A joint GRAN/TGE announcement

[erikz]

Who ARE you, anyway? I mean, you can't be politically unknown and have valid arguments. It's just not possible.

That wasnt my point there bro. Talking crap about an alliance in one of its public announcements is just not done. If you disagree with eachoter, use irc and have a few convo's.

Thats how things get solved.

EDIT: Denglish sucks

Edited March 16, 2009 by erikz

[Captain Flinders]

That wasnt my point there bro. Talking crap about an alliance in one of its public announcements is just not done. If you disagree with eachoter, use irc and have a few convo's.

Thats how things get solved.

That's how things are solved if an alliance wants to save face. Unfortunately, this thread is likely the worst idea if saving face is the ultimate goal. TGE's involvement in my owing GRAN is completely null and therefore subject to question in this thread.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Captain Flinders

[Vijaya]

Two alliances calling foul for completely unrelated claims does not lend credibility to your case. Though again I'll ask you, what does my debt to GRAN have anything to do with TGE?

It points to the sort of character one is dealing with when they meet you. As for your debt to GRAN, the way I see it is that if we had taken you out of your misery rather than letting you mosey over to GRAN, they would never have had to deal with you and your shenanigans.

My job while on the Senate of TGE was to propose legislation that I believed beneficial to the alliance. My reasoning was displayed in a very long post and explained over and over again when questioned. If you fail to see the reasoning then it is for your own lack of comprehension or reading.

The post was indeed very long, and despite your continuing to bang on about this, absolutely nobody agreed with you. You had seemingly decided that TGE should drop the treaty in question and then presented specious arguments to justify your proposition; your explanations consisted of nothing more than repeating the same tortured and illogical arguments, which is why even after all that, nobody agreed with you.

Come on Valdemar. That is a lie. I was let free from TGE by the Kaiser and you yourself told me that you didn't want me attacked anyway. GRAN did not negotiate my freedom. All they did was check with you to ensure I was not subject to attack.

If you doubt that the Kaiser and I both act in consultation with Government in everything we do, you are sorely mistaken. Since you were party to no conversations between GRAN government and me, between the Kaiser and me, or internal conversations amongst TGE government in this regard, you know nothing of what went into the decisions that were made, and remain blissfully unaware of what could have happened to you. GRAN stuck up for you time and time again when they could have abandoned you to a well-deserved ZI. Have you no gratitude whatsoever?

Flinders, you should come with a warning label. "Prolonged exposure may lead to confusion, dizzness, nausea and headaches."

[Captain Flinders]

It points to the sort of character one is dealing with when they meet you.

I suppose it does speak to my character. A character that wanted to see sweeping change in TGE in hope of bettering the people. A character that could not stay in GRAN while he was tossed aside and belittled and one who after showing interest in leaving could not bear to bow to the outrageous demands of tyrants who would alter their very own charter to get more money out of him. I suppose it does speak to my character Valdemar, but not in the way you believe.

The post was indeed very long, and despite your continuing to bang on about this, absolutely nobody agreed with you. You had seemingly decided that TGE should drop the treaty in question and then presented specious arguments to justify your proposition; your explanations consisted of nothing more than repeating the same tortured and illogical arguments, which is why even after all that, nobody agreed with you.

Seriously Valdemar, enough with the lying. I know for a fact that Kurtz supported me (and another I cannot seem to remember) and the poll in the government section was tied 3/3 (or 4/4 I cannot remember) for some time. Regardless, you brought up my work in TGE in an attempt to bring my character into question but you have failed in doing so as anyone with a sense of rationality can see that my work in TGE (and TGE in general for that matter) has nothing to do with my debt to GRAN.

If you doubt that the Kaiser and I both act in consultation with Government in everything we do, you are sorely mistaken.

The Kaiser told me I was free to go. You told me I was free to go. I fail to see how GRAN could have possibly negotiated for the freedom of a free man. That is, of course, unless TGE didn't intend to stand by their word not to attack me. Which I suppose would make sense but I don't think we want the nice people of CN knowing that the government of TGE would even consider going back on their word now would we?

[General Miller]

o/ WAR

[Steinfeld]

LOL to peace mode, flinders. LOL....

LOL I SAY

Edited March 16, 2009 by Steinfeld

[boscher]

o/ TGE give flinders what he deserves

[Timmmehhh]

That Captain flinders guy sure sounds like an unreliable person with his alliance hopping and refusing to pay back aid debt.

Good luck to TGE and GRAN punishing him.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Timmehhh

[Akama]

After looking over some of the evidence, I don't really see GRAN as too trustworthy.

Good luck to Captain Flinders in finding a way out of this mess.

[Bernkastel]

Right and reputation is so important to you lets recap..

1. You tried to coup TGE gov.

2. You are a rerroll of a very unpopular person

3. You stole 60 million from GRAN.

Wow nice track record there, let me guess you are trying to become the first person in CN to be on every single alliance ZI list right ?

1. He tried to overthrow TGE's government a couple months ago. So what? What's in the past is in the past, this is just revenge on TGE's part

2. He is a reroll of a very unpopular person. So what? What's in the past is in the past, this is just grasping at straws for a valid CB. Which you don't have.

3. Stole $60million from GRAN. He said he'll pay it back and you know, judging by what I've seen from him around here, he seems respectable and worthy of a chance. $60mil, if its even that amount which I highly doubt it, won't be very easy to pay back.

Such pathetic excuses... tsk tsk. I think TGE and GRAN just need more negative publicity. Good job.

Best of luck, Flinders.

[janax]

Whatever anyone chooses to believe is, of course, up to them. However, the fact that you have two previously unassociated alliances calling foul on the same individual might point to the truth that lies behind decisions we have made.

Are you implying Argent has something to do with Captain Flinders? That is how I read it, and I don't care for the implication.

I would speak up no matter who the situation was turned on, I don't know much about Flinders, and what I do see on the OWF, I'm not a huge fan of.

But, let's look at it this way, SOMEONE had him sanctioned, and sentenced to ZI less than 24 hours after he leaves the alliance, for owing 60 million (a figure he disputes) and not resigning in the proper manner. Permi-Zi is my guess, based on the re-roll comment. You (collective YOU, not you inparticular) obviously didn't care about the money, you just wanted to attack him, because he can't pay once sanctioned and lord knows anyone showing him proof of what he owes is beyond the norm. One should always just take whatever the other person says as the gospel truth in determining debts, right?

You put it out here instead of just handling it quietly, like most alliances do. Expect commentary, and if the notorious TGE "justice" system can't handle a little commentary, re-think it.

[Steinfeld]

After looking over some of the evidence, I don't really see GRAN as too trustworthy.

Good luck to Captain Flinders in finding a way out of this mess.

Here is where the kicker is for us, members of GRAN.

When you take money (APP money to get nuclear weapons) from the alliance (this is alliance money from just about all the nuclear nations) and then leave, where it states that you need to pay back the money (being 60 million) and you do not, that is unacceptable behavior, and we will not have this.

[Steinfeld]

1. He tried to overthrow TGE's government a couple months ago. So what? What's in the past is in the past, this is just revenge on TGE's part

2. He is a reroll of a very unpopular person. So what? What's in the past is in the past, this is just grasping at straws for a valid CB. Which you don't have.

3. Stole $60million from GRAN. He said he'll pay it back and you know, judging by what I've seen from him around here, he seems respectable and worthy of a chance. $60mil, if its even that amount which I highly doubt it, won't be very easy to pay back.

Such pathetic excuses... tsk tsk. I think TGE and GRAN just need more negative publicity. Good job.

Best of luck, Flinders.

How is none of that relevant. He did not say he would pay the 60 million back. he said he would pay 33 million back. 33 does not equal 60. judging by what i have seen, you have not seen very much.

[erikz]

That's how things are solved if an alliance wants to save face. Unfortunately, this thread is likely the worst idea if saving face is the ultimate goal. TGE's involvement in my owing GRAN is completely null and therefore subject to question in this thread.

I don't see why it is. You try to make yourself relevant, everywhere, no matter what. It would be nice if you would stop doing that and threads like this wouldn't be necessary anymore.

[Bernkastel]

How is none of that relevant. He did not say he would pay the 60 million back. he said he would pay 33 million back. 33 does not equal 60. judging by what i have seen, you have not seen very much.

It's all relevant, since those are the reasons Flinders is being ZIed. All 3 of which make no real sense or valid.

$33mil is better than nothing. I'd take it, personally.

[Steinfeld]

It's all relevant, since those are the reasons Flinders is being ZIed. All 3 of which make no real sense or valid.

$33mil is better than nothing. I'd take it, personally.

Those three reasons combines are reason enough. the bank does not take 33 mil if thats what YOU think you owe, the bank takes everything you are worth. That is what we are doing. We will not settle for petty negotiations to try and figure out a price that is good for the criminal.

[erikz]

It's all relevant, since those are the reasons Flinders is being ZIed. All 3 of which make no real sense or valid.

$33mil is better than nothing. I'd take it, personally.

So, if you loan $20,000 to someone, you'd be happy with a $10,000 in return and forget the other half?

IC or OOC, making a deal means you have to pay back your debts, no matter what.

Please sir, let me loan some money from you.

Edited March 16, 2009 by erikz

[Bernkastel]

Those three reasons combines are reason enough. the bank does not take 33 mil if thats what YOU think you owe, the bank takes everything you are worth. That is what we are doing. We will not settle for petty negotiations to try and figure out a price that is good for the criminal.

$33mil or the destruction of a 15k NS nation.

Hm, I think $33mil would be better, personally. Seems more beneficial than destroying a nation and wasting time.

I guess I'm a criminal too, since I took about $39-45mil from DefCon to build and work on getting an MP, but I did promise to pay it all back in due time but DefCon merged into TOOL so I couldn't really repay DefCon itself. I'm also a reroll. I tried to overthrow a foreign alliance government.

Wow, we have so much in common Flinders!

[Timmmehhh]

Ah my poor Captain Flinders, I did the best for you, I really did.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1224677

:lol:

[Akama]

How is none of that relevant. He did not say he would pay the 60 million back. he said he would pay 33 million back. 33 does not equal 60. judging by what i have seen, you have not seen very much.

Captain Flinders says he didn't recieve $60 million, and I'll continue to believe he only owed $33 million back until someone shows me evidence that Flinders recieved $60 million.

Also, changing your charter so members wishing to leave have to pay back twice what they were given is not cool.

[Bernkastel]

So, if you loan $20,000 to someone, you'd be happy with a $10,000 in return and forget the other half?

I'd be willing to negotiate that as a settlement, especially if that person fell on hard times.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Balsamic Vinegar

[erikz]

Captain Flinders says he didn't recieve $60 million, and I'll continue to believe he only owed $33 million back until someone shows me evidence that Flinders recieved $60 million.

Also, changing your charter so members wishing to leave have to pay back twice what they were given is not cool.

So, you would make screenshots of every package of aid your alliance is sending? Im sure thats not the way GRAN rolls and it shouldn't be the way to roll at all. This is all about trust, and about trusting to get all of your investments back in the exact way that was agreed to by both parties before even entering said deal.

Edited March 16, 2009 by erikz

[erikz]

I'd be willing to negotiate that as a settlement, especially if that person fell on hard times.

Even if someone betrayed you and ran off with only half the money returned to its righteous owner?

Don't get me wrong, this is a smart scam.

[Captain Flinders]

Here is where the kicker is for us, members of GRAN.

When you take money (APP money to get nuclear weapons) from the alliance (this is alliance money from just about all the nuclear nations) and then leave, where it states that you need to pay back the money (being 60 million) and you do not, that is unacceptable behavior, and we will not have this.

How is none of that relevant. He did not say he would pay the 60 million back. he said he would pay 33 million back. 33 does not equal 60. judging by what i have seen, you have not seen very much.

I'm not sure how much of my conversations with outworld have been shared with you so let's get something clear. In my talks with outworld, he said I owed 60 million. I asked for proof of this and none was supplied. If such proof exists, I beg it be presented and my payments begin. I even told outworld that. 33 million is my reasonable estimation of what I owe. Even though I believe GRAN is gouging me for 60 million, I have agreed to pay it on multiple occasions. So let's be clear here so this doesn't become confusing again. I was/am willing to work on a payment plan with GRAN. I have shown no hostilities to GRAN at any time.

I don't see why it is. You try to make yourself relevant, everywhere, no matter what. It would be nice if you would stop doing that and threads like this wouldn't be necessary anymore.

I never tried to make myself relevant. I took the behind the scenes and rather quiet job of organizing tech within GRAN. It was certainly not I who made this thread so if you have a problem with people making threads about stuff that the CN public probably doesn't care about, talk to the thread creator.

I do thank those people who have either requested the evidence of my claims or shown support here. Once someone looks a little further than the OP I believe it is easy to see discrepancies in both TGE and GRAN's actions up to this point. I am still confident that through patience and cooperation that a settlement can be reached.

[janax]

we track every aid package sent to members, if it is part of any aid that would be expected to be paid back f they were to leave suddenly, forexample, after a push for to develop nuclear weapons.

You want to make sure you bill them properly afterall.