Subtleknifewielder Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 We do not see how the Dragon Empire could see the Commonwealth as a friend (we define friend as a country whom who've had good relations with for a while) when they announced support for the Reich when the Reich was clearly an enemy to the Commonwealth. What kind of friend who support one's enemy, even if only temporarily? "A friend who realizes that what their friend is doing is wrong. A true friend will not let their friends get away with any crime." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Verteidiger Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "A friend who realizes that what their friend is doing is wrong. A true friend will not let their friends get away with any crime." Dragon Empire, to our knowledge, had no relationships with the Commonwealth prior to this incident. Amerikanisches Reich of the past did. While we do not say we were friends, we cannot grip our head around why they would support the Commonwealth based on that conclusion. Your argument does not hold up. These nations were not allies, merely acquaintances on the world stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 (edited) "No, they would not. they would wait until it was clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that the planes in question were intending on violating their airspace. Do not presume to know how another nation would react in a similar situation." "The Dragon Empire bombers said to Tahoe that they were intending on violating their airspace. How much more validation is needed?" Edited September 25, 2009 by Sargun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Dragon Empire, to our knowledge, had no relationships with the Commonwealth prior to this incident. Amerikanisches Reich of the past did. While we do not say we were friends, we cannot grip our head around why they would support the Commonwealth based on that conclusion. Your argument does not hold up. These nations were not allies, merely acquaintances on the world stage. "Our best guess is, admittedly, only that--a guess. Only the Dragon Empire could explain it exactly as they saw it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "The Dragon Empire bombers said to Tahoe that they were intending on violating their airspace. How much more validation is needed?" "No, they said they intended to fly over unclaimed territory. That means there was room for persuasion of the non-violent kind, to show thaem that the land was NOT unclaimed." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 (edited) "No, they said they intended to fly over unclaimed territory. That means there was room for persuasion of the non-violent kind, to show thaem that the land was NOT unclaimed." "There was no unclaimed territory to fly through. Promised Land has fallen so far from the once peaceful, kindly nation. All contact will be stopped between our two nations, and we are re-evaluating your access through Gibraltar." Edited September 25, 2009 by Sargun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "There was no unclaimed territory to fly through. Promised Land has fallen so far from the once peaceful, kindly nation. All contact will be stopped between our two nations, and we are re-evaluating your access through Gibraltar." "Evidently you forget we never recognized you. We have little trade in that region, so your gesture is noted with some contempt. You and we know that the territory was officially claimed as a protectorate, however, the fdefinition of protectorate varies from state to state. We view this whole thing a misunderstanding literally blown out of proportion by Tahoe." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V The King Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "At the moment the DE military aircraft entered the protectorate , it was essentially in Tahoan airspace - the protectorate is under Tahoe's military protection, thus it is of no doubt that its airspace would belong to the protector - or on the very least be controlled by him. Now, we all know that Dragon Empire - Tahoe relations were never warm. If one attempted to cross the other's airspace with military crafts... the other wouldn't allow it to pass, undoubtedly. Tahoe gave the bombers an ultimatum to turn back and the pilots did not follow through AFTER they were in Tahoan aispace. Therefore, Tahoe had all of the rights to open fire. If the Empire did not want to cause any sort of provocation or diplomatic circus, they simply would have made it to Texas through the Imperium, their ally. An extra hour or two of flight would have avoided the whole drama. Both parties should go back to the status quo, because the airspace violators already had their punishment - to be shot at and be driven back. End of discussion." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amyante Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "At the moment the DE military aircraft entered the protectorate , it was essentially in Tahoan airspace - the protectorate is under Tahoe's military protection, thus it is of no doubt that its airspace would belong to the protector - or on the very least be controlled by him.Now, we all know that Dragon Empire - Tahoe relations were never warm. If one attempted to cross the other's airspace with military crafts... the other wouldn't allow it to pass, undoubtedly. Tahoe gave the bombers an ultimatum to turn back and the pilots did not follow through AFTER they were in Tahoan aispace. Therefore, Tahoe had all of the rights to open fire. If the Empire did not want to cause any sort of provocation or diplomatic circus, they simply would have made it to Texas through the Imperium, their ally. An extra hour or two of flight would have avoided the whole drama. Both parties should go back to the status quo, because the airspace violators already had their punishment - to be shot at and be driven back. End of discussion." "Apparently Viniland misread something. Allow us to enlighten you." "They were not over Mexico. The Tahoe air force intercepted them 200 NM out from being over the Protectorate over the Pacific Ocean. The dialog broadcast on the Ham Radio ensued. Rather than continue discussion over the matter. our aircraft were fired upon by Tahoe." Tidus noted."Given how far out they were from the airspace and the speed of the bombers, an additional 15-30 minutes of conversation might have ensued before airspace was breached." "Tahoean airspace was never breached. Your argument is therefore invalid as it lacks factual support." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitex Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 The Kitexian government has decided to remain neutral in this conflict until the matter has been looked into fully, as Kitex has good/neutral relations with both the DE and Tahoe. Though President Shiznay has issued this suggestion" All everyone arguing about is 'Did DE aircraft actually penetrate Tahoen airspace?' How about the DE just give the coordinates of where their planes were at the time of the warning and also when the engagement started and Tahoe give the coordinates of where their airspace was in relation to the DE aircraft?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V The King Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 "Apparently Viniland misread something. Allow us to enlighten you.""Tahoean airspace was never breached. Your argument is therefore invalid as it lacks factual support." "Although we still need clarification on where the aircrafts were shot at, it is very much clear that the Dragonesian pilots had the intent to breach Tahoan airspace and ignored a warning to turn back - whereas they replied that they would go through Mexico. We are unsure what you would do, but we wouldn't allow a nearby foreign, non-allied military aircraft that had told us they'd fly over our territory without permission, to do so." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 "Although we still need clarification on where the aircrafts were shot at, it is very much clear that the Dragonesian pilots had the intent to breach Tahoan airspace and ignored a warning to turn back - whereas they replied that they would go through Mexico. We are unsure what you would do, but we wouldn't allow a nearby foreign, non-allied military aircraft that had told us they'd fly over our territory without permission, to do so." "If they truly believed they were going to be flying over unclaimed airspace--it could all be a big misunderstanding." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V The King Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 "If they truly believed they were going to be flying over unclaimed airspace--it could all be a big misunderstanding." "Which is why both parties should call it off and go back to minding themselves." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amyante Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 "That we would not have agreed to either, but we would not have preemptively shot it down until it would have crossed into our airspace either. Claiming to do something and actually doing it are two things that are quite far apart after all. Still, shall we hold these discussions until the point where both Tahoe and the Dragon Empire show the coordinates of their aircraft on a map so that we may have a closer look at this scenario?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 "Which is why both parties should call it off and go back to minding themselves." "All the Dragons want is compensation for the loss of their planes." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 "If they truly believed they were going to be flying over unclaimed airspace--it could all be a big misunderstanding." "Then the Dragon Empire, who knew about Tahoe's anti-intervention pact for years in advance, also had recognized the Tahoan protectorate in Mexico for several months. They only un-recognized the protectorate when Tahoe did something they disagreed with, but that does not make it any less unclaimed. The Dragon Empire sent these bombers to their deaths over a petty, spiteful diplomatic move and is responsible for everything that happened after." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 (edited) "Then the Dragon Empire, who knew about Tahoe's anti-intervention pact for years in advance, also had recognized the Tahoan protectorate in Mexico for several months. They only un-recognized the protectorate when Tahoe did something they disagreed with, but that does not make it any less unclaimed. The Dragon Empire sent these bombers to their deaths over a petty, spiteful diplomatic move and is responsible for everything that happened after." "They are not responsible for the shots being fired in international airspace, and intent was solely transit. You continually ignore those little details." Edited September 26, 2009 by Subtleknifewielder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 "They are not responsible for the shots being fired in international airspace, and intent was solely transit. You continually ignore those little details." "If I sent twenty fully-armed bombers over Promised Land and told you it was solely for transit, would you let me through?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 "If I sent twenty fully-armed bombers over Promised Land and told you it was solely for transit, would you let me through?" "Let's put it this way--we wouldn't shoot them down until they were in our airspace, and we would give more than one warning." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 "Let's put it this way--we wouldn't shoot them down until they were in our airspace, and we would give more than one warning." "So, that's a no. Thanks." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 (edited) "So, that's a no. Thanks." "But we would suggest alternate routes to get to your destination...like directly down." OOC: See if you can figure out the implications. Edited September 26, 2009 by Subtleknifewielder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthey Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 (edited) "To cut through some of the rational justifying the DE's consideration that they were attacked without provocation. It does not matter what the legal status of the waters or airspace they were in was in so far as it was not controlled by an particular sovereign nation. As there is no established codified international maritime law, and corporate international law doesn't govern nations; international waters are in fact open to assertion of right by force at any point. In other words if Tahoe believed they were threatened they could issue an ultimatum or order to the offending nation, and in so far as they had the means to enforce it that edict would itself be law over that given portion of water. Meaning international waters does not grant you the right to be there, or to exist; it only grants entities the right to enforce whatever they beleive should be the norm. If I believe I should have a right of passage and I enforce that then that right is so. That being said the DE was given a clear warning to turn back by the nation of Tahoe. Despite what the DE has said, that they believed it would "be reasonable" or otherwise not enforce the order they were mistaken and as a result their decisions led to the death of their pilot and the destruction of their plane. No one should be sympathizing or arguing the semantics of particular treaties, or legal concepts ad infinitum; as this entire matter could have easily been avoided if not for the poor judgement of a few leaders (attempting either to save a few hundred dollars of fuel, or otherwise to make a point)." - Allison Loraine Edited September 26, 2009 by iamthey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael McBride Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 "All the Dragons want is compensation for the loss of their planes." "The Dragons can take their demands for compensation and shove them up their @#$%." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lutai Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 (edited) "The Dragons can take their demands for compensation and shove them up their @#$%." "Those are some harsh words on DE my friend . " Edited September 26, 2009 by lutai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oates Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 "Those are some harsh words on DE my friend . " Barbaric peoples require barbaric words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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