The New Grämlins

[shilo]

[quote name='scutterbug' date='14 April 2010 - 12:07 PM' timestamp='1271239648' post='2259918']
Sorry i didnt know DAWN spoke for IRON now.
[/quote]
lol
Nice attempt to dodge the issue at hand...

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='nutkase' date='14 April 2010 - 06:07 AM' timestamp='1271239655' post='2259919']
When did MHA say we will only declare if its someone we don't like?
When has sitting in the sidelines become opportunistic?
When have we said we would more likely become involved if its only a small alliance rather then a large Coalition?

A lot of hypothetical scenario's in that text of yours.
[/quote]
I said For example, meaning I was throwing up hypothetical scenarios on how it could be viewed if you keep the treaty up to the point where you're highly unlikely to honor it. It will be negatively viewed whatever you do if you're unclear on this until someone is attacking and you would normally need to activate the treaty.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Methrage

[Baden-Württemberg]

[quote name='scutterbug' date='14 April 2010 - 11:57 AM' timestamp='1271239021' post='2259911']
It can quite clearly be seen here you started with the cheap shots so please dont try that one. Or need i quote?


"And the cancellation on NPO during Karma, and the cancellation on TOP during the last war. I must add though, I can't judge whether they canceled it because there was no friendship left(I'd respect that), or whether they canceled it because they were opportunistic. Although some of the posts of their actions and posts make me believe it's the second one."

Something you clearly have no clue about regarding MHA/TOP due to the fact you aint even a member of either. Dont blame me when i respond in kind.

As for being a gramlin puppet, doubtful at best. Think the sheer amount of dislike some of us in MHA are showing over this makes it very clear we are far from being puppets. Even told Ram personally would it not be for my loyalty to MHA i would personally declare on him now and help IRON.
[/quote]

So what makes us a TOP puppet? (I mean, according your argumentation, you aren't even allowed to make such a claim, which is basically why I am asking)

You try to claim the morale highground by saying that I cannot judge MHA's actions and their treaty cancellations because I am not in MHA, yet you make claims about TSO? That's hypocrisy, Mr. Government Adviser.
That said, you completely ignore the points where I say that I indeed don't know MHA's internal workings, and that I can only judge from what I see on these Forums. I am not saying I am Sam the master who knows everything and MHA is opportunistic, I am saying I am Sam the observer, and MHA might look opportunistic to some (including me) because of actions A, B and C (we don't need to point them out again), unless they prove me wrong. Frankly, I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong, by you.


Although it's a childish discussion, since our definition of "poor shot" might differ, but no, I simply think that you are upset because you know you are wrong. Of course an eagerly aggressive style of posting will make you look right.

[scutterbug]

[quote name='shilo' date='14 April 2010 - 11:10 AM' timestamp='1271239826' post='2259922']
lol
Nice attempt to dodge the issue at hand...
[/quote]


Nope not at all, all my points have mentioned IRON not a single bleep about DAWN. So please come back with something more relevant. All you specified in your post was the term us. That to me means you are talking about yourselves, aka DAWN. Which frankly im not interested in a 12 man oppurtunistic alliance who rides into a war without even posting a DoW.

Edited April 14, 2010 by scutterbug

[Baden-Württemberg]

[quote name='scutterbug' date='14 April 2010 - 12:12 PM' timestamp='1271239942' post='2259925']
Nope not at all, all my points have mentioned IRON not a single bleep about DAWN. So please come back with something more relevant. All you specified in your post was the term us. That to me means you are talking about yourselves, aka DAWN. Which frankly im not interested in a 12 man oppurtunistic alliance who rides into a war without even posting a DoW.
[/quote]

Since he is asking the question it [b]is [/b]relevant for him. I don't think that you can choose for him what's relevant and what's not. And since it is obviously not relevant for you, you might as well answer.

[nutkase]

[quote name='shilo' date='14 April 2010 - 06:05 PM' timestamp='1271239506' post='2259917']
No offense, but someone who has Cormalek in his ranks, the master of reading between the lines, you should check that one more time:
obviously no one cares to ignite this war beyond gRAMlins, but surely no one will mind getting more manpower onto the field to beat them back to their senses sooner. Right now what's stopping this is MHA threatening if we get help they will escalate it.

So, us getting help is still very much appreciated, we still are completely outmatched in the top ranks, and without support have a very long battle ahead of us until we can deliver the hurt to the last remaining gRAMlin. What we don't want is that those that come to our help then get beatdown by MHA and a coalition of their friends. We wouldn't do that to our friends.
[/quote]

So you saying MHA is stopping this war from escalating by not allowing IRON allies to help which in turn is escalating it anyway if they did?

but if you get in some extra friends to extra alliances to hit GRE, you don't want MHA joining in?

Double standards much

[scutterbug]

[quote name='Baden-Württemberg' date='14 April 2010 - 11:15 AM' timestamp='1271240104' post='2259926']
Since he is asking the question it [b]is [/b]relevant for him. I don't think that you can choose for him what's relevant and what's not. And since it is obviously not relevant for you, you might as well answer.
[/quote]

How about this then?

I trust IRON will provide its good allies DAWN the support its asking for in the top tier. But oh wait should they do that they lose their ability to pay the reps they have already agreed to once Ramlins leave the field.

I also trust IRON to keep their micros in check and trust their word that things wont escalate when they say they won't therefore we do nothing.

[nutkase]

[quote name='Baden-Württemberg' date='14 April 2010 - 06:12 PM' timestamp='1271239937' post='2259924']
So what makes us a TOP puppet? (I mean, according your argumentation, you aren't even allowed to make such a claim, which is basically why I am asking)

You try to claim the morale highground by saying that I cannot judge MHA's actions and their treaty cancellations because I am not in MHA, yet you make claims about TSO? That's hypocrisy, Mr. Government Adviser.

[/quote]

So what makes us a GRE puppet? as too your claims.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='scutterbug' date='14 April 2010 - 06:18 AM' timestamp='1271240287' post='2259929']
How about this then?

I trust IRON will provide its good allies DAWN the support its asking for in the top tier. But oh wait should they do that they lose their ability to pay the reps they have already agreed to once Ramlins leave the field.

I also trust IRON to keep their micros in check and trust their word that things wont escalate when they say they won't therefore we do nothing.
[/quote]
So its an agreement with you guys keeping IRON from bringing anyone in and you guys don't know what you would do if something out of IRON's control happened. Now it seems more clear.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Methrage

[nutkase]

[quote name='Methrage' date='14 April 2010 - 06:21 PM' timestamp='1271240463' post='2259931']
So its an agreement with you guys keeping IRON from bringing anyone in and you guys don't know what you would do if something out of IRON's control happened. Now it seems more clear.
[/quote]

ahaha what?, your saying a IRON ally may declare without approval of IRON?

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='nutkase' date='14 April 2010 - 06:24 AM' timestamp='1271240667' post='2259932']
ahaha what?, your saying a IRON ally may declare without approval of IRON?
[/quote]
I didn't have approval and wasn't an ally, at this point even those who aren't allied to IRON might consider it without approval.

[scutterbug]

[quote name='Methrage' date='14 April 2010 - 11:26 AM' timestamp='1271240751' post='2259933']
I didn't have approval and wasn't an ally, at this point even those who aren't allied to IRON might consider it without approval.
[/quote]

Makes you a bandwagoner then?

Are you even seriously trying to argue that. Nobody really gives a monkeys about a one person crusade for "justice"

[Baden-Württemberg]

[quote name='nutkase' date='14 April 2010 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1271240369' post='2259930']
So what makes us a GRE puppet? as too your claims.
[/quote]

Well, the puppet discussion was started by scutter, and I think it's a question of definitions.

He claimed that we are TOP's puppet. We are close friends to Paradoxia, they have helped us a lot in the past, we have done the same for them. We have a lot of communication with each other, they are in our private channel, we are in their war channel, they receive a weekly issue of our newspaper etc. If that's his definition of being TOP's puppet, then we are TOP's puppet.

I know for a fact, that MHA and Grämlins are (or were) very close friends. I am sure you also have shared channels, a lot of communication etc. So according to scutter's definition, I think you won't deny that you are their puppet either.

But then again, to the statement quoted, in order to give you a full explanation of what I meant: I am rather TOP's puppet, because I receive honest answers from TOP, and they can expect honesty from us. If we don't like something, they respect that, and try to find a pleasing solutions for all parties if possible.

I mean many Members dislike Grämlins actions, yet Grämlins obviously don't give a damn what you think, otherwise they'd have peaced out already. The balls in their cord, the aces in their hands. They can end this. If they had just a little respect for MHA they'd have done that days ago. And that is why I am rather TOP's puppet than Grämlins.

[shilo]

[quote name='nutkase' date='14 April 2010 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1271240223' post='2259928']
So you saying MHA is stopping this war from escalating by not allowing IRON allies to help which in turn is escalating it anyway if they did?

but if you get in some extra friends to extra alliances to hit GRE, you don't want MHA joining in?

Double standards much
[/quote]
Yes, and no.
Yes, it would be appreciated if more friends could enter to help beat some sense into gRAMlins, and no those are not double standards, as we didn't lose our minds, only gRAMlins did, and they need to be stopped.

Also thank you for understanding my post

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='scutterbug' date='14 April 2010 - 06:29 AM' timestamp='1271240935' post='2259935']
Makes you a bandwagoner then?

Are you even seriously trying to argue that. Nobody really gives a monkeys about a one person crusade for "justice"
[/quote]
I've seen people from other alliances who even fought on your side of the war state they're considering it or want to more each day, etc. Not just myself, most active forum posters seem to be siding with IRON here and taking an anti-Gremlin stance.

Edit: Even your own sig is trying to get alliances not to tech deal with them which I'm sure they'd consider an aggressive act if it wasn't for all their other problems, or they do consider that hostile and is they don't care what MHA thinks.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Methrage

[nutkase]

[quote name='Baden-Württemberg' date='14 April 2010 - 06:29 PM' timestamp='1271240937' post='2259936']
Well, the puppet discussion was started by scutter, and I think it's a question of definitions.

He claimed that we are TOP's puppet. We are close friends to Paradoxia, they have helped us a lot in the past, we have done the same for them. We have a lot of communication with each other, they are in our private channel, we are in their war channel, they receive a weekly issue of our newspaper etc. If that's his definition of being TOP's puppet, then we are TOP's puppet.

I know for a fact, that MHA and Grämlins are (or were) very close friends. I am sure you also have shared channels, a lot of communication etc. So according to scutter's definition, I think you won't deny that you are their puppet either.

But then again, to the statement quoted, in order to give you a full explanation of what I meant: I am rather TOP's puppet, because I receive honest answers from TOP, and they can expect honesty from us. If we don't like something, they respect that, and try to find a pleasing solutions for all parties if possible.

I mean many Members dislike Grämlins actions, yet Grämlins obviously don't give a damn what you think, otherwise they'd have peaced out already. The balls in their cord, the aces in their hands. They can end this. If they had just a little respect for MHA they'd have done that days ago. And that is why I am rather TOP's puppet than Grämlins.
[/quote]

Well we don't have any GRE members in our private channels nor war channels. Our newspaper goes to the OWF, so we must be then OWF puppet then

We have multiple shared channels with different alliances.

We also receive honest answers from GRE as do GRE get honest ones from us, the difference is we do not force our view on them for they are sovereign. We can make a suggestion, it is there choice to use it or not.

EDIT: Spelling FAIL

Edited April 14, 2010 by nutkase

[scutterbug]

[quote name='Methrage' date='14 April 2010 - 11:31 AM' timestamp='1271241091' post='2259939']
I've seen people from other alliances who even fought on your side of the war state they're considering it or want to more each day, etc. Not just myself, most active forum posters seem to be siding with IRON here and taking an anti-Gremlin stance.
[/quote]

Then Ramirus will start to wonder where all his friends have gone after treating them like worthless idiots in the negotiations and what not eh? Like i said he will reap what he sows should anything come to pass of it. Fairly certain given the choice majority of MHA would let Ramlins get rolled quite happily currently.

Edit:

Ramirus knows i have a problem with him i even publically state it, hes just a coward and would rather talk trash about me behind my back. Thats his problem not mine.

Edited April 14, 2010 by scutterbug

[Baden-Württemberg]

[quote name='nutkase' date='14 April 2010 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1271241316' post='2259940']
Well we don't have any GRE members in our private channels nor war channels. Our newspaper goes to the OWF, so we must be then OWF puppet then

We have multiple shared channels with different alliances.

We also receive honest answers from GRE as do GRE get honest ones from us, the difference is we do not force our view on them for they are sovereign. We can make a suggestion, it is there choice to use it or not.

EDIT: Spelling FAIL
[/quote]

You missed the point.

Of course, we cannot violate TOP's sovereignty and they cannot violate ours. Of course your means of communication might be different from ours. But then again, the bottom line that both of us are close to our treaty partners, cannot be far from reality.

That said, TOP wouldn't bring us in such a situation in first place. They know and respect our opinion and wishes. Especially when it comes to drama like this, that is definitely to prevent....

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='scutterbug' date='14 April 2010 - 06:36 AM' timestamp='1271241372' post='2259941']
Then Ramirus will start to wonder where all his friends have gone after treating them like worthless idiots in the negotiations and what not eh? Like i said he will reap what he sows should anything come to pass of it. Fairly certain given the choice majority of MHA would let Ramlins get rolled quite happily currently.

Edit:

Ramirus knows i have a problem with him i even publically state it, hes just a coward and would rather talk trash about me behind my back. Thats his problem not mine.
[/quote]
Ramirus won't talk to me either since this war started, even after all I've done. He seems to be in his own world ignoring all outside opinions.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Methrage

[nutkase]

[quote name='Baden-Württemberg' date='14 April 2010 - 06:39 PM' timestamp='1271241534' post='2259943']
You missed the point.

Of course, we cannot violate TOP's sovereignty and they cannot violate ours. Of course your means of communication might be different from ours. But then again, the bottom line that both of us are close to our treaty partners, cannot be far from reality.

That said, TOP wouldn't bring us in such a situation in first place. They know and respect our opinion and wishes. Especially when it comes to drama like this, that is definitely to prevent....
[/quote]

What was TSO opinion when TOP told your alliance they are going to hit C&G?

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='nutkase' date='14 April 2010 - 06:24 AM' timestamp='1271240667' post='2259932']
ahaha what?, your saying a IRON ally may declare without approval of IRON?
[/quote]
I think you are mistaking this being about IRON, it is not. It is about Gramlins. If they are allowed to demand unconditional surrender it will set a precedent that is a direct threat to every single alliance on Planet Bob. As I said before, this not about morals this is about the security of every alliance on Bob. So it is not just IRONs allies or alliances that have anything to do with them that may me involved. Gramlins has placed us all under threat by its actions.

[scutterbug]

[quote name='Baden-Württemberg' date='14 April 2010 - 11:39 AM' timestamp='1271241534' post='2259943']
You missed the point.

Of course, we cannot violate TOP's sovereignty and they cannot violate ours. Of course your means of communication might be different from ours. But then again, the bottom line that both of us are close to our treaty partners, cannot be far from reality.

That said, TOP wouldn't bring us in such a situation in first place. They know and respect our opinion and wishes. Especially when it comes to drama like this, that is definitely to prevent....
[/quote]

Are we even on the same planet BoB?

The same bob where TOP declared a whole new war on a completly uninvolved block endangering all of its allies because of its own paranoia?

Guess not eh?

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Methrage' date='14 April 2010 - 09:44 AM' timestamp='1271234656' post='2259874']
MHA has already shown and explained in the past that their eternal treaties mean they'll support that ally when they agree with them, although if they disagree with an ally they could always just not do anything with it like they've done with treaties in the past they can't cancel in a timely manner.

I think MHA has a tendency to hold onto treaties longer than the relationship is there or they willing to fight for that alliance should things go badly. I think Ramirus has long stopped caring what MHA thinks, so there is no relationship other than MHA trying to not look like it was any easy choice when they drop Gremlins or ignore the treaty.
[/quote]

I kind of agree Methrage but to comment like they 2 did is stupid, I'm pretty confident 110% on this that MHA are not RAMlins puppets on a string

[Baden-Württemberg]

[quote name='scutterbug' date='14 April 2010 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1271242994' post='2259955']
Are we even on the same planet BoB?

The same bob where TOP declared a whole new war on a completly uninvolved block endangering all of its allies because of its own paranoia?

Guess not eh?
[/quote]

We weren't happy with the way this whole thing started, they knew that. However, from the first second on they had our promise for assistance, because we knew that they are in a tricky situation. That is why we fought, and that is also why we are accepting the consequences of this war. That said, TOP indeed tried to get us out of this war, however we declined that, and I think, CnG as well. (I am not going into detail, since this is far from the topic of the thread, but if you want to hear the full thing, you can PM or query me)


The difference between the two situations is however, that when we posted the DoW, TOP didn't have the chance to get us out of the situation, while Grämlins can get them out of their war pretty easily. By announcing their terms, and inviting IRON and DAWN to peace negotiations.

[majorddf]

Listen To Hiro... He talks sense. Well not grammatically but you get the gist