The Great Catastrophe

[Blacky]

Note: As has been stated on several occasions I have included the happening of IRC as strictly in character.

More commonly called the Great War 1 or The Great Patriotic War, the great catastrophe marked the ultimate failure of the involved alliances against the more resolute and organised New Pacific Order and what was at one time their colony in the blue sphere.

In the execution of the war the performance was to be expected from a large conglomerate of alliances, they fought relatively well and by the end of the war had dropped the New Pacific Order several places in the alliance strength rankings from then a decisive lead, to below the alliance a third of their strength which they transgressed the LUEnited Nations.

Although the bulk of the alliances joined the coaLUEtion due to sympathy for the LUEnited Nations plight, others notably Legion joined out of paranoia of the the New Pacific Order, believing that they would strike them as they had many others some day. In fact it would not be for some time that the New Pacific Order would get their revenge, and that would mark another failure of the opposition at the time to the New Pacific Order. In the differing reasons for the war it was true that the various alliances involved were not resolute enough to enact a set of terms fitting for the New Pacific Order's transgressions against various alliances up until that point.

All those that would later bare the brunt of the New Pacific Order's imperialistic nature might have to look back and see where this great coalition erred and to find the point is not that difficult. The cause of the catastrophe as was shown earlier was not the execution of the war, or even the rallying of support for the cause of the LUEnited nations. All of that was done impeccably.

[7/19/2006 11:11 PM] <Ivan_Moldavi> The false bravado is wasted here with me. I know that we are statistically "losing" at present but I also know that that may not necessarily always be the case and that it could drag on for months before anything substantial actually happens

[7/19/2006 11:11 PM] <Sir_Paul> And you'll lose more if we don't have peace

Rather the fault was on the terms in which they ended the war. The terms might have been appropriate had it been suitable or desirable to the coalition involved. But the fact remains that it was not, the fault came from allowing the defeated party, the New Pacific Order dictate the terms of surrender.

[7/19/2006 11:07 PM] <Ivan_Moldavi> ODN and GGA get $1million. GATO gets $2 and the rest get nothing unless they can provide a treatied reason to be in the war, in which case they get $500k?

[7/19/2006 11:08 PM] <Chris_Kaos> I have lost 2 million alone.

[7/19/2006 11:08 PM] <Ivan_Moldavi> I don't care

In allowing the New Pacific Order to dictate the terms, and later alter them completely to their liking the weakness in the involved alliances was exposed to themselves and to all those involved. In the aftermath of the war the NPO enacted brutal policies, ritualistic beatings, anything that would ensure that they remained dominant and could never again be placed in a similar position.

History would show that the New Pacific Order used this victory against all odds, this glimmer of light after what was a sweaty, blood-soaked, nuclear fallout of a defeated war as fuel to later defeat all of the involved alliances several times over, in several different incarnations. And so the great catastrophe, later negotiated down to white peace with no real admission of defeat and with the New Pacific Order in better standing in the community than it had been prior was the cause of all the suffering experienced over a very long time.

It is now though that we must realise that all that went wrong then, all that should have been differently, all of that which has lead us down a dark and bloody path filled with wars and hate filled vendettas can be repeated if the coalition at war with the New Pacific Order at present is not resolute and errs in allowing them to dictate terms suitable for them. Only in surrender and defeat can the New Pacific Order be allowed to limp off the battlefield, hopefully in to the dark recesses of their private quarters never to show their faces again.

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Great_War_IRC_Log

[TehChron]

Although the bulk of the alliances joined the coaLUEtion due to sympathy for the LUEnited Nations plight, others notably Legion joined out of paranoia of the the New Pacific Order, believing that they would strike them as they had many others some day. In fact it would not be for some time that the New Pacific Order would get their revenge, and that would mark another failure of the opposition at the time to the New Pacific Order. In the differing reasons for the war it was true that the various alliances involved were not resolute enough to enact a set of terms fitting for the New Pacific Order's transgressions against various alliances up until that point.

I wouldn't call anything we did back then "transgressions". Blitz admitted several times as Military leader of NAAC that they were gearing up for a war against us. We just caught them spying, and "sprung the trap" as it were. The fact that other alliances joined in due to NAAC having spies in them as well is largely immaterial.

[ooc]The first Polar War was brought about by the NAAC of that time generally being complete asses on the OWF,*removed*[/ooc[

The Citrus War was fought between two individuals who had been raring to go at one another since day one. ODN wanted that fight, and provoked us.

Warpstorm was again, spying.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Vivi
mod bias claims of past or present mods are not allowed

[James Wilson]

This will end well...

The NPO has never been damaged like this before. And I'm very confidant that most of the alliances at war with them will seek reperations no matter what. If they don't, the people in charge of said alliances are complete morons.

[CRexx]

The failure of the alliances comes trully in the period following the First Great War, not in the First Great War itself. Military victory was achieved in the First Great War, as the opening poster notes the NPO was reduced by a significant margin of strength. The light peace and the fact that the NPO was not humbled were key issues, but the failures of the League between the First Great War and the Second Great War was the true catastrophe.

Pacifca rebuilt faster than the victors. It rose back to the top while other alliances had poor internal growth rates. Nuclear rearmament, average NS, war chests and other key areas were neglected by many League alliances. This is not to say all League powers did not rearm properly, but many did not.

At the same time Pacifica forged new political ties while the League suffered from internal strife. It would lead to some alliances sitting out the Second Great War rather than entering on the League side.

The catastrophes that came come more from the fact that the anti-Pacifican forces had no post war vision. They did not forge strong diplomatic ties and their internal economics were poor compared to those of Pacifica and its allies. This set the stage for Great War II and Great War III. If the League alliances had rebuilt and rearmed, and remained united Great War II could have been winnable, this making the light peace Pacifica was given in Great War I less of an issue.

[Electron Sponge]

Ah, mammaries.

[BamaBuc]

Yes! Let's humiliate them! That will surely NOT make them want revenge! From a simply realpolitik standpoint, humiliating a strong-willed foe is a dumb strategy.

Now, to your analysis of post-GW1. Look, I wasn't around in those days, but as I always understood it, GW2 came about due to the remaining mutual animosity between the Orders and the CoaLUEtion. In the past few months, this has been suddenly rewritten as "CoaLUEtion went on it's merry way and NPO made an evil plot to destroy these innocent alliances who surely had nothing at all to do with the buildup to GW2 and had absolutely no desire to fight the Orders again." This is used as an argument for giving NPO humiliating terms, because otherwise they might come back for revenge like they supposedly did in GW2 (although humiliating terms would surely not make them want revenge). Now, I'm sure they did want payback. I remember Chron saying recently that the apology Ivan was forced to give became a sort of rallying point for NPO. They viewed it as forced humiliation. IMO you can't force someone to be sorry, but that's a discussion for another thread. Point is, I take issue with the argument that GW2 was due to a one-sided desire for revenge and not a mutual desire for war. People who were around then, feel free to correct me.

-Bama

[TehChron]

Ah, mammaries.

They are wonderful to dwell upon, aren't they?

[Blacky]

I wouldn't call anything we did back then "transgressions".

I would concede that they were nothing in light of the transgressions which followed it.

Blitz admitted several times as Military leader of NAAC that they were gearing up for a war against us.

There is no way that you can spin Polar War 2, or the position of the NAAC prior to it as being one planning to declare war against the NPO. As you might be aware there was an internal divide at the time and the New Pacific Order was seen unfavourably but, that is not the same thing.

The first Polar War was brought about by the NAAC of that time generally being complete asses.

Yes, I believe the excuse for that transgression was "They're breathing our air".

snip

I see that it's impossible for you to concede that the New Pacific Order was a hostile alliance. Perhaps that might merely be a difference in opinion, as to what constitutes hostility and whether or not hostility of this nature is justified. We can both agree though that at the time and that is what is relevant it was seen as such, with the formation of the New Polar Order, the ODN oath, coupled with the aggressive wars was enough to induce hysteria and paranoia of the New Pacific Order as an imperialistic or hostile alliance. History proves they were right.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Blacky

[Electron Sponge]

They are wonderful to dwell upon, aren't they?

yes

Look, everyone needs to recognize something here. If you give NPO light terms they are going to build up quickly and come back for revenge. If you give them heavy terms they are going to build up less quickly and come back for revenge. The point is, if you're trying to stop them from coming back for revenge you better not ever make peace with them because I can guaran-damn-tee they are coming for us all eventually.

I'll be ready and waiting.

Yes, I believe the excuse for that transgression was "They're breathing our air".

Yes that was the joke declaration, which was followed up with a real declaration. *removed*/ooc/

Edited May 30, 2009 by Vivi
mod bias claims or discussing actions of past or present mods are not allowed

[Anthony]

It's so good to look back. It's just a shame that I lost all my logs from non-peace talk chats. They were real fun times.

[Blacky]

Look, everyone needs to recognize something here. If you give NPO light terms they are going to build up quickly and come back for revenge.

The quantity of the reparations demanded as per the surrender terms are not the biggest issue here. It is whether or not they will be treated as the defeated here and that demands are made. The fact is that prior to the great catastrophe the New Pacific Order, dove doctrine and all was at the time an unchallenged power. Prior to this war with One Vision and the Continuum being overly powerful blocs used to create the New Pacific Order led hegemony was further the grossest example of centralised power ever seen. Rebuilding their alliance is much less important than rebuilding their status, and the fact is their status came partly out of fear and also from those who sought protection or peace under the system created. That takes more than light terms to rebuild, it takes amnesia on the part of all those who experienced the hegemony as led by the New Pacific Order.

If you give them heavy terms they are going to build up less quickly and come back for revenge. The point is, if you're trying to stop them from coming back for revenge you better not ever make peace with them because I can guaran-damn-tee they are coming for us all eventually.

I'll be ready and waiting.

Again, there is more to it than petty games of revenge, punitive monetary reparations and other such. At their peak they commanded only a small portion of the entire strength. It is through diplomatic ties and complacency that they were able to achieve revenge. That and the introduction of many new alliances with agendas of their own and rallying of these alliances. The point is this war needs to be won decisively first and then the rest of that can be dealt with.

[TehChron]

I see that it's impossible for you to concede that the New Pacific Order was a hostile alliance. Perhaps that might merely be a difference in opinion, as to what constitutes hostility and whether or not hostility of this nature is justified. We can both agree though that at the time and that is what is relevant it was seen as such, with the formation of the New Polar Order, the ODN oath, coupled with the aggressive wars was enough to induce hysteria and paranoia of the New Pacific Order as an imperialistic or hostile alliance. History proves they were right.

Be that as it may, I'm not denying it. We were certainly eager to beat down those who wanted to make themselves our enemies. But to be frank:

There is no way that you can spin Polar War 2, or the position of the NAAC prior to it as being one planning to declare war against the NPO. As you might be aware there was an internal divide at the time and the New Pacific Order was seen unfavourably but, that is not the same thing.

No. Just no. There was no "spin" neccessary. The NAAC made fine messes on their own. Blitz stated they assumed, thanks to a spy they admitted to having planted in the NPO, that we would attack an unofficial "protectorate" of the NAAC, and thus were gearing up to fight for them.

Now, spying was enough of a CB for PWII to occur. But, let's be honest here. Back then, the NAAC leadership wasn't too bright. They were preparing for war. This much we were aware of. They were also spying on us. This we caught.

Clearly there was hostile intent, and the fact that the head of the NAAC military only admitted to it several times over the course of the war only certifies the justification.

If you have a problem admitting that the NAAC leadership was incompetent up until AirMe took the reins, that's your perogative. But facts are facts.

[Electron Sponge]

Blacky, I know NPO a hell of a lot better than most people (you included) and I'm telling you that they're already starting to plan for the next war if they've got even a bit of the old spirit left. For you it may be some complex interplay of variables, but to NPO it's really quite simple. They got beat and they're going to try and return the favor any way they can. Given that Karma is already politically fractured and the war isn't even over yet, I'd say NPO will have a pretty easy time dividing and conquering after their terms are up and they've rebuilt.

There's no political will to keep them down and there's no political unity to keep them afraid. If I were them I'd be salivating.

[Blacky]

snip

That frankly has very little to do with the topic at hand.

The point was not whether or not with reflection the wars were justified. But at the time, the New Pacific Order was seen to be a hostile or imperialistic alliance that had transgressed various alliances. Later though the feelings towards the nature of the New Pacific Order would prove to be true, as we have seen since the end of that war.

For you it may be some complex interplay of variables, but to NPO it's really quite simple. They got beat and they're going to try and return the favor any way they can.

I don't see it as all that complex and if you want to do this in layman's terms I've no problem with that mechanics and politics aside.

We beat them partly due to some of us playing their game for long enough to have a little meat on our bones and partly due to having the nerve to finally tell them that we didn't like how they were doing things.

The way they won after losing Great War 1 was by being quick to snatch up potential muscle and putting it on their side. They can try and do that again but unless we all forget how we didn't like the way they did things nobody from our side is going to want to be on their side to do it all again.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Blacky

[Mozaffar]

It all truly depends on whether NPO can go back from being Hegemon guarding the status quo to being an effective powerbroker in a multilateral world as they were before at least GWII. Should the NPO be able to make that transition then I am sure there will be a comeback, especially if the "omg karma is as bad as hegemony" crowd gets their way And if there is a comeback, they'll take out their enemies one by one.

I've seen someone warning that the NPO could end up in a perpetual war much like the FAN. It wouldn't even be that bad of an idea to keep their influence in check.

[TehChron]

That frankly has very little to do with the topic at hand.

The point was not whether or not with reflection the wars were justified. But at the time, the New Pacific Order was seen to be a hostile or imperialistic alliance that had transgressed various alliances. Later though the feelings towards the nature of the New Pacific Order would prove to be true, as we have seen since the end of that war.

Er...What? No, the wars against NAAC were justified. My entire point in replying was that of all the beatdowns we gave prior to the GPW, the Polar Wars were, in fact, the most justified. Trying to dodge the point I made for the sake of throwing a strawman that has nothing to actually do with your OP does nothing to advance your own argument.

A strong historical theory can internalize potential contradictions, and prove why they aren't. If yours can not do that, then it is not a very strong analysis to begin with.

We beat them partly due to some of us playing their game for long enough to have a little meat on our bones and partly due to having the nerve to finally tell them that we didn't like how they were doing things.

The way they won after losing Great War 1 was by being quick to snatch up potential muscle and putting it on their side. They can try and do that again but unless every forgot how they didn't like the way they did things nobody from our side is going to want to be on their side.

You forget that the NPO actually invented that approach? And that the person responsible for it's creation is, in fact, still there? For all you know, Dilber could come up with a new approach that allows them to come back and roll you into oblivion for another 3 years.

Karma really doesn't have the luxury of underestimating them.

if you honestly think you would have beaten us without the Coven or the Paranoia within the alliances that backstabbed the NPO at the time, then you are simply naive.

[Blacky]

My entire point in replying was that of all the beatdowns we gave prior to the GPW, the Polar Wars were, in fact, the most justified. Trying to dodge the point I made for the sake of throwing a strawman that has nothing to actually do with your OP does nothing to advance your own argument.

Actually it has everything to do with the initial argument. The tangent which you are taking this on though does not. The point is at the time they were seen as transgressions against the involved alliances.

The fact that the coaLUEtion was not resolute enough to enact a fitting punishment was part of the failure.

Karma really doesn't have the luxury of underestimating them.

It is not Karma that has underestimated their opposition, quite the contrary. As Electron Sponge said to me at the onset of this war. They really thought they could win this.

I'm more concerned with a decisive victory at this point rather than underestimating anybody. You may now continue apologizing for the New Pacific Order's hegemony though.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Blacky

[TehChron]

Actually it has everything to do with the initial argument. The tangent which you are taking this on though does not. The point is at the time they were seen as transgressions against the involved alliances.

The fact that the coaLUEtion was not resolute enough to enact a fitting punishment was the ultimate failure.

It is not Karma that has underestimated their opposition, quite the contrary. As Electron Sponge said to me at the onset of this war. They really thought they could win this.

I'm more concerned with a decisive victory at this point rather than underestimating anybody. You may now continue apologizing for the New Pacific Order's hegemony though.

Is that the new line of attack against me making the rounds? I don't recall ever apologizing. Beating them down was fun back then, completely different to the malicious crap of the present NPO.

I admit it, I had fun beating down on the NAAC. I had fun with thoroughly pointing out how much of a failure they were back then. I had fun teasing Blitz endlessly as he spoke the truth and revealed for everyone to see just what a joke the NAAC was back then.

Karma can't underestimate the NPO. That's a fact. If they want to defeat the NPO, they need to make it permanent, or else it'll come back to haunt them. Again.

Your larger point is that the NPO was always an evil overlord, the amoral, blatantly evil mass it is today. My counter is that the Pacifica of 2006 was a completely different alliance, culturally and morally. We didn't need to fabricate CBs back then. And we didn't. Folks practically tripped over themselves to hand them over.

The equivalency your assuming between the two alliances is what I'm faulting. And I think I know a little bit more about the NPO than you do. If you think that that is a completely different tangent, mind elaborating? Because the way I see it, it cuts to one of your theory's core assumptions and questions it.

[Blacky]

If you think that that is a completely different tangent, mind elaborating? Because the way I see it, it cuts to one of your theory's core assumptions and questions it.

The core assumption was that at the time, at least by those opposing the New Pacific Order those were seen as transgressions. I'm not arguing whether or not they were because that would be the tangent I'm trying to avoid.

[TehChron]

The core assumption was that at the time, at least by those opposing the New Pacific Order those were seen as transgressions. I'm not arguing whether or not they were because that would be the tangent I'm trying to avoid.

Im arguing equivalency. Which is the assumption you're talking about here. How is that a seperate tangent? Back then, the NPO didn't actively try to ruin the [ooc]game.[/ooc]

Edited May 28, 2009 by ReturnOfChron

[Azaghul]

Couple of points:

- Terms don't matter as much as winning the war decisively, something that those fighting NPO have made clear they desire to do in not letting NPO get peace while they keep a very large amount of strength in peace mode.

- NPO is gonna want to come back for revenge regardless.

- NPO's power relied a lot more now than it did then on its political connections because the strength in the game is spread between so many different alliances now. Those political connections will be a lot tougher to rebuild and everyone will know what they are up to making it even more difficult.

- The days of invasion alliances coming in and quickly establishing themselves as powers are over.

- There's no massive aid exploit for NPO to use this time. While a lot of the strength can be rebuilt quickly into the middle ranks because of leftover wonders, improvements, and warchests, a lot of it is gonna take a very long time to rebuild during which time the competitors will largely have used to build even bigger.

- NPO will most likely be getting terms that will be large enough to have a noticeable impact on their growth.

[Cirrus]

Look, everyone needs to recognize something here. If you give NPO light terms they are going to build up quickly and come back for revenge. If you give them heavy terms they are going to build up less quickly and come back for revenge.

This should be obvious to everyone.

The only rational courses of action are to either continue the war in perpetuity or find terms that permanently neuter NPO's ability to exact revenge. The two best suggestions I have seen for that are to

1) Limit NPO's freedom to sign treaties, or

2) Require NPO to remain below a certain total nation strength or score ranking.

And no, extremely tough terms to end the war for NPO do not violate the spirit of Karma. Tough terms for one alliance is not the same as tough terms for everyone. The message would be that the punishment fits the crime.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Cirrus

[CRexx]

I find some of this revisionist history kind of laughable in a sense when you reflect on them. Both sides were angling for GWI. You had previous bad blood from the Polar Wars, you had both sides planting spies in each other, trying to manufacture incidents and a casus belli and all that. One side won, one side didn't. Yet now people look back on the Great Wars as wars of NPO aggression.

I think the real bitterness comes from the fact the NPO decisively ended Great War era following GWII and GWIII, with the virtual destruction of LUE, the massive terms laid against the Legion and the fact that WUT pretty much tore up the battlefield. People are bitter not because they lost, but because the NPO took away their favorite toy, a Great War on a fairly regular schedule (OOC: Christmas Break, Summer Break and maybe something over Turkey Day for the heck of it).

The other amusing irony was Aegis's plans for victory in GWIII called for the Orders to face crippling peace terms when we won (yeah Aegis command thought it was going to win, right up until we saw the Legion's failure of an update blitz). Some elements of Aegis were even aiming to force the disbandment of the Orders. So then Aegis loses, the NAAC disbands, whatever was left of LUE was finished off and GATO and the Legion get crushed with terms.

So then various Aegis commanders are out there crying "Waaaa, look at us, us poor martyrs, look the NPO is evil." When two weeks before there were in the Aegis command channels laughing about how hard they were going to put the screws in the NPO and arguing over if we should force the Orders to disband or make them become perma-tech farmers for the next year or two.

*This is in no way meant to suggest that the NPO's policies in any period have been sweetness and light. Merely to suggest that the other side hasn't exactly been the hallmark of sweetness and light.

[Cirrus]

snip

tl;dr - You have to win if you want to make policy.

[Pingu]

Much of the analysis here, of history and the present, falls into the easy fallacy of positing two 'sides' when there have rarely been two sides on Bob - there are always many interests, visions, goals etc. The parties to the conflict in the Great Stupid War (commonly known as GW I) were not the same as the parties in subsequent multi-alliance wars, let alone the current conflagration.