Why I am a Pacifican

[Delta1212]

It is an ugly trend that will take over CN.

Your alliance already set that trend a long time ago.

[Ogaden]

You guys dont have real gov changes, its just switches between the old founding members every so often. Its those old founding members that are the root of the problem and once those are out of power, NPO can start moving forward.

You could not be more wrong. Do you know who the old guard and founders of NPO are, and where they are today?

Go ask Mussolandia.

The regent of NPO, who is the #2 for the whole alliance and is next in line for the throne should Moo be hit by a bus or something is Mary the Fantabulous, who used to lead GPA.

Edited June 16, 2009 by James Dahl

[Klonopin]

Then, eventually, you'll find yourselves again beaten down and faced by familiar and new faces and the circle will continue. All your hypothetical would prove is that the NPO hadn't learned why what's happening right now is happening.

Am I understanding you correctly? Karma is now the watch dog of CN. A force that will not dissolve at the end of the war?

[Klonopin]

Your alliance already set that trend a long time ago.

I wasn't here 3 years ago. I can't answer that.

But isn't two wrongs...still a wrong.

I am not talking about white peace. I am just asking if Reps should be for the past three years or just the current conflict.

[Teriethien]

The devil is in the details as always and while I wait for stuff to get done at work I would clarify a couple of things.

It is indeed inaccurate to to say the NPO declared after negotiations ended. If you would be so kind as to look back at my statement.

"See it does not really matter but it would be more accurate to say NPO declared war at the end of negotiations since negotiations ended at that point" notice not after negotiations had ended.

So it is indeed technically more accurate then the previous statement.

{ooc} I hate hurry up and wait experiments so yes I am bored as well {/ooc}

Very well, I bow before your superior detail deviling skills.

[ooc]This is an ooc area[/ooc]

[King DrunkWino]

Am I understanding you correctly? Karma is now the watch dog of CN. A force that will not dissolve at the end of the war?

No, you're not understanding me correctly. You won't face Karma again. In that hypothetical, you'll face a whole new collection of forces comprised of people you see now and new faces that you'll have stepped on in the intervening time.

Edited June 16, 2009 by King DrunkWino

[Delta1212]

I wasn't here 3 years ago. I can't answer that.

But isn't two wrongs...still a wrong.

I am not talking about white peace. I am just asking if Reps should be for the past three years or just the current conflict.

Either way, my point was that this isn't really threatening to set any trends.

As an aside, you really might want to change your sig. That and the Dogma pic really make you guys look bad, not the other way around.

[Teriethien]

In no way was I making threats. Through a "A hypothetical situation", I was trying to show where this was going.

Am I saying that NPO should be given White Peace? No of course not.

But the true spirit of Reps is to pay for damages take during the current conflict. Not perceived damages from three years ago.

That's fine, but these reps aren't meant to pay for damages. In face reps simply can't pay for damages. What they are is a symbolic punishment being dealt on the NPO for its past crimes. We can argue (or not actually..) about the severity of the punishment but they are hardly just the product of the NPO's action in this war.

[King DrunkWino]

As an aside, you really might want to change your sig. That and the Dogma pic really make you guys look bad, not the other way around.

I thought that was a rather nice warning for the rest of us.

[King Death II]

You could not be more wrong. Do you know who the old guard and founders of NPO are, and where they are today?

Go ask Mussolandia.

The regent of NPO, who is the #2 for the whole alliance and is next in line for the throne should Moo be hit by a bus or something is Mary the Fantabulous, who used to lead GPA.

yes but Mary has been in NPO for well over 2 years, hence she is an old member. also here is the list of members and who are part of the old NPO

* Imperial Regent: Mary the Fantabulous - (Old member)

* Imperial Counselor: Vladimir (Old member), Philosopher(Old member), Koona(Old member), Frawley(Old member), Bakunin's Dream (Old member)

* Standartenfuhrer: Dilber (Old member)

* Military Affairs: Loucifer(Old member), Umbrae Noctem(Old member)

* Diplomacy and Foreign Affairs: VektorZero(Old member), Hawk_11(Old member, ), DarkMistress and Triyun(Old member)

* Internal Affairs: noob5(Old member), Sir Donald R. Deamon(Old member)

* Economic Affairs: Millionario(Old member), Cortath(Old member), Lord Strider(Old member)

* News and Propaganda: Z'ha'dum(Old member)

* Clerk: Sir Paul (Old member)

And I used to be a NPO member too. All the people listed as Old member used to be in a gov position when I was a member in 07. They might have changed positions but they are still gov. I just proved you false about changing gov.

[Archon]

I suppose I might try with you in a few months Archon, when there will be less of an in-game conflict on interests to derail the discussion.

It's a date.

[Klonopin]

No, you're not understanding me correctly. You won't face Karma again. In that hypothetical, you'll face a whole new collection of forces comprised of people you see now and new faces that you'll have stepped on in the intervening time.

Thanks for straightening that out for me. I could of sworn that I read somewhere the Karma Coalition would dissolve after the war.

So two years from now. NPO will piss off an entirely new group of AAs. That will form Karma 2.0?

Hypothetical situation -- if NPO was to accept all Karma terms night now. Do you think all that hatred would subside?

I tend to believe it wouldn't.

[Klonopin]

That's fine, but these reps aren't meant to pay for damages. In face reps simply can't pay for damages. What they are is a symbolic punishment being dealt on the NPO for its past crimes. We can argue (or not actually..) about the severity of the punishment but they are hardly just the product of the NPO's action in this war.

A question I can't seem to get answered today, "Aren't the true spirit of Reps to pay for the damages of the current conflict"?

[Ogaden]

yes but Mary has been in NPO for well over 2 years, hence she is an old member. also here is the list of members and who are part of the old NPO

* Imperial Regent: Mary the Fantabulous - (Old member)

* Imperial Counselor: Vladimir (Old member), Philosopher(Old member), Koona(Old member), Frawley(Old member), Bakunin's Dream (Old member)

* Standartenfuhrer: Dilber (Old member)

* Military Affairs: Loucifer(Old member), Umbrae Noctem(Old member)

* Diplomacy and Foreign Affairs: VektorZero(Old member), Hawk_11(Old member, ), DarkMistress and Triyun(Old member)

* Internal Affairs: noob5(Old member), Sir Donald R. Deamon(Old member)

* Economic Affairs: Millionario(Old member), Cortath(Old member), Lord Strider(Old member)

* News and Propaganda: Z'ha'dum(Old member)

* Clerk: Sir Paul (Old member)

And I used to be a NPO member too. All the people listed as Old member used to be in a gov position when I was a member in 07. They might have changed positions but they are still gov. I just proved you false about changing gov.

You used the term 'founder', you can't then redefine what that means.

[Delta1212]

Thanks for straightening that out for me. I could of sworn that I read somewhere the Karma Coalition would dissolve after the war.

So two years from now. NPO will piss off an entirely new group of AAs. That will form Karma 2.0?

Technically speaking, you could call it CoaLUEtion 3.0, since Karma and the CoaLUEtion are fairly similar in broad respects. Karma as a whole just sucks a little less at CN. This is already the second time it's happened, and with, as Wino said, some old and many new faces.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Delta1212

[Delta1212]

A question I can't seem to get answered today, "Aren't the true spirit of Reps to pay for the damages of the current conflict"?

Yes, but I seriously doubt you want your opponents asking to repay the damages of the current conflict. That would be something you'd never pay off.

[King DrunkWino]

Thanks for straightening that out for me. I could of sworn that I read somewhere the Karma Coalition would dissolve after the war.

So two years from now. NPO will piss off an entirely new group of AAs. That will form Karma 2.0?

Hypothetical situation -- if NPO was to accept all Karma terms night now. Do you think all that hatred would subside?

I tend to believe it wouldn't.

The majority's thoughts over the NPO won't depend on whether or not you accept those terms, worse terms, or more lenient terms, but on what the NPO does after the war.

See, your alliance has a history, one that it's very proud of. In that history, there was only one time that you ever came close to whats happening now. The interesting part about that, is that in the aftermath of that, your alliance blasted apart those that once stood against it.

That's what's going to determine whether the hate will ever subside, what you do with the tomorrow. If you attempt to do what you've done in the past, people will be expecting it and their opinions of the NPO won't change for the better. Now if you come away with this with a new found respect for other players and other alliances sovereignty, then maybe you have a chance.

Then again, like I said, I've been waiting at the train station in Cynic Town for a while.

/Oh, and I wouldn't label it Karma 2.0 yet. I'm hoping for a much better name, like "Princess Power," or "WereBear."

[sirrontail]

Then, eventually, you'll find yourselves again beaten down and faced by familiar and new faces and the circle will continue. All your hypothetical would prove is that the NPO hadn't learned why what's happening right now is happening.

So why doesn't Karma not follow the vicious circle?

If through repeating our actions is Karma for our actions, then Karma will come around for your actions, then Karma will come around for New Karma's actions ... and the whole process will go on ad nauseam.

All the terms show is that you haven't learnt from the lessons that this war was about teaching us - that draconian actions will come back to bite you.

But like I said, surely you can break this circle through not giving draconian terms?

[Klonopin]

Technically speaking, you could call it CoaLUEtion 3.0, since Karma and the CoaLUEtion are fairly similar in broad respects. Karma as a whole just sucks a little less at CN. This is already the second time it's happened, and with, as Wino said, some old and many new faces.

You have to admit this has been fun. CN was getting stale for me.

In two years, I think we will be ready for 3.0

[Locke]

If I may interrupt here.

The terms state 14 days. How can you say it is not 14 days?

As I have said before, the term may be badly worded but our intentions were quite clear from the beginning. We would only declare war when they would have met the conditions as stated in that term. I'll once again quote the term Moo posted and bold the important part.

As you can see the term here implies that we would only engage when the conditions were met. But I'll give you the point that this could be interpreted differently. That does not change the fact that NPO was told in private that this would be the case, as I have already said somewhere in this thread, which basically nullifies your argument.

14 days after terms are met, yes, I understand that perfectly. Nothing in the terms, however, seem to imply that you won't be attacking those who are moving to war mode in the time before the 90%, which is why I say minimum, not maximum. Once 90% is met, it is a maximum of 14 days, but as said before, it will take more than a single day to pull this off, and I can't see that...was it 17 alliances declared on NPO will all hold off. If you can pull together such a varied assortment of alliances towards this, I will applaud you, since coordinating just NPO from inside of NPO seems to quite the difficulty, complicated by people simply ignoring orders. You think every single member under Karma will be able to pull off something greater than a far smaller number under one alliance? It's like coordinating war efforts between different countries: it's not easy.

[Necromancer V4L]

yes but Mary has been in NPO for well over 2 years, hence she is an old member. also here is the list of members and who are part of the old NPO

* Imperial Regent: Mary the Fantabulous - (Old member)

* Imperial Counselor: Vladimir (Old member), Philosopher(Old member), Koona(Old member), Frawley(Old member), Bakunin's Dream (Old member)

* Standartenfuhrer: Dilber (Old member)

* Military Affairs: Loucifer(Old member), Umbrae Noctem(Old member)

* Diplomacy and Foreign Affairs: VektorZero(Old member), Hawk_11(Old member, ), DarkMistress and Triyun(Old member)

* Internal Affairs: noob5(Old member), Sir Donald R. Deamon(Old member)

* Economic Affairs: Millionario(Old member), Cortath(Old member), Lord Strider(Old member)

* News and Propaganda: Z'ha'dum(Old member)

* Clerk: Sir Paul (Old member)

And I used to be a NPO member too. All the people listed as Old member used to be in a gov position when I was a member in 07. They might have changed positions but they are still gov. I just proved you false about changing gov.

There is more to our government than the Imperial Officers, and you should know that. I don't understand what the hell you are trying to prove here, WE KNOW AND UNDERSTAND OUR OWN ALLIANCE. If you are trying to tell the rest of CN how evil we are, I think you guys already pulled that one off.

[Tromp]

Oh, here is the "You're as bad as we were" argument again. Meh.

That was proven false a long time ago.

[Teriethien]

A question I can't seem to get answered today, "Aren't the true spirit of Reps to pay for the damages of the current conflict"?

Perhaps in theory. In practice though no such reparations will likely be possible given the costs of any reasonably symmetrical war. Can it really be the spirit of reparations to pay for damages, if doing so fully is actually near impossible? I highly question it. That's why we see reps being used symbolically and as a form of punishment. It's why Karma generally don't ask for reps from alliances that did not enter the war as aggressors, and why people would support white peace on the grounds that 'they've lost enough NS'.

[King DrunkWino]

So why doesn't Karma not follow the vicious circle?

If through repeating our actions is Karma for our actions, then Karma will come around for your actions, then Karma will come around for New Karma's actions ... and the whole process will go on ad nauseam.

All the terms show is that you haven't learnt from the lessons that this war was about teaching us - that draconian actions will come back to bite you.

But like I said, surely you can break this circle through not giving draconian terms?

Do you automatically label anyone that doesn't agree with your points of view "Karma?"

[Teriethien]

14 days after terms are met, yes, I understand that perfectly. Nothing in the terms, however, seem to imply that you won't be attacking those who are moving to war mode in the time before the 90%, which is why I say minimum, not maximum.

My understanding is that Karma will mark the nations and attack them for 14 days; no more and no less. And it's said that this is what Karma told the NPO, too, so there's no excuse for misunderstanding.