Wonders

[Ronnie Coleman]

I have this dilemma.

I know that I need to get the SM and then the SSS Wonders. But what should be my third wonder? Should I go for protection, MP wonder, or for the economic bonus, DRA/Internet wonders. My personal choice would be the economic wonders leaning to the DRA wonder because I'm into tech deals. But on the other side I looked at my nation rankings and saw some nuclear armed nations. That rang an alarm and got me thinking about the MP wonder.

I know I'm not going to get my third wonder soon because I need the SM and SSS wonders first. So my projected timing for my third wonder is about 3 months. But I want to get some heads-up before I buy the wrong wonder. I would appreciate any advice about these wonders.

[Rich333]

I think the CIA and SDI are more important than the MP for initial military wonders; the MP is better as a third or fourth military wonder because by then you should be able to afford building a nuclear stockpile. I also think it's generally a good idea to maintain a 2:1 econ:mil ratio for wonders, but not until you've already bought your first five or six econ wonders. Generally, the first six economic wonders should be Stock Market, Social Security System, Internet, Great Temple, National Research Lab, and Great Monument, and should generally be bought in that order.

The Stock Market is generally better than the Social Security System for a first wonder because it's a lot cheaper, so you can shave several days off your savings time. The Social Security System also works by a percentage (and is about equal to a Bank in its effect on your tax income), so it works better when you have a higher base income and does less when you have a lower base income; when you get your first wonder, the Stock Market's fixed +$10 bonus is often worth more than the SSS's percentage bonus, and even when it's not worth as much, the difference is far too small to matter compared to the delay the SSS would introduce into your wonder purchase schedule (never delay, always get a wonder every 30 days, even if you have to settle for a less powerful one... the sooner you buy this month's wonder, the sooner you can buy the next month's, and the one for the month after that, and so on).

The Great Monument is a bit of an oddity because sometimes it's a +4 happiness (+$8) wonder, and sometimes it's a +5 happiness (+$10) wonder; if your people already approve of your government type, it's only a +4 happiness wonder, but if they disapprove, then the GM is a +5 happiness wonder. For a typical nation working on its fifth or sixth econ wonder, the NRL's +5% population bonus (which is equivalent to a +5% income bonus) will generally be worth less than a +5 happiness GM, but more than a +4 happiness GM. When it's time to buy your fifth wonder, if your people don't like your government type, get the GM and save the NRL for the next month, and if your people do like your government type, get the NRL and save the GM for the next month.

The Internet and the Great Temple are practically the same, so it doesn't matter which of the two you buy first, unless for RP reasons you want to set your religion to a type your people don't like, in which case the GT should be bought before the Internet.

The benefits of a DRA aren't worth nearly as much as the bonuses of the econ wonders I listed above, if you're a tech seller; the profit you make off that extra foreign aid slot and the +3% population bonus will almost certainly not match the profit you'd get off of the econ wonders I listed above. If you're a tech buyer or a sender or receiver of lots of development aid, however, the DRA may be worth getting before the NRL and GM, but that's assuming you'll actually make use of all six aid slots on an ongoing basis.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Rich333

[Viluin]

I think the CIA and SDI are more important than the MP for initial military wonders; the MP is better as a third or fourth military wonder because by then you should be able to afford building a nuclear stockpile. I also think it's generally a good idea to maintain a 2:1 econ:mil ratio for wonders, but not until you've already bought your first five or six econ wonders. Generally, the first six economic wonders should be Stock Market, Social Security System, Internet, Great Temple, National Research Lab, and Great Monument, and should generally be bought in that order.

No way, the MP is infinitely more useful than the SDI. You don't have to hold a nuclear stockpile if you're still kinda small, the ability to purchase nuclear weapons makes you much more powerful in war. Even if you have an SDI, you're still gonna be eaten alive against an opponent with nukes unless you have them as well. Personally I'd recommend a Manhattan project before making the 5k infra jump. It takes a while to save up but it's more than worth it. The MP is easily the best military wonder there is.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Viluin

[Haflinger]

In terms of econ wonders, get the interstate before making the 5K infrajump. Other than that, the DRA is better.

As for military wonders... generally for small nations I favour the CIA actually. It's extremely useful at all levels of warfare, even a low-end nation can have 300 spies which hit as 330 with it.

The ancient MP/SDI debate again, heh. I prefer the SDI first, but I also suggest people getting both at the same time basically, normally the SDI then the following month the MP. Having both is significantly better than having just one, whichever it is.

[Viluin]

In terms of econ wonders, get the interstate before making the 5K infrajump. Other than that, the DRA is better.

As for military wonders... generally for small nations I favour the CIA actually. It's extremely useful at all levels of warfare, even a low-end nation can have 300 spies which hit as 330 with it.

The ancient MP/SDI debate again, heh. I prefer the SDI first, but I also suggest people getting both at the same time basically, normally the SDI then the following month the MP. Having both is significantly better than having just one, whichever it is.

I used to think a CIA was useful but it's really not that spectacular at all, especially if you're not maxing out your spies.. As for the MP vs. SDI, do you want to nuke your enemy or do you want to drain your enemy of nukes? Personally I'd rather nuke the enemy. Besides, if you get the MP early on chances are you'll fight non-nuclear nations in a war, in which case the MP will win it for you. MP before SDI imo.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Viluin

[philp110]

Anyone who tells you the SDI or CIA is more important than a MP clearly has never fought a war without an MP. I made the mistake of purchasing a SDI instead of the MP right before the No CB war, about two weeks before being stomped on by IRON. Yeah, that REALLY helped out a lot. Lol. The only thing it did was stop a few nukes and take 75M from my war chest. I dropped below the 5% mark QUICK and there goes all the fun.

There should be zero argument - get the MP first. I don't care if it is more expensive - it is far more powerful than any other wonder (aside from the WRC, but that doesn't count for you).

[zzzptm]

Get the MP and hold on to that uranium trade with all you've got. You don't need to stockpile the weapons. If you're small, buy 'em when you need 'em.

Get the MP.

[Rich333]

I used to think a CIA was useful but it's really not that spectacular at all, especially if you're not maxing out your spies.

If you're not maxing out your spies, you're wasting your CIA. Maxing out your spies should be considered implied in my suggestion to get the CIA first. Especially now that the cap for destroying cash reserves has been raised to $10M per op, max spies are more useful than nukes, particularly for smaller nations, because enemy warchests should be far smaller, while daily weapon replacement costs should eat up a proportionally far larger amount of their reserves, so destroying 10% of their money, up to $20M, every day, should very quickly take them out of the fight. The faster you eliminate an enemy nation's cash reserves, the more quickly they cease to be a threat and instead become a land/tech farm.

As for the MP vs. SDI, do you want to nuke your enemy or do you want to drain your enemy of nukes?

Draining them of nukes is far more useful if you're trying to force them into bill lock. Nukes cost money; forcing your enemy to spend more money is always a good thing in war. It's also more useful against a rogue or in an alliance war, because it's not just you they might target with those nukes, and they can only replace one per day until they pick up a WRC, which they aren't very likely to have outside the top 5% anyway, so their MP ends up not meaning very much.

[Rich333]

Anyone who tells you the SDI or CIA is more important than a MP clearly has never fought a war without an MP. I made the mistake of purchasing a SDI instead of the MP right before the No CB war, about two weeks before being stomped on by IRON. Yeah, that REALLY helped out a lot. Lol. The only thing it did was stop a few nukes and take 75M from my war chest. I dropped below the 5% mark QUICK and there goes all the fun.

There should be zero argument - get the MP first. I don't care if it is more expensive - it is far more powerful than any other wonder (aside from the WRC, but that doesn't count for you).

You were already in the top 5%. You should've had the MP, SDI, and CIA by then; you have 20 wonders now and the war was five months ago so you had 15 wonders then, but if you actually read my suggestion you'd notice that I suggested the MP be bought no later than the 10th wonder, and preferably the 9th, with the CIA and SDI being the seventh and eighth respectively. You also should've had a far larger warchest; I had over a billion already saved up by the time I reached your current infra level. The situation is very different for less developed nations than it is for those at your level of development, or mine; they're far less able to afford nukes and the damage done by nukes, both in actual losses and in replacement costs, is far less significant for them, so the benefits of the CIA and SDI, especially the CIA, will tend to outweigh those of the MP for them.

[zzzptm]

The gentleman from the FCC speaks words of great wisdom. If you were looking for a wonders guide, he just wrote it for ya.

[Delta1212]

Draining them of nukes is far more useful if you're trying to force them into bill lock. Nukes cost money; forcing your enemy to spend more money is always a good thing in war.

Good luck putting someone in bill-lock without putting them in nuclear anarchy.

[Viluin]

If you're not maxing out your spies, you're wasting your CIA. Maxing out your spies should be considered implied in my suggestion to get the CIA first. Especially now that the cap for destroying cash reserves has been raised to $10M per op, max spies are more useful than nukes, particularly for smaller nations, because enemy warchests should be far smaller, while daily weapon replacement costs should eat up a proportionally far larger amount of their reserves, so destroying 10% of their money, up to $20M, every day, should very quickly take them out of the fight. The faster you eliminate an enemy nation's cash reserves, the more quickly they cease to be a threat and instead become a land/tech farm.

$10m per op? Christ. It was still $1m during the karma war, if I am not mistaken. I'll agree that this raises the usefulness of the CIA, because $10m is pretty significant to anyone with a warchest nearing depletion, but it's still less important than the MP and SDI.

Draining them of nukes is far more useful if you're trying to force them into bill lock. Nukes cost money; forcing your enemy to spend more money is always a good thing in war. It's also more useful against a rogue or in an alliance war, because it's not just you they might target with those nukes, and they can only replace one per day until they pick up a WRC, which they aren't very likely to have outside the top 5% anyway, so their MP ends up not meaning very much.

Quite the opposite, nukes become cheaper when you have less, so draining them of nukes will only decrease their expenses. The ONLY way to bill lock a nation is by ZI-ing it or by putting it in nuclear anarchy, in every other situation a nation should be able to pay its bills with its tax collections.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Viluin

[King Wally]

heres something that was in my thinking at present as im about 2700 infra at present and also thinking about my wonder order.

If I purchased a MP early say in the first few wonders and i go into a major war would my enemy asign other nukers to go after me and in a way i would attract more attention then if i was non nuclear (or vise versa... everyone stays clear to avoid the mess).

and in the same token...

If I purchases a SDI early would nuke capable nations avoid me and instead prefer to target a nation with a higher hit rate for them?

Im just trying to think outside the square for how human behaviour comes into play when you purchase certain wonders.

[Carnage]

Even with SDI, people can still nuke with one shot. It happen me 3 times in 1 war. You need luck for SDI to be useful, which I don't have. Completely useless for me.

[Viluin]

Even with SDI, people can still nuke with one shot. It happen me 3 times in 1 war. You need luck for SDI to be useful, which I don't have. Completely useless for me.

During the Karma war, there were like 35 days where my SDI didn't stop a single nuke, out of maybe 50-55 days people tried to nuke me. Three times it happened 5-7 days in a row. The SDI is also pointless when you're outnumbered in war, because your enemies can buy more nukes than your SDI will most likely stop.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Viluin

[maxwell little]

My alliance says get SDI and MP together, so in a span of 31 days you have nukes and nuke protection, having nukesd without an SDI usually makes you a target for nations which do have both, and you end up getting stomped. The ISS mathematically isn't worth it until 8k infra, and the great university is better than GM or any other +5 once you get to 2700 technology, which you should be nearing by the time you get 7 or 8 wonders. I find DRA useful because my alliance needs banking slots, so usually I use all of my slots, except for when tech sellers don't send tech, but thats not my fault.

[Viluin]

My alliance says get SDI and MP together, so in a span of 31 days you have nukes and nuke protection, having nukesd without an SDI usually makes you a target for nations which do have both, and you end up getting stomped. The ISS mathematically isn't worth it until 8k infra, and the great university is better than GM or any other +5 once you get to 2700 technology, which you should be nearing by the time you get 7 or 8 wonders. I find DRA useful because my alliance needs banking slots, so usually I use all of my slots, except for when tech sellers don't send tech, but thats not my fault.

Having an SDI without an MP makes you an incredibly easy target for nations with nukes. Sadly the SDI has no offensive power.

[maxwell little]

Having an SDI without an MP makes you an incredibly easy target for nations with nukes. Sadly the SDI has no offensive power.

The idea is you get them together, we say SDI first just because it gives you more time to save for MP, but some nations do MP first. Against a nuclear nation it's better to have a sdi than to have nothing.

[JoshuaR]

If wealthy, SDI > MP

SDI reduces the damages you take by draining the enemy of nukes, especially if they are unfortunate enough to be facing up to six fronts. It helps your alliance by reducing the total number of nukes you and your friends receive. You can always afford the MP next, and you might already be in the top 5% anyway. Then so what if you drop out of it, you now have a MP to still wield nukes.

MP might be equal or better than an SDI if not wealthy. You look scary and help prevent guys from targeting you versus non-MP nations, and you can inflict nuclear damage whereas your SDI counterparts cannot.

[Rich333]

Good luck putting someone in bill-lock without putting them in nuclear anarchy.

When dealing with nations in the range I've been talking about, plain anarchy should generally be sufficient to drop their tax income lower than their bills.

[Viluin]

When dealing with nations in the range I've been talking about, plain anarchy should generally be sufficient to drop their tax income lower than their bills.

Not at all, normal anarchy is quite a joke actually. If you have trades then normal anarchy is no problem. I remember during the karma war how everyone, especially large nations, was surprised at how little of an impact anarchy had. If I am not mistaken, it halves your population happiness? Not that big of a deal, for most people that's less than 1/3 of their income or something.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Viluin

[Haflinger]

Having an SDI without an MP makes you an incredibly easy target for nations with nukes. Sadly the SDI has no offensive power.

When fighting nuclear rogues, the SDI is better.

Normally a rogue will just be one nation attacking. You only need one nuclear nation to counter to make sure the rogue gets a daily nuke, but you want every nation at war with the rogue to have an SDI for obvious reasons.

In alliance wars, especially when outnumbered, the reverse is true. But they're both really useful, especially in extended alliance wars which both knock people out of the top 5% and greatly reduce the size of nuclear stockpiles.

The SDI is cheaper, but it needs 6 improvement slots. Still I think any nation with enough infra to carry 20 nukes should have the slots free.

Now there's an argument about smaller MP nations, who usually carry hidden silos to stop spies, carrying 5 nukes. Those guys generally aren't big enough for an SDI. They're terrifying to non-nuclear nations in their strength range, but I'm not sure how much actual impact they have on large-scale alliance warfare.

[maxwell little]

I would say almost none, as at that size, which I am assuming is under 5000-6000 infra, they would be outnumbered to the point where they would still be defeated despite being able to nuke the nations they are attacking. A nuke hit isn't as devastating at that size as you can be aided out of bill lock more easily, bills at that size are rarely more than 2-3 million a day and a smaller warchest goes a lot farther. Their strongest ability would be to fight up and nuke a larger nation, doing disproportionate damage, as then the large nation would have its nukes divided over an additional target allowing the friendly large nations to last longer in a fight.

Also, at my size losing half of my income actually would not quite bill lock me, and when I was smaller the margin was even more extreme.

4000 infra: Collections usually 3.5-4 times bills

5000 infra: Same

6000 infra: 3 times bills

7000 infra: 2.5-3, depends on wonders

8500 infra: 2-2.5

Mine was barely 2 before I got GU.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Maxwell

[Delta1212]

When dealing with nations in the range I've been talking about, plain anarchy should generally be sufficient to drop their tax income lower than their bills.

If you have a nation with 200 million dollar war chest (pitifully small at this size). His bills are 10 mil a day With the general effects of war and Anarchy, lets say he drops down to 9 mil a day in taxes. Now he's losing 1 mil a day on his tax/bill equation. This means that the vast majority of his 200 mil is going to go to his military. He's going to run out in one or two rounds and be bill locked anyway, but the larger the war chest, the more rounds that's going to last.

Lets say he gets put into nuclear anarchy. His income is now effectively zero. He's losing 9-10 mil a day just on his bills. That means that after one round, half of his war chest will have been put entirely into bills, rather than being used against you, and he'll be bill locked significantly faster.

Any nation that isn't run by an idiot will have a war chest at the upper levels. Bill locking them in a timely fashion requires draining their money very quickly, and any income they are making only props their war chest up that much longer. Whether it is more or less than their bills is rather immaterial. If he's still bringing in 9 mil a day, and his total expenditure is 30 mil a day on bills and war, then after one week he's down to 53 mil. If he's making nothing because he's been nuked, he runs out of money entirely in under a week. If you want to use a billion dollar war chest, then someone making 9 mil a day and losing 30 to war and bills will run out of money in 47 days. A nation making nothing and spending 30 mil will run out in 33 days.

And this ignoring the fact that with Wonders a lot of higher end nations wouldn't drop below their bill threshold with a normal anarchy anyway. I've got 10k infra and make triple my bills in taxes each day. Non-nuclear anarchy wouldn't even slow me down.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Delta1212

[philp110]

You were already in the top 5%. You should've had the MP, SDI, and CIA by then; you have 20 wonders now and the war was five months ago so you had 15 wonders then, but if you actually read my suggestion you'd notice that I suggested the MP be bought no later than the 10th wonder, and preferably the 9th, with the CIA and SDI being the seventh and eighth respectively. You also should've had a far larger warchest; I had over a billion already saved up by the time I reached your current infra level. The situation is very different for less developed nations than it is for those at your level of development, or mine; they're far less able to afford nukes and the damage done by nukes, both in actual losses and in replacement costs, is far less significant for them, so the benefits of the CIA and SDI, especially the CIA, will tend to outweigh those of the MP for them.

The No CB war I referred to most certainly did not happen 5 months ago and I definitely did not have 15 wonders. I bought 5 economic wonders, then began purchasing a few military wonders. The CIA and SDI first, my next would have been the MP. My point was that I should have bought the MP first.

I had a fairly large war chest at the time and my nation was considerably smaller than it is today.

My situation was an easy reason to avoid an SDI and CIA before getting an MP - I was outnumbered (along with my alliance) and my SDI was completely useless. When you are outnumbered, and your enemies are fighting only one nation (me) or hell, even two or three, my SDI stopping a couple nukes does NOTHING. The CIA did save my nation a few nukes from being spied away, but that was it.