Statement on My Banning

[Sumeragi]

I have been given the blessing of one of the RP mods for this post.

Charge: Trying to bribe Sargun with money and tech in order to keep the territory.

Plead: Not Guilty

Statement: It seems there are two issues that have come up with my offer to buy Sargun’s Russian territory with IG tech. Those are:

(1) One may not use IG resources to influence nations, either IG-wise or RP-wise

(2) My offer to buy land was a bribe

I contest both issues with the following reasons.

(1) There has been instances of using IG resources in connection to RP, as the following shows:

Such instances (and many others) show that the use of IG resources are not against any CN rules, or at least is tolerable.

(2) My offer to buy land was a bribe.

I would admit that the first PM I sent to Sargun concerning this issue might have had the implications of bribing him to get off the hook. HOwever, I was short on time then, and rushed the PM. A SECOND PM that I sent the next day should have cleared up what I meant, which was that I want to buy the Russian territory. I would like Sargun to post the PMs, if he still has them.

Now, it seems we have a different interpertation of the rules, and I am willing to go by them. However, given the differences in previous rulings (or misinformation, depending on how you look at it), I feel that the ban is too heavy a punishment, given my relatively clean Rping history (aside from the torture incident). I hope for a lenient judging.

Sincerely yours,

Sumeragi

[LeVentNoir]

No IG resources will be used to pay for RP actions. It should not be allowed.

Also, first example is flawed, it was you then too.

Edited April 19, 2009 by LeVentNoir

[Margrave]

No IG resources will be used to pay for RP actions. It should not be allowed.

Also, first example is flawed, it was you then too.

Now this is a different matter entirely. There is no established ruling on this, so how can you punish someone for something that hasn't been clarified?

I'm interested to hear what HK47 has to say on this.

[Lord Frost]

Examples/statement don't work:

1. Both offers were accepted (except for the bohovia contract which I interrupted), validating both actions as consensual and therefore legit

2. in neither example was a Mod involved

3. You were part of example 1

4.

given my relatively clean Rping history

---- Do you really think it is wise to make jokes in an Appeal to the Mods?

5. You tried to bribe a GM and he refused your bribe, ironically enacting the "One may not use IG resources to influence nations, either IG-wise or RP-wise". Rather then report you to the Forum Mods, Sargun instead took GM action instead, which should be within his right given the circumstances.

by making this thread you just confessed to breaking forum rules.....

Edited April 19, 2009 by Lord Frost

[Botha]

I see no problem with using in-game resources for RP so long as it is transparent and known to all. In the past I myself have given out in-game foreign aid to reflect RP'ed actions. Last year I paid Cherokee Namibia $3,000,000 to move his in-game and RP capital out of South Africa and into an area of territory which I relinquished to him.

Mind you, GM's are suppose to be impartial - so yeah bribing is probably not a good thing. Dirt on your face and reputation as an RPer from your phailbribe perhaps, but not something enough to get banned in my opinion.

[Jason the Great]

Skimming over the situation, my opinion (although as a fairly new RPer) is that Sumeragi should not be banned.

[Sumeragi]

Examples don't work:

1. Both offers were accepted (except for the bohovia contract which I interrupted), validating both actions as consensual and therefore legit

2. in neither example was a Mod involved

3. You were part of example 1

4. You tried to bribe a GM and he refused your bribe, ironically enacting the "One may not use IG resources to influence nations, either IG-wise or RP-wise". Rather then report you to the Forum Mods, Sargun instead took GM action instead, which should be within his right given the circumstances.

by making this thread you just confessed to breaking forum rules.....

I see no problem with using in-game resources for RP so long as it is transparent and known to all. In the past I myself have given out in-game foreign aid to reflect RP'ed actions. Last year I paid Cherokee Namibia $3,000,000 to move his in-game and RP capital out of South Africa and into an area of territory which I relinquished to him.

Mind you, GM's are suppose to be impartial - so yeah bribing is probably not a good thing. Dirt on your face and reputation as an RPer from your phailbribe perhaps, but not something enough to get banned in my opinion.

About this "bribing a GM" things: I always see GMs are players, and only when they need to rule things are they viewed as GMs in my book. The offer I made to Sargun was as a player, not a GM.

I always see GMs as players until their enlightened judgement is needed to solve the bickerings of players.

Edited April 19, 2009 by Sumeragi

[Bacharth]

1. Relatively clean RP history? You've been accused of godmoding since day 1.

You've been accused of xenophobia.

You've been accused of everything under the sun.

From day one, everyone has been on your case about everything. You have never been let up on, and the one excuse people can see to ban you, they jump on it like a clean, naked woman laying spread eagle on an aircraft carrier. Sure, the first example involved you. But the second? Sure it was interrupted, but it was attempted. You're saying you won't arrest for an ATTEMPTED murder?

Sure, I'm for Sumer, only because banning her takes all the interest out of this RP, and when you almost took Martens out, this RP would have degraded into "We agree with this".

Honestly, you guys don't like her.

I want every single one of you that do to admit that you hate Sumeragi, and I won't say another word.

Edited April 19, 2009 by VinceSixx

[Sumeragi]

A request: Can someone PM Mercy and HK47 to see this thread? Need to get off

[Botha]

The offer I made to Sargun was as a player, not a GM

Any deals made with a GM are always going to come under the question of "conflict of interest - yes/no?". However if it were made as one player to another player, then regardless what one thinks about bribing then I don't see anything wrong. If she was bribing to affect something third-party, then perhaps.

I admit that I'm not a huge fan of Sumeragi - but so long as it was not an actual GM ruling she was trying to affect, then I don't think she should be banned.

they jump on it like a clean, naked woman laying spread eagle on an aircraft carrier.

pure win statement

[Sargun II]

The issue is not the land - other plays have paid IG money for land and I see it as an extension just paying in RP. If they want to waste money, go ahead. The issue is that I would have needed to make a GM decision based on the payment - something incredibly unacceptable. I would have had to reversed what had happened, put your lock on and still change your lands. If this was just a matter of "hey let's work out a deal" and we could RP me buying you land and you sent tech, yeah I'd feel more comfortable.

You saw it as using money to influence a player decision, which I find perfectly legal and I saw it as having to use money to influence a GM decision.

Either way, I didn't think that the mods needed to be bothered by something so plainly trivial, especially with all these war rumors.

[Sumeragi]

The issue is not the land - other plays have paid IG money for land and I see it as an extension just paying in RP. If they want to waste money, go ahead. The issue is that I would have needed to make a GM decision based on the payment - something incredibly unacceptable. I would have had to reversed what had happened, put your lock on and still change your lands. If this was just a matter of "hey let's work out a deal" and we could RP me buying you land and you sent tech, yeah I'd feel more comfortable.

So in other words, my request for a lock, which was supposed to mean that I will not accept any wars and spying against my nation (a more uptight version of Botha) was a major reason for the "bribe to influence a mod" charge? Sort of a leap of logic in my view, but understandable.

But then, my second pm did state it in the "hey let's work out a deal" way, no?

Either way, I didn't think that the mods needed to be bothered by something so plainly trivial, especially with all these war rumors.

What are the roles of the gameplay mods?

Plus, being wiped from the map doesn't seem that trivial, in the world of CNRP.

Edited April 19, 2009 by Sumeragi

[comrade nikonov]

note: for example 2 I was in mild danger of being bill locked, and never got the money anyways

[Subtleknifewielder]

Well, even if she was involved in the first example, it WAS an example. I really don;t see the issue here, as I do not see an attempt at bribery.

And I agree with her in that being wiped from the map is hardly trivial.

[iamthey]

I know this isn't really the main issue, however I don't see how there is anything wrong with using IG resources to influence RP actions. RP is basically a reflection of what is done IG, while some hold to this very conservatively as botha does and only RP what is done IG, others tend to do this more liberally as I do by RPing based on my own stats, and military size but allowing content to be out of game. Backing up RP money with IG money would actually give the transaction some weight and truly make RP monetary exchanges worth something. Moreover if the problem is it isn't fair, then I don't see how that is the case; in real life more established larger nations always have more financial resources than smaller nations. So if a large nation can afford sending fifteen million to a person for land which is RP'd as 15 billion then whats the issue that's exactly as it would be in reality? Now frankly I haven't seen the Pm's themselves so maybe it was phrased as an OOC bribe to get sargun to take GM action in which case a ban is warranted, but if it was really just intended as an IC appeal to sargun as an RPer then it really shouldn't be considered bribery. GM's serve a dual post, as a GM and as a player; a distinction can and should be made based off of Sumeragi's intent.

[Sargun II]

I'm not overturning the ban.

Even if you claim it isn't meant as I took it, how am I supposed to know that? All I know is that you offered me in-game tech and the actions that I needed to take involved me having to do a GM action. Those are the facts, I'm taking the facts and the facts only.

I remember a while back when Snape said that mods weren't getting involved and we would have to deal with this stuff ourselves. Unless that's changed, this is over.

[HK47]

I'm over turning this ruling on a couple of reasons.

Firstly, I've said it before and I'll say it again - GM's should not be banning people.

I feel a warning would have sufficed in this situation.

Secondly Sargun could have asked for clarification.

Thirdly, let this be a warning to all you meatbags, please make any intentions clear when dealing with this kind of thing.