The Phoenix Federation Announcement

[Vol Navy]

I'm not in TPF gov.

I left the alliance the night the announcement went up that we were dropping the treaty with NPO because I didn't want to be a part of us not honoring our treaty in that fashion even if Pacifica had messed up.

Within 5 minutes of my resigning several gov members had PM'd me that we were indeed planning on going to war inspite of the treaty cancellation, so I returned to the alliance.

There really are a lot of details about the whole situation that aren't known by many here and even if they were it wouldn't change a single mind.

TPF is one of the bad guys of the hour. Trolled regardless of what is announced. Such is life on Bob.

[Ivan Moldavi]

How did this nice conversation about TPF selectively being honorable turn into a conversation on Karma? Karma didn't declare on Molon Labe. TPF didn't declare on Karma (at least not in this thread).

If Karma is demanding alliances disband then they should be laughed out and walked out on in any negotiation. There shouldn't even be any discussion on the issue.

I fail to see why it needs to be discussed here.

Good and bad are relative. The "woe is me" crap spawned from your bad political decisions is getting a bit old.

[JBone]

If what KingSuck said was true, why did members of alliances that cancelled on the NPO leave and create their own alliance to fight for the NPO after those cancellations? If, as you and KingSuck claim, you were always going to come to the NPO's aid, then why would mhawk and others have left to fight with Pacifica?

mhawk you know you completely failed to address this point, correct?

Since mhawk has taken his leave of this thread, I hope you won't mind if I try and shed some light on this and answer Tygas question, at least as far as TPF is concerned.

I think I can, as it was the very same question I asked of mhawk when I awoke and read of the events that transpired that evening, both on this forum and TPFs private forums.

When news of the DoW by TORN and NPO became known to TPF, there were the normal questions......when do we go, who do we hit, etc...

It was no secret that the world was headed for war and we were fine with that. Some members had concerns and voiced them to government....I'm sledding, my warchest sux, I have tech deals in the works, whatever they were told, take care of business....we are a go in less than 24 hours.

Shortly after, folks begin to hear wispers of peace negotiations, TORN is not aware of any.....and woody does his thing....now a whole new set of question are being asked, quite the wtf moment. Many, both inside and outside of TPF, are confused, hurt, angry...how could NPO do such a thing, is this who we want to stand next to in battle, what the hell are we gonna do.

Despite what some like to point out as mindless public hailing, these kinds of discussions go on all the time....behind closed doors, it's one of the reasons you have governments.

Mhawk, and I mean this with all due respect, interprets these questions and concerns as lack of commitment to NPO, our oldest treatied ally. He also is not happy with the idea of cancelling our individual NPO treaty along with the other Q members. Being young (aren't you all), brash and unwavering in his commitment, flys off the handle, reforms E, declares support for NPO.

All of these events happpen at light speed, adding to the confusion. Many, if not all, of TPF non sleeping government go to mhawk and are like...dude, relax, we are with you and with NPO, we don't like the way things went down, we vented and now we are back to when do we go in and who do we hit. We can deal with our concerns after the war.

Realising his actions were rash, mhawk returns to TPF.....meets with the other Q members and decides to re-sign our treaty with NPO, follow our commitments and lead TPF to war.

Was all of this pretty....no, was it one big clusterfark...hell yes, but we always intended to do the right thing.

Please feel free to begin with the spin crap....

Christ, in the time it took me to write this, many more posts have appeared....I hope this answers some of them...long day is long.

Edit: damn you speelcheck.

Edited April 29, 2009 by JBone

[Druid]

I didn't prove anything. I'm just done with the circles. Now is the time to fight.

I wasn't aware forum posts destroyed infrastructure. Who knew.

[Vol Navy]

So, you have no evidence and now walk out citing that I am being unreasonable for not accepting your word when all evidence suggests you are wrong? Wow.

You have no proof that Karma is demanding alliances disband, you just repeat the lie as fact in the hope people believe it. Your call to do that but lets not kid ourselves about what you are doing.

From what I've saw so far the terms are very fair. We will see if they hold up across the spectrum of the war.

There are no clear leaders of Karma at this point. For whatever reason people in Karma seem to want to keep that in the shadows.

I have saw posts from members of several alliances on the Karma side who have asked for harsher terms for NPO, TPF, and Valhalla in particular. Generally saying things like these alliances should never be allowed to recover from this war.

I assume they don't speak for their Gov or for whomever would be considered Karma representatives.

But with no official statements out there to my knowledge, the attitude of the general membership of those alliances seem to point towards wanting the complete and lasting destruction of the NPO at the very minimum.

[Tygaland]

I'm not in TPF gov.

I left the alliance the night the announcement went up that we were dropping the treaty with NPO because I didn't want to be a part of us not honoring our treaty in that fashion even if Pacifica had messed up.

Within 5 minutes of my resigning several gov members had PM'd me that we were indeed planning on going to war inspite of the treaty cancellation, so I returned to the alliance.

There really are a lot of details about the whole situation that aren't known by many here and even if they were it wouldn't change a single mind.

TPF is one of the bad guys of the hour. Trolled regardless of what is announced. Such is life on Bob.

OK, but one of the people that left TPF was your leader. You realise what that shows?

[JBone]

OK, but one of the people that left TPF was your leader. You realise what that shows?

Youth, inexperience with forceful personalities, brashness?

I will take a leader who owns up to a mistake, and gets on with things, any day of the week.

[deathcat]

Well put JB.. pretty much to the point. I leave this thread as I know this will go nowhere fast.

oo/ TPF, Mhawk and crew

[Vol Navy]

OK, but one of the people that left TPF was your leader. You realise what that shows?

I can only go by the reaction in our IRC channel when Mhawk made his announcement. It was generally stunned surprise.

As JBone said, it was a clusterfark.

I'm not privy to what went on in upper gov but among the general membership there was unhappiness that NPO acted the way it did in regards to the TORN situation since they are also an ally, but still a desire to uphold our end of the treaty and enter the fight.

Unfortunately things were happening faster than could be communicated to the general membership and that's why I resigned and returned about 10 minutes later after being assured that we were indeed going to honor our treaty.

My nation will be wrecked at the end of this but hey, that's life. If this side does indeed fall and terms are such that I can rebuild, I will, if they are such that I cannot (and I really have no reason to think they will be so harsh) I'll fight on until I'm kept at ZI and can't fight any longer.

[JBone]

I can only go by the reaction in our IRC channel when Mhawk made his announcement. It was generally stunned surprise.

As JBone said, it was a clusterfark.

I'm not privy to what went on in upper gov but among the general membership there was unhappiness that NPO acted the way it did in regards to the TORN situation since they are also an ally, but still a desire to uphold our end of the treaty and enter the fight.

Unfortunately things were happening faster than could be communicated to the general membership and that's why I resigned and returned about 10 minutes later after being assured that we were indeed going to honor our treaty.

My nation will be wrecked at the end of this but hey, that's life. If this side does indeed fall and terms are such that I can rebuild, I will, if they are such that I cannot (and I really have no reason to think they will be so harsh) I'll fight on until I'm kept at ZI and can't fight any longer.

Vol, you, and many others in TPF like you, are why we will always be here. o7

[Sargun II]

/me is about 24 hours late

However, I do like the OP. Very nicely done.

[Tygaland]

Youth, inexperience with forceful personalities, brashness?

I will take a leader who owns up to a mistake, and gets on with things, any day of the week.

But he would not have left had he believed that TPF was going to defend the NPO. That being my point.

[edikroma]

OK, but one of the people that left TPF was your leader. You realise what that shows?

It shows that since you weren't in the gov channel at the time, you don't know what happened.

Well, while we were all upset with NPO, the general membership, along with government felt that the right thing to do was to stick by our allies (not just NPO). We knew that the Horde would focus on TPF, IRON, MCXA or anyone of the Hegemony next anyway. So rather than simply running to fight another day, we in gov refused to accept mhawk's resignation and voted unanimously for mobilization against the Horde.

mhawk left because he wanted to uphold his promises to NPO and Hegemony, and he didn't want to drag in an alliance that didn't feel the same way he did. A feeling that was, in fact, incorrect.

EDIT:

I don't have any logs of the convo, but I think TPF government voted to mobilize within 15 minutes of the announcement. We talked to the general membership as well as our protectorates and received unanimous support for the decision.

Personally, I would say mhawk based his decision on a very emotional and very angry membership and government response. I will admit, I was torn between defending NPO, and letting them take punishment for seeking peace behind Hegemony's backs.

Edited April 29, 2009 by edikroma

[Tygaland]

It shows that since you weren't in the gov channel at the time, you don't know what happened.

Well, while we were all upset with NPO, the general membership, along with government felt that the right thing to do was to stick by our allies (not just NPO). We knew that the Horde would focus on TPF, IRON, MCXA or anyone of the Hegemony next anyway. So rather than simply running to fight another day, we in gov refused to accept mhawk's resignation and voted unanimously for mobilization against the Horde.

mhawk left because he wanted to uphold his promises to NPO and Hegemony, and he didn't want to drag in an alliance that didn't feel the same way he did.

Your last sentence contradicts the rest of your post.

[edikroma]

Your last sentence contradicts the rest of your post.

I elaborated in my edit. I don't know. It's kinda difficult to pull the thoughts and decisions of other people into this post. I know what I want to say, just having a tough time putting into coherent sentences. Probably the lack of sleep...

[JBone]

But he would not have left had he believed that TPF was going to defend the NPO. That being my point.

As I said in the previous post, his interpretation of the questions and venting was not correct.

Maybe he did see it as wimping out at the time, it was not.

Mhawk himself has said as much.

When it became clear to him that he misinterpreted what was going on, he owned up and came back.

I have had some knock down, drag out venting sessions with Slayer, and I know other government has as well...it's how we do thhings....I have a feeling that was new to mhawk.

Welcome to the jungle baby.

[Vol Navy]

Your last sentence contradicts the rest of your post.

No, it shows that Mhawk had misjudged the general membership of TPF.

We, minus very few from the start of the war, are here and are fighting, usually in a 3 or 4 on 1 setting and spirits seem to be as high as ever, if not higher among the general membership.

[Tygaland]

No, it shows that Mhawk had misjudged the general membership of TPF.

We, minus very few from the start of the war, are here and are fighting, usually in a 3 or 4 on 1 setting and spirits seem to be as high as ever, if not higher among the general membership.

Actually, his sentence did contradict the rest of his post. In the first section he claimed that TPF was committed to fight for Pacifica and in the last sentence he said mhawk left so as not to drag TPF into defending Pacifica against their will.

[mhawk]

No, it shows that Mhawk had misjudged the general membership of TPF.

This would be accurate.

[JBone]

Actually, his sentence did contradict the rest of his post. In the first section he claimed that TPF was committed to fight for Pacifica and in the last sentence he said mhawk left so as not to drag TPF into defending Pacifica against their will.

Either you did not see Edis edit...or you are ignoring it and intentionally being contrary.

mhawk left because he wanted to uphold his promises to NPO and Hegemony, and he didn't want to drag in an alliance that didn't feel the same way he did. A feeling that was, in fact, incorrect.

[Tygaland]

Either you did not see Edis edit...or you are ignoring it and intentionally being contrary.

My post was in response to the original version as you are well aware.

I find it incomprehensible that an alliance leader would leave their alliance as mhawk did based on misinformation. But I realise it is to your advantage to spin it that way.

Other evidence I have seen points to this not being the case at all.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Tygaland

[RKANYZ]

OK, but one of the people that left TPF was your leader. You realise what that shows?

What's that? That our leader made a decision that was the best for our alliance, and then joined as an NPO supporter?

Our leadership made a decision after finding out the rest of Q was not going to support NPO, and wasn't going to support us if we supported NPO.

As a regular member, I will tell you that our membership was outraged, and I'm assuming most other nations in Q were also upset at this decision, and we all ended up declaring.

[JBone]

My post was in response to the original version as you are well aware.

I find it incomprehensible that an alliance leader would leave their alliance as mhawk did based on misinformation. But I realise it is to your advantage to spin it that way.

Other evidence I have seen points to this not being the case at all.

There we go.....spin and mysterious "other evidence", perhaps we should make that, any TPF related threads, official Godwin.

....with that I take my leave as well.

[Tygaland]

What's that? That our leader made a decision that was the best for our alliance, and then joined as an NPO supporter?

Our leadership made a decision after finding out the rest of Q was not going to support NPO, and wasn't going to support us if we supported NPO.

As a regular member, I will tell you that our membership was outraged, and I'm assuming most other nations in Q were also upset at this decision, and we all ended up declaring.

You are contradicting the rest of your members here. And in the process supporting what I was saying. Thanks.

[Tygaland]

There we go.....spin and mysterious "other evidence", perhaps we should make that, any TPF related threads, official Godwin.

....with that I take my leave as well.

I wasn't aware the other evidence was mysterious. Ask your fellow Continuum members about an MCXA-led meeting rallying everyone back to defending the NPO. I wonder if that now "didn't happen" too.