Announcement from the desk of the custodial engineer third class

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

hypothetical:

I join Sparta, I have malice intentions from the start. I get in and when I become full member I tech raid Npo, Umbrella, And TOP. Now should those alliance announce DoW on Sparta? Nah, I'm the one to get rolled not the alliance.

But you are saying this is what your logic should allow.

Tech raiding is going to go on if you like it or not. I'm certain GOONS are not the only tech raiders out there too.

You say that but forget the end result and the logical conclusion: assuming you're a Spartan and you declare war on NpO, Umbrella and TOP, what will these alliances probably do (we've seen other reactions, GW I was started by a nuke, no?)?

They will tell your alliance: expel this member so we can make him face consequences. If Sparta refuses to comply, what will be the next logical course of action? Umbrella-NpO-TOP will declare war on Sparta. The underlying premise here is that the alliance will face consequences if they do not surrender their member. Which means: alliances are responsible for the actions of their members.

[ChimpMasterFlash]

How has it backfired in their face, exactly?

They didn't think that by retaliating they would scare you off. It would be laughable for a common alliance but you folks have been known for such raids and a rather loose set of ethics. They knew they wouldn't make you give them peace, heck they're not dumb enough not to know how to get peace when it is written "pm for peace".

We're not trying to spin away from this war. RLMMO and the ZDP entered, knowing full well what was against us. Now, GOONS are calling allies, it's fine, I suppose it is their right, even if we must remark that for micro-alliances that would barely hurt your alliance, as you claimed earlier (I am paraphrasing), it is rather humorous for you to bring a major ally (NpO) to defend you, isn't it?

We salute their entrance, though, and hope they will properly declare war on us since they have entered the fray.

GOONS are calling allies

- we heart <3 our friends long time.

We have called no one. People who are joining in are friends who are doing exactly what you are doing to RLMMO having war fun with friends. They want sweet action too

As for how has it backfired in their face

They stated they want to make a statement and create a friends protecting friends, no tech raiding policy environment.

as a result note the alliance str since war started.

http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance...?Alliance=rlmmo

Goons and Kronos may be losing some infra but we are gaining tech.

If anything their said philosophy has done nothing but to encourage tech raiding against nations who even have nukes. We get to war now which is fun so I agree with you stance and agree with everything your two alliances have done.

[ChimpMasterFlash]

You say that but forget the end result and the logical conclusion: assuming you're a Spartan and you declare war on NpO, Umbrella and TOP, what will these alliances probably do (we've seen other reactions, GW I was started by a nuke, no?)?

They will tell your alliance: expel this member so we can make him face consequences. If Sparta refuses to comply, what will be the next logical course of action? Umbrella-NpO-TOP will declare war on Sparta. The underlying premise here is that the alliance will face consequences if they do not surrender their member. Which means: alliances are responsible for the actions of their members.

Sparta would comply as would GOONS. You see you can't arrive to a logical point C by skipping A & B. The A and B being "they will tell."

GOONS and Kronos was not given an option. RLMMO just went strait to C hoping to prove a point of non-profit.

GOONS face consequences all the time for members going out and messing up. This happens and we have paid more than 3 or 6 mil in reps. We have worked things out for the better and moved on. However in this instance we are working RMMLO into parking lots.

end point. We are open to diplomacy in the beginning.

[Khyber]

- we heart <3 our friends long time.

We have called no one. People who are joining in are friends who are doing exactly what you are doing to RLMMO having war fun with friends. They want sweet action too

As for how has it backfired in their face

They stated they want to make a statement and create a friends protecting friends, no tech raiding policy environment.

as a result note the alliance str since war started.

http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance...?Alliance=rlmmo

Goons and Kronos may be losing some infra but we are gaining tech.

If anything their said philosophy has done nothing but to encourage tech raiding against nations who even have nukes. We get to war now which is fun so I agree with you stance and agree with everything your two alliances have done.

Funny thing is they recognized a war existed with you guys, but never actually declared any nation to nation wars on you guys. All your doing is what was taking place before, tech raiding, they are simply fighting back rather then letting you take their tech then pming you for peace.

You also have a long way to go with me. Your guys are into their 700 infra mark loss each and this is the first day of nukes. And my guess is they will run out of money by round 2, and one of them by round 1. Total Money: $48,574,042 for a 16k infra nation is going to hurt and it is going to hurt bad real soon, I give it 3 days. So you will see how much he drops in NS, I'm willing to bet that while it won't be as quick as mine will fall, it will be be fast paced.

[Khyber]

Sparta would comply as would GOONS. You see you can't arrive to a logical point C by skipping A & B. The A and B being "they will tell."

GOONS and Kronos was not given an option. RLMMO just went strait to C hoping to prove a point of non-profit.

GOONS face consequences all the time for members going out and messing up. This happens and we have paid more than 3 or 6 mil in reps. We have worked things out for the better and moved on. However in this instance we are working RMMLO into parking lots.

end point. We are open to diplomacy in the beginning.

You would have kicked out a member for attacking someone your alliance and goverment allowed for attacks to take place against?

I asked Lazerc if GOONS allowed Nizzle to attack, if he had done anything wrong in your eyes, the answer was a flat no. Your goverment believed he had commited no wrong, if you want I can give you the logs in private. I was not insulting, I was not offensive, I made it clear what ZDP's position was,

a) Was this acceptable behaviour in the eyes of GOONS, answer Yes.

B) Is there a chance for peace? Answer No.

Your goverment therefore approved attacks on another alliance, and didn't wish to see peace, enter your loveable zombies in defense of thier friends. I won't say we did not want this war, ´cause wars are fun, but ideally you want it a bit more evenly matched. Due to that I may be a bit bitter against the NpO, but I totally understand where they are coming from.

[ChimpMasterFlash]

Funny thing is they recognized a war existed with you guys, but never actually declared any nation to nation wars on you guys. All your doing is what was taking place before, tech raiding, they are simply fighting back rather then letting you take their tech then pming you for peace.

You also have a long way to go with me. Your guys are into their 700 infra mark loss each and this is the first day of nukes. And my guess is they will run out of money by round 2, and one of them by round 1. Total Money: $48,574,042 for a 16k infra nation is going to hurt and it is going to hurt bad real soon, I give it 3 days. So you will see how much he drops in NS, I'm willing to bet that while it won't be as quick as mine will fall, it will be be fast paced.

Is a funny thing. I guess that is what happens when you DoW on CN forums. NExt time we will sit on our hands and let nukes fly before attacking. Nah, out friends would have then taken up all the good war slots and that would be no fun.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

We have called no one. People who are joining in are friends who are doing exactly what you are doing to RLMMO having war fun with friends. They want sweet action too

I guess you completly missed the point: you guys were going all mighty about how our puny alliances wouldn't be able to inflict even an ounce of damage at your alliance: yet, you call (or they enter on your behalf, if you prefer, it changes absolutely nothing to the fact that they're fighting along your side) one of the most powerful alliances on Planet Bob to your help. We're not complaining that they decided to join in, we're simply pointing out that you needed help in a fight against us.

Also, if they are doing exactly what we are doing, surely they will be able to produce a DoW in proper form, yes? We would appreciate if that courtesy, shown to belligerents in any conflict, was extended to us.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[ChimpMasterFlash]

You would have kicked out a member for attacking someone your alliance and goverment allowed for attacks to take place against?

I asked Lazerc if GOONS allowed Nizzle to attack, if he had done anything wrong in your eyes, the answer was a flat no. Your government believed he had committed no wrong, if you want I can give you the logs in private. I was not insulting, I was not offensive, I made it clear what ZDP's position was,

a) Was this acceptable behavior in the eyes of GOONS, answer Yes.

B) Is there a chance for peace? Answer No.

Your government therefore approved attacks on another alliance, and didn't wish to see peace, enter your loveable zombies in defense of thier friends. I won't say we did not want this war, ´cause wars are fun, but ideally you want it a bit more evenly matched. Due to that I may be a bit bitter against the NpO, but I totally understand where they are coming from.

Kicked for something like attacking three top alliances yeah. Raiding no, But what you fail to understand while we can not tell him to peace out for raiding an alliance that fall within the guidelines for raiding, you were welcome to come to our government and ask him to stop. In this case Lazer said no, so you were then welcome to tonk the nation raiding. Instead they declared war on GOONS as a whole. We would have loved to watch Nizzle take on RLMMO's. (Again, Nizzle did nothing wrong so we are not going to tell him to do anything.) We let one of our nations recently be the subject of 6 wars for improper raiding. That was fun to watch!

I'm not government So I cannot speak for government. So all the 'kicking' and junk is beyond me. But I do know GOONS have a diplomatic side and respect historical process. Guess our two philosophies just don't match up and this was going to happen anyway. RMMLO isn't going to change and neither is KRONOS , GOONS or any other tech raiding alliance.

[Khyber]

Is a funny thing. I guess that is what happens when you DoW on CN forums. NExt time we will sit on our hands and let nukes fly before attacking. Nah, out friends would have then taken up all the good war slots and that would be no fun.

Read the OP again Chimp.

"We also see that a member of the Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism has also attacked one of our members, so we also accept your war."

No DoW takes place here, war was underway when you allowed your member to attack their alliance. They simply recognized the state of war, and stated that they planned to fight it. Why are you changing facts? Wither you allowed your member to wage war for tech, for vengence, or whatever reason doesn't changed the fact that your alliance allowed a member to wage war on their alliance. You never went to them to explain that you don't support him, and even after they recognized the state of war with you, you never once took the time to go to them to seek peace, but rather expected them to come to you. When I did, I was simply told no.

Like I stated before, aggression is fine, just state it rather then always trying to take some moral high ground. I disagree with your attempt to appear as a victim not the actual tech raid.

[Sardonic]

You'll have to excuse chimp, he's not completely informed about the situation but he likes to post anyway. Of course we called in for backup, we're realists. We simply don't have the top teir capability to take on a 100k nation currently. Nevermind one with a bloated warchest. This is not an issue of morality or any flighty terms like that, it's simply common sense. We're going to minimize the damage you do to us, and that means in this case calling for help. I feel no shame whatsoever in doing this, we are still a relativity young alliance after all.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Sardonic

[Khyber]

Kicked for something like attacking three top alliances yeah. Raiding no, But what you fail to understand while we can not tell him to peace out for raiding an alliance that fall within the guidelines for raiding, you were welcome to come to our government and ask him to stop. In this case Lazer said no, so you were then welcome to tonk the nation raiding. Instead they declared war on GOONS as a whole. We would have loved to watch Nizzle take on RLMMO's. (Again, Nizzle did nothing wrong so we are not going to tell him to do anything.) We let one of our nations recently be the subject of 6 wars for improper raiding. That was fun to watch!

I'm not government So I cannot speak for government. So all the 'kicking' and junk is beyond me. But I do know GOONS have a diplomatic side and respect historical process. Guess our two philosophies just don't match up and this was going to happen anyway. RMMLO isn't going to change and neither is KRONOS , GOONS or any other tech raiding alliance.

So kicked for something like attacking three top alliances yeah. Attacking a small alliance no. All raiding is, is attacking for tech, and since he was an alliance it would be attacking an alliance.

Since you allow one but not the other it comes to the simple fact that your deciding purely on alliance size.

Would the three top alliances see it as an act of war if they knew it was allowed by your goverment? You bet they would, and depending on wiether they want to war with you, have a chance of beating you, who your friends are, and their past and culture they would come to a decision to either wage war, or seek a diplomatic solution.

[ChimpMasterFlash]

I guess you completly missed the point: you guys were going all mighty about how our puny alliances wouldn't be able to inflict even an ounce of damage at your alliance: yet, you call (or they enter on your behalf, if you prefer, it changes absolutely nothing to the fact that they're fighting along your side) one of the most powerful alliances on Planet Bob to your help. We're not complaining that they decided to join in, we're simply pointing out that you needed help in a fight against us.

Also, if they are doing exactly what we are doing, surely they will be able to produce a DoW in proper form, yes? We would appreciate if that courtesy, shown to belligerents in any conflict, was extended to us.

The 'mighty' talk was a response to "we will rage nuke you lolz.' There will be damage no biggie, but we are having fun and this has energized GOONS. BTW it isn't our fault we have drinking buddies with large nations in large alliances. I'll try to remember to have only friends who are in alliances under 15 nations. Wait... I got you now! I'm on my way!

as for the nations who jump in and not declaring DoW...

I guess since everyone is throwing out established historical process, they are just extending your own logic, I dunno man. The rest of this conversation is beyond me. I'm just a soldier who likes to tonk.

[Khyber]

You'll have to excuse chimp, he's not completely informed about the situation but he likes to post anyway. Of course we called in for backup, we're realists. We simply don't have the top teir capability to take on a 100k nation currently. Nevermind one with a bloated warchest. This is not an issue of morality or any flighty terms like that, it's simply common sense. We're going to minimize the damage you do to us, and that means in this case, calling for help. I feel no shame whatsoever in doing this, we are still a relativity young alliance after all.

You shouldn't, the chest thumping and laughing my alliance off as being weak was unnessessary is all that was commented on. You have every right to call on allies.

I'm going to stop posting, since we have argued this to death, you either believe a tech raid is a war, and a alliance sanctioned tech raid is sanctioning a war on an alliance, or you don't and you believe tech raids are not wars and have different rules in play where the alliance sanctioning it's members wars on an alliance is not responsible since they state so in their charter.

[ChimpMasterFlash]

So kicked for something like attacking three top alliances yeah. Attacking a small alliance no. All raiding is, is attacking for tech, and since he was an alliance it would be attacking an alliance.

Since you allow one but not the other it comes to the simple fact that your deciding purely on alliance size.

Would the three top alliances see it as an act of war if they knew it was allowed by your goverment? You bet they would, and depending on wiether they want to war with you, have a chance of beating you, who your friends are, and their past and culture they would come to a decision to either wage war, or seek a diplomatic solution.

Nations are part of an alliance not THE alliance. This is an important distinction.

the rest of the statement is politics.

[ChimpMasterFlash]

Gonna stop posting now, but like to post. I was simply trying to get my post count over 100 on principle

Edited December 5, 2009 by ChimpMasterFlash

[ChimpMasterFlash]

Read the OP again Chimp.

"We also see that a member of the Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism has also attacked one of our members, so we also accept your war."

If that was indeed the meaning it is the worst written and most ambiguous DoW in the history of BoB.

But in context it states "WE" accept your war speaking as an alliance to the audience who is thought to also be an alliance. In which case is a DoW on GOONS the alliance not the nation with in GOONS.

last post I swear...until I post again.

[Sardonic]

You shouldn't, the chest thumping and laughing my alliance off as being weak was unnessessary is all that was commented on. You have every right to call on allies.

I don't recall making a slight against you or your "alliance", RLMMO, on the other hand... well their stats page speaks for itself.

I'm going to stop posting, since we have argued this to death, you either believe a tech raid is a war, and a alliance sanctioned tech raid is sanctioning a war on an alliance, or you don't and you believe tech raids are not wars and have different rules in play where the alliance sanctioning it's members wars on an alliance is not responsible since they state so in their charter.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want. RLMMO is more than welcome to define war as whatever they want it to be. This was never being contested here. I fully confess by their definition we sanctioned a war against them, and by their definition they were fully within their rights to launch a war against us. They have every right to claim we started it. We do not see it this way, nor do many. Their perspective is a narrow view which ignores years worth of precedent in handling raid resolutions. They should have just got a protectorate, signed it, posted it, and we would have stopped. That is what they could have done, that is what they should have done. By our, and indeed, the majority of cyberverse's standards they escalated this, and started the war. Nevermind that they could have at least just attacked the individual raider nations and saved themselves the trouble of attacking alliances several orders of magnitude bigger than them.

Realistically none of this matters however. If there's one thing we care about less than numbers it's ego inflated e-honor. You and RLMMO can cling to your fanciful ideals of how things should be all you want, but they will not shield you from us nor our allies.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Sardonic

[Lunchbox]

This is probably better late then never, and while thanks has been given in private. I would like to formally thank ZPD for coming to our aid.

And to add some have asked why we dont have a protectorate or any treaties. Well its simple most alliances dont like our growth or social communication policy as an alliance one of the reasons TOP dropped us way back when. Treaty wise most alliances would not treaty up with a alliances that goes by a "use them if you got em" policy.

Now I could go into much greater detail about what transpired on the forums and behind close doors, but those that matter(jk kidding goons dont get mad) know, and I dont want to take away from the meaning of this post which is to thank our long time friend Khyber and zpd.

OCC: Folks better be having fun dangit

Well this is what happens when you have to many windows open. Was going to post this in Khybers thread darn.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Lunchbox

[shayde]

Okay so. You do not wish to be raided. Gotcha. When exactly, when you were thinking about ways to respond to raids did you think "suicide run against two larger alliances" was a good idea?

Net result of being raided: loss of resources from the targeted nation.

Net result of being rolled: loss of many many resources from pretty much every nation.

When the first result is undesirable, how does it follow that the second is better?

If your reasoning is to perhaps teach GOONS a lesson, or to deter us from raiding, you obviously don't know much about GOONS. (Tee hee I finally got to say that! B))

If otherwise, I would love to hear it, because so far I have not been able to discern a decent motivation to your actions, other than showboating.

Because standing up for yourself in the face of bullying, when those attacking saw clearly our warnings of retaliation...

Worth losing every pixel for.

The goonies wanted to play might-makes-right, and we're proving it doesn't. They're paying for their actions in their precious game treasure and we're sleeping the sleep of the just. We're doing what is right, bleeding to defend ourselves.

[shayde]

They escalated the war by recognizing a state of war existed between your alliance and theirs? They hadn't even attacked you, not a single member. Their escalation was a couple of words here on the OWFs saying they will fight you tooth and nail and make this enterprise not worth it for you. It's like Athens escalated the raid to a war when they told Grub to bring it. That is when I approached you about a peace, and was told no, we like war.

I like war too, so I have no issue with that, but your escalation from a raid to a war by RLMMO seems a bit much, since the most aggressive action that had taken place to this point, besides people talking tought, was your alliances permitting an alliance member to raid another alliance.

As for your second point, they came in as optional aggression or optional defense since you entered the war first.. You started this war after all, wither they talked to you or not after doing their tough talk doesn't change the fact that you authorized your members under your charter and your goverment to attack another alliance. That is war. Wiether you declare one war or 50 wars you authorized attacks on another alliance, and that is an act of war. At least that is how I see it. I understand the NpO may see it different but that doesn't change why to me it is hardly revisionism. You athorize tech raids on 15 man alliances, Athens did against 40 man alliances, and as far as I can tell NpO is willing to defend one but completely outraged by the other, and while I'm sure they will justify it somehow in the end it simply comes down to having to support your allies. This will greatly reduce the damage you guys take and furthurmore hardly demonstrate if smaller alliances and their allies going balls out will be a test to prove anything, as I'm sure if Athens had resistance from the alliance they authorized tech raids on, I'm sure the NpO would not have backed down in their retoric against Athens.

You are brilliant my Zombie brother. Must be eating the good brains.

He's right. The only "escalation" of this war was the OP standing up and saying we will not go quietly. Your alliance took that as an invitation to curbstomp.

No new nation was attacked by RLMMO,until we were gangjumped well before any attacks were conducted by any other member of RLMMO. The only action taken was a post here... then you all piled on.

So really.. shoe's on the other foot. Why didn't you goonies try to negotiate reps from our one nation who "attacked" you? Especially when you STARTED THIS WAR IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[shayde]

But chimp I asked if it was acceptable by your standards. I went to your leaders, I wanted to know if nizzle had done something you disapprove off. I made it clear that my intentions to defend hinged on that, 'cause otherwise it would be an act of aggression. If Nizzle was rogueing, and RLMMO attacked GOONS for a rogue, then we would have told them that we respectfully can't back them up, not because we disapprove of wars of aggression, just we think the reasoning is a bit weak to sacrific so much for it.

And honestly, if he were a rogue, and we overreacted, then you'd have thought they would have demanded reps and allowed us to enact revenge on such a rogue. A sane alliance would have, and would have piled on the rogue themselves.

Not tell their alliance to pile on us.

[Jack Diorno]

This is probably better late then never, and while thanks has been given in private. I would like to formally thank ZPD for coming to our aid.

And to add some have asked why we dont have a protectorate or any treaties. Well its simple most alliances dont like our growth or social communication policy as an alliance one of the reasons TOP dropped us way back when. Treaty wise most alliances would not treaty up with a alliances that goes by a "use them if you got em" policy.

Now I could go into much greater detail about what transpired on the forums and behind close doors, but those that matter(jk kidding goons dont get mad) know, and I dont want to take away from the meaning of this post which is to thank our long time friend Khyber and zpd.

OCC: Folks better be having fun dangit

Well this is what happens when you have to many windows open. Was going to post this in Khybers thread darn.

Where is my thanks

I declared war on GOONs as well.

[Biazt]

Because standing up for yourself in the face of bullying, when those attacking saw clearly our warnings of retaliation...

Worth losing every pixel for.

The goonies wanted to play might-makes-right, and we're proving it doesn't. They're paying for their actions in their precious game treasure and we're sleeping the sleep of the just. We're doing what is right, bleeding to defend ourselves.

The only thing you're proving is that might DOES make right. Your alliance is bleeding NS at a ridiculous pace, the only thing this event will be is a blip on the radar. Your alliance destroyed and GOONS doing fine and continuing to tech raid.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Biazt

[Tick1]

The only thing you're proving is that might DOES make right. Your alliance is bleeding NS at a ridiculous pace, the only thing this event will be is a blip on the radar. Your alliance destroyed and GOONS doing fine and continuing to tech raid.

Biazt would you please drop that point. If every nation the GOONS raided fought back, raiding would get old extremely quick. It's a known fact that you'll get worn down with all of the fighting. Waring is tiresome even on the winning side, which is why a halt to most wars are called.

Edit: I also speak on behalf of my virtual opinion on raiding. I've raided for the last two years on this nation plus the extra year before I re-rolled. I know warring gets tiresome, especially on the losing side. I grow tired of raiding when it deems non-profitable seeing as I'm a capitalist. Which is why I now look for the best profit when raiding rather than any target available.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Tick1

[Lunchbox]

Where is my thanks

I declared war on GOONs as well.

Oops okay, let me extend that thank you then to all visible and non visible parties aiding us.