were turned against it, and it's inability to adapt to the changing situation[/color]

[quote]We have seen the return of barbarism and anarchy to the world. We witness the ravaging of nations, the bastion that was the red team assailed by cruel and pitiless pillagers, the return of vanquished enemies of world peace to seats of power. How many untold millions have perished in the Armageddon War and after? The untold suffering of nations, and a world economy that has not recovered and may never reach the levels of prosperity we witnessed in the Age of Order.[/quote][color="#FF0000"] We have also witnessed the end of wide-spread PZI and EZI policies that force people from the game, the end of perpetual warfare, and the creation of a more straight foreword cyberverse. We now have the liberty to speak frankly and freely about our enemies without fear of retaliation.[/color]

[quote]And yet, to the surprise of all, we witness a dim but glowing lamp of hope. The Order and other alliances like it is growing at an unprecedented rate; the Anarchists do not understand and gnash their teeth in frenzied hate; but they are blind, unlike the peoples of peace, the keepers of Order, the agents of civilization and decency and respect and all worthy things, the light of Francoism, the keepers of the flame of freedom and Franco's star, angels of hope and charity in today's darkened world. [/quote][color="#FF0000"]You are simply beating your gums and swooning over your own delusions. [/color]

[quote]Was the Order always right? Hardly, none, not one, ever is. But perhaps in this age of uncertainty we can look back with hope that times will be ordered again, and that reason will prevail over the lulz and abominable lusts that shape our chaotic world today.[/quote][color="#FF0000"]Power is never a means to an end, rather that it is the end itself. If the Hegemony age was, as you would put it, a golden age, than why did it end? The answer is a simple one, that no amount of revisionism can drowned out. It was not a golden age. It was not an age of order. It was not revered. It was detested and reviled.

The world did not peacefully coalesce into what it has became today, it was forged in the violent upheaval against Pacifica's abuse of power.[/color]

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284701482' post='2456425']
[...]and if I understand correct certain founding MK members were once NPO officials themselves and simply carried over a portion of Pacifican culture without fully comprehending what actually makes the Order so
[/quote]

You do not understand correctly. At all.

Edited September 17, 2010 by SirWilliam

[Unko Kalaikz]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1284700959' post='2456419']
Competent by what measure? Clearly the elected leaders of ODN are considered fit to lead by the majority of the alliance.
[/quote]

As I said they are competent at winning elections.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284701805' post='2456429']
As I said they are competent at winning elections.
[/quote]

Objectively speaking, you cannot know when someone is adept at governing or not. Therefore you have two alternatives. Either a majority decides whether someone is adept, or a minority decides it. Democracy or dictatorship. And OsRavan and the rest of ODN's leadership have the full support of our membership (as demonstrated in our recent elections).... you have no reference point with which to demonstrate that your view on whether or not someone is adept at leadership is legitimate.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Kalasin

[Unko Kalaikz]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1284701521' post='2456426']
[color="#FF0000"]Your guilt and delusions are a sign of your own weakness, and a continued testament to your "illogical moralism". Speaking in purely abstract form means this is the literary equivalent of diarrhea, and proof that your moral proselytizing has no factual base to stand on.[/color][/quote]

If this is diarrhea I'm going to !@#$ all day

[quote][color="#FF0000"]Vox Populi was not a purely moralist endeavor. It was revanchalism hidden behind a cloak of moralism. It's one goal was to strike back at it's enemies for the wrongs, perceived or genuine, that were done to them. In that role, it was greatly successful by going way beyond the bounds of normal warfare.[/color][/quote]

Why are you telling me what I already know about something I was an instrumental part of?

[quote][color="#FF0000"]You're argument fails here too, because of a complete lack of evidence. NPO and the Hegemony did not rule by war, but rather by peace. A peace that was maintained by blatant intimidation. To borrow a turn of phrase from Pacifican propaganda; To be against the Orders was the definition of being wrong.[/color][/quote]

Why are you setting up straw arguments? I did not say NPO ruled through war.

[quote][color="#FF0000"]What your are describing here is not in any way freedom. You are describing Order and Law. Order may liberate one from anarchy, but imposes limits on liberty and confines it. Whether or not this is to good result is in the eye of the beholder.[/color][/quote]

It is not a subjective measure for me, I am looking at it through a materialist perspective.

[quote][color="#FF0000"]Treachery and deceit were some of the primary political tools of the Hegemony, not a unique machination within the anti-Hegemony movement. The Hegemony failed by and large, because it's own methods were turned against it, and it's inability to adapt to the changing situation[/color]

[quote][color="#FF0000"] We have also witnessed the end of wide-spread PZI and EZI policies that force people from the game, the end of perpetual warfare, and the creation of a more straight foreword cyberverse. We now have the liberty to speak frankly and freely about our enemies without fear of retaliation.[/color][/quote]

The Hegemony fell because of decay and arrogance, two weaknesses that it's enemies exploited. Also, I was personally EZI listed by Moo himself and I dont remember leaving the game

[quote][color="#FF0000"]You are simply beating your gums and swooning over your own delusions. [/color]

[color="#FF0000"]Power is never a means to an end, rather that it is the end itself. If the Hegemony age was, as you would put it, a golden age, than why did it end? The answer is a simple one, that no amount of revisionism can drowned out. It was not a golden age. It was not an age of order. It was not revered. It was detested and reviled. [/quote]

Detested and reviled by those who were not in power, certainly.
[/quote]

[Unko Kalaikz]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1284702165' post='2456430']
Objectively speaking, you cannot know when someone is adept at governing or not. Therefore you have two alternatives. Either a majority decides whether someone is adept, or a minority decides it. Democracy or dictatorship. And OsRavan and the rest of ODN's leadership have the full support of our membership (as demonstrated in our recent elections).... you have no reference point with which to demonstrate that your view on whether or not someone is adept at leadership is legitimate.
[/quote]

I did not say ODN elected officials are bad at governing, merely that they are selected according to how good they are at winning votes. Personally I feel a select elite that is highly experienced and familiar with the important topics of the day will typically make better policy decisions than a wider range of amateur or not-so-experienced people will, and furthermore there will be less conflict because there are less actors. In our case there is one actor, Emperor Cortath, supported by IOs and staff, so final decisions are absolute and free of conflict.

And despite (or because of) our autocratic nature our Emperor also enjoys full membership support so you cannot use that as a point of reference.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284702980' post='2456434']
I did not say ODN elected officials are bad at governing, merely that they are selected according to how good they are at winning votes. Personally I feel a select elite that is highly experienced and familiar with the important topics of the day will typically make better policy decisions than a wider range of amateur or not-so-experienced people will, and furthermore there will be less conflict because there are less actors. In our case there is one actor, Emperor Cortath, supported by IOs and staff, so final decisions are absolute and free of conflict.

And despite (or because of) our autocratic nature our Emperor also enjoys full membership support so you cannot use that as a point of reference.
[/quote]

I think you misunderstand me- I'm not claiming that ODN's leadership is more competent than that of Pacifica (or at least, that's not my point.) I'm simply challenging the use of the word "competence", or "adept", or whatever variation you want to use. ODN's membership think that our leadership are fit to lead, and what reference point do you have to claim otherwise?

[Unko Kalaikz]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1284703321' post='2456437']
I think you misunderstand me- I'm not claiming that ODN's leadership is more competent than that of Pacifica (or at least, that's not my point.) I'm simply challenging the use of the word "competence", or "adept", or whatever variation you want to use. ODN's membership think that our leadership are fit to lead, and what reference point do you have to claim otherwise?
[/quote]

I don't and I have not claimed that they are unfit to lead. But there can be a difference between the subjective views of the membership and the material reality of things.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284703488' post='2456438']
I don't and I have not claimed that they are unfit to lead.
[/quote]

Yes I get that. I'm not saying you did.

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284703488' post='2456438']
But there can be a difference between the subjective views of the membership and the material reality of things.
[/quote]

And here we come close to what I'm trying to get at! The views of the membership are indeed subjective. But how can you know the material reality of things any better than anyone else, including our membership? The answer is, you cannot, and thus whether or not the leadership of democratic alliances is adept becomes subjective.

[Unko Kalaikz]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1284703871' post='2456443']And here we come close to what I'm trying to get at! The views of the membership are indeed subjective. But how can you know the material reality of things any better than anyone else, including our membership? The answer is, you cannot, and thus whether or not the leadership of democratic alliances is adept becomes subjective.
[/quote]

Simply by studying concrete reality; statistics, treaties, military power, morale, quality of leadership... you can have opinions on these things but they in themselves are factual and measurable things. Measurable in a materialist sense. "how much NS does the alliance have," "how many nuclear weapons," "are members deserting," "has the leadership reduced internal conflict and neutralized external conflict?"

These are all materialist objective ways of analyzing the world we live in, and a central part of Francoist philosophy. [url="http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/An_Introduction_to_Francoism"]You are of course welcome to study it[/url] and come to your own conclusion.


Pardon me, but for the rest of the night I must attend to matters of state. Good night.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Unko Kalaikz

[Kalasin]

I have no interest in reading an introduction to Francoism whatsoever.

I think I'll bow out here. Usually I wouldn't turn down the opportunity for a debate, [ooc] but I'm unwell in real life, and it's difficult to think with a pounding headache. [/ooc]

[Sal Paradise]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284687514' post='2456194']
Could you define that for us?
[/quote]

Did you not define it yourself in the OP? "Freedom is civilization." Bat Country has experienced almost uninterrupted prosperity as a nation since its founding. Improvements are continually being built, including but not limited to banks, churches, clinics and a hospital, missile defenses, stadia, schools and two universities, shipyards, dockyards, etc. In addition to this, we have also built several structures and institutions that can only be described as [i]wonders[/i]. A great temple, a stock market, social security, an interstate system, to name only a few. Our nation is well-regarded in the world, holding such positions as Postmaster General of the Greenland Republic, Director of Nuclear Proliferation in the Green Protection Agency, and Prince Consort of the Order of the Black Rose. We are so admired by one nation in particular, that it even permitted us to build an air force base on its soil.

Indeed, Bat Country civilization is currently experiencing a veritable golden age, and showing no signs of slowing down.

But don't take my word for it, listen to these reviews:

[quote]"Its technology is first rate and its citizens marvel at the astonishing advancements within their nation."[/quote]

[quote]"A very solid economy"[/quote]

[quote][img]http://www.cybernations.net/images/lovetoo.gif[/img][/quote]

[iamthey]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1284693342' post='2456288']
Perhaps the whole point is to not buy into the intellectual masturbation that is writing unnecessarily long and verbose posts about how smart one is? Responding to it on its own terms would involve buying into it regardless of whether I'm agreeing with it or not.
[/quote]

'Am I the only one who gets a bit nauseated when people make these attempts to discuss how ~*~seasoned and philosophical~*~ they are?'

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1284700959' post='2456419']
Competent by what measure? Clearly the elected leaders of ODN are considered fit to lead by the majority of the alliance.
[/quote]

Hrm, indeed you may be onto something there. Despite what the ODN haters have to say, the leadership at ODN has always been exceedingly competent at maintaining its high pixel retention rate. There are few wars where ODN has been on the wrong side, and the network has done an excellent job at skirting between the various shifting poles, sugaring up to one group then departing for another. While claims to integrity, reliability and character on the part of ODN may be suspect, no one can ever say that the great people over there were negligent in their duty to shelter their members from external threats.

Edited September 17, 2010 by iamthey

[Voytek]

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1284707383' post='2456462']
'Am I the only one who gets a bit nauseated when people make these attempts to discuss how ~*~seasoned and philosophical~*~ they are?'
[/quote]
No, I do too.

[Kalasin]

The thing is, this contributes nothing to Francoist thought, as it's already been said before by Vladimir. I don't dislike the attempt at a philosophy nearly so much as the [i]repetitiveness[/i]. Philosophies are actually interesting and [ooc] add depth to a game which Admin describes as a political simulator. [/ooc]

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1284693342' post='2456288']
Perhaps the whole point is to not buy into the intellectual masturbation that is writing unnecessarily long and verbose posts about how smart one is? Responding to it on its own terms would involve buying into it regardless of whether I'm agreeing with it or not.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure that wasn't the message he was trying to convey. Despite that someone strolls by and before even reading the first paragraph you see the " New Pacific Order" alliance affiliation and the jack boot pip and say to yourself "ARRRGH where's my flamethrower!!!" And then proceed to cherry pick the easiest sentence to blow out of proportion.

If someone from MK or one of your close allies posted something like this you would be singing a completley different tune right now.

How the hell did this become about ODN?

Edited September 17, 2010 by BlkAK47_002

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1284748410' post='2456712']
If someone from MK or one of your close allies posted something like this you would be singing a completley different tune right now.
[/quote]

MK and its allies generally don't post Francoist pieces.

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1284749025' post='2456720']
MK and its allies generally don't post Francoist pieces.
[/quote]
lol, Ok smart guy

I left myself open for a funny but You know exactly what I mean

Edited September 17, 2010 by BlkAK47_002