NEW NATION strength calculations

[enderland]

Right, so the same is true for the other nations who already have nukes. They too can purchase that amount of tech daily.

Except if you look around at nations in the 37k NS range, you will find that the VAST majority are not purchasing much tech. In fact, about 20% of the ones I looked at were buying any significant amount of tech (about 30 nations total that I looked at in the 4.6-4.7% mark). Meaning: if you are at 5% you WILL pass them soon if you use all your aid slots to buy tech.

Because you can attack someone half your size, which tends to be the case in most wars.

So then should nations at 19k NS be allowed to buy nukes too because someone can attack them who can buy nukes?

I wonder why.. :lol:

Probably because they find it worthwhile to buy nukes instead of reaping the economic benefits of not having them?

[Viluin]

Probably because they find it worthwhile to buy nukes instead of reaping the economic benefits of not having them?

And why the MP?

[enderland]

And why the MP?

Probably because they find it worthwhile to buy nukes instead of reaping the economic benefits of not having them?

[Viluin]

Probably because they find it worthwhile to buy nukes instead of reaping the economic benefits of not having them?

You know full well what my point is.

[Ski11585]

Notice how Blacky ignored my post. Just compare the efficiency ratings, you'll be surprised.

[enderland]

Notice how Blacky ignored my post. Just compare the efficiency ratings, you'll be surprised.

Any of my posts containing information in support of the nuke restriction have also been ignored.

Alas, such is the nature of e-arguing.

[Syzygy]

no, it has been said multiple times now that the difference of in NS from the additional nuke strength can be EASILY overcome with better growth (= more income) and a few additional techdeals because a LOT of top5% nations do NOT run extremely hardcore tech imports or even hold 20nukes. Everyone close to that 5% border CAN overcome the nations above him by just growing better. Its not only possible, its also very easy and likely if you just care a lot for your nation.

Edited April 21, 2008 by (DAC)Syzygy

[Boondock]

Everyone that is arguing against Blacky and the rest, forget it.

Nothing will ever be "too easy" for them apparently.

[Azaghul]

Right, so the same is true for the other nations who already have nukes. They too can purchase that amount of tech daily.

They can, but most don't, and many don't have incoming tech at all.

Really, the only argument (which was brought up by an intelligent person and then was again thrashed by me) is that nuclear nations have negative economic effects. But still it was calculated in order to make the difference purely economically through infrastructure purchase using that advantage. It would take around 1,300 infrastructure (extra) which would take around 200 or so days. (Depending on the level of Infra)

That is a big factor, but tech, wars, and people deleting will make it faster.

[Viluin]

Everyone close to that 5% border CAN overcome the nations above him by just growing better. Its not only possible, its also very easy and likely if you just care a lot for your nation.

And what about people who are not close to the border? People who have 20k NS a year from now when the top 5% has 50k or higher. They have no choice but to buy a MP because there's no way in hell they'll get free nuclear capability from the top 5% anytime soon. Just because they started playing the game at a later point in time.

Edited April 21, 2008 by Viluin

[Syzygy]

and? what has this to do with the new NS calculation? Nothing. When I started the game more than a year ago, people could reach nuclear range within 30 days. Shall we all complain now because nowadays you need half a year? Nothing of that has to do with the new NS calculation, its just the result of inflation.

[Viluin]

and? what has this to do with the new NS calculation? Nothing. When I started the game more than a year ago, people could reach nuclear range within 30 days. Shall we all complain now because nowadays you need half a year? Nothing of that has to do with the new NS calculation, its just the result of inflation.

And the new NS calculation has increased that inflation.

It's pretty obvious that the current system is just broken. Right now it might still be acceptable, but it'll keep taking longer and longer for new nations to become nuclear via the top 5%. Nearly everyone will eventually be forced to buy a Manhattan Project if they want to be nuclear capable, while the top 5% gets free nuclear capability simply because they've had more time to build their nations. It's ridiculous.

[kswiss2783]

And the new NS calculation has increased that inflation.

It's pretty obvious that the current system is just broken. Right now it might still be acceptable, but it'll keep taking longer and longer for new nations to become nuclear via the top 5%. Nearly everyone will eventually be forced to buy a Manhattan Project if they want to be nuclear capable, while the top 5% gets free nuclear capability simply because they've had more time to build their nations. It's ridiculous.

I've been playing the game long enough to earn that "free nuclear capability" that you keep saying. So what if new nations have to buy the MP? With tons of aid being given by alliances, it won't take long anyway.

[Viluin]

I've been playing the game long enough to earn that "free nuclear capability" that you keep saying. So what if new nations have to buy the MP? With tons of aid being given by alliances, it won't take long anyway.

Why have you earned something because you've had more time to build your nation? How does that make sense?

[kswiss2783]

Why have you earned something because you've had more time to build your nation? How does that make sense?

I've earned it because I've been building for so long. I didn't whine and cry like you are when I was new about not being able to get nukes. I don't get why you want to give newer players advantages so they can catch up with people who have been playing for awhile.

[Blacky]

Notice how Blacky ignored my post. Just compare the efficiency ratings, you'll be surprised.

I ignored all the irrelevant points, or points that had already been argued.

What I have been arguing, and many others is that this is a system design flaw. It's a defect in its very essence, in the same way all sanctioned alliances receiving +5 or +10 score would be.

That's irrefutable. That's an undeniable truth, as it awards nations who are already sanctioned in a way that only they can be effected. Thus the only way to "catch up" is not really to "catch up", but rather it would be to overtake them considerably. The small difference is the economic hindrance to nuclear nations.

With the 4,000 or so NS advantage nuclear nations have, it can be best calculated that to catch up a nation needs an "extra" 1,300 or so infrastructure. At that range that is a few HUNDRED days of the economic disadvantage for non-nuclear nations to "overtake" the already nuclear nations.

They just need to hope they aren't in a nuclear war during that period. Because that would mess them up quite bad. You know, not having nukes and facing a nuclear opponent.

[Viluin]

I've earned it because I've been building for so long. I didn't whine and cry like you are when I was new about not being able to get nukes. I don't get why you want to give newer players advantages so they can catch up with people who have been playing for awhile.

Because Cybernations is rapidly losing players and making things harder for new nations won't help.

[kswiss2783]

Because Cybernations is rapidly losing players and making things harder for new nations won't help.

As I have said before, the way alliances give aid, it won't take long before everyone has nukes. That isn't how the game was intended!!

[Bob Janova]

Viluin, your main point has nothing to do with this update. Because CN does not reset, older nations will always have an advantage over newer ones, because they have had more time to build stuff. That's just how games that don't reset work – and one day, CN will probably need to be reset because everyone has 'won the game'. (When ~20% of nations have all the wonders, it will be difficult to avoid without introducing some other new feature.) However, this update has not changed that at all. The top nations now do not for example have the ridiculously huge advantage that some very old players do of being allowed to control multiple nations – a new player now can reach 50k, or 5%, if they keep going; most people can never control multiple nations. Crusade against that instead.

It's actually far, far easier for a new player to grow rapidly now than a year ago. It is standard to offer $1-$3m in start-up aid now, which gives you a huge jump start (a month or two at least).

Blacky, as I showed on an earlier page you can make back the 4k in 40 days through the extra tech deals you can afford by not paying for nuclear upkeep (and I didn't even consider the cost of buying the nukes). Nations around the nuke mark don't make enough to have their slots saturated with tech, so even if all those nations had 20 nukes and were running their nations perfectly (which they don't and aren't), you can catch up to them in 40 days.

Nukes should remain exclusive, and that means based on rank, otherwise soon enough everybody would have them. The Manhattan Project provides a way for those who are too lazy or shortsighted to reach/wait for the top 5% to get them, and I have no doubt that FAN will show us how good that is for building nuclear rogues one day. If a static infra/tech limit is set, it will be overtaken like the old aircraft limit.

[Blacky]

Blacky, as I showed on an earlier page you can make back the 4k in 40 days through the extra tech deals you can afford by not paying for nuclear upkeep

That is such a distortion of the truth. Infact your statement and the truth don't even reside in the same area codes.

Without a doubt any nuclear nation can also afford that "4k tech in 40 days" just the same. The only way to make that difference would be through 1,300 or so infrastructure which I "showed" takes a few HUNDRED days.

*snip*

I'm not saying it shouldn't be exclusive Bob Janova. You continually attack a straw person, distort what I'm arguing, or just completely go on a tangent.

What I'm saying is that this is a design flaw. Would you think giving sanctioned nations +5 score was a design flaw? Surely. This is almost exactly the same in this case.

Edited April 22, 2008 by Blacky

[enderland]

Without a doubt any nuclear nation can also afford that "4k tech in 40 days" just the same.

Except they don't.

[Azaghul]

Blacky, you keep ignoring the fact that even if most nuclear nations could afford to use all slots for buying tech, most don't use all slots or even most of their slots for that purpose, either because of the expense (even if they can pay for it, it's still a drain), the effort required to find sellers, use of their slots for other things (such as part of their alliance's bank), or because they think they have enough tech.

Also Viluin, why shouldn't older players have an advantage? In nearly every nation simulator or other game such as this your stats and improve as you play, and if you keep playing well newer players won't be able to catch up with you. The only way to avoid that would be for the game to reset or your nation not grow any stronger after a certain period of time.

Edited April 22, 2008 by Azaghul

[Bob Janova]

Without a doubt any nuclear nation can also afford that "4k tech in 40 days" just the same.

It's not 4k tech, it's 800 tech. If you go back and read my post you will see that a non-nuclear nation can afford 800 tech more than a nuclear one over that period.

[Starcraftmazter]

So then should nations at 19k NS be allowed to buy nukes too because someone can attack them who can buy nukes?

No, but it shouldn't be as hard as it is now.

[Bob Janova]

Oh yes, also: How would you like nukes to be exclusive if not based on rank (i.e. NS)?

What I'm saying is that this is a design flaw. Would you think giving sanctioned nations +5 score was a design flaw? Surely. This is almost exactly the same in this case.

Sanctioned status does give you a score bonus – by being in the dropdown you accrete ghosts. Also, this situation is different because, unlike sanction status, nukes give you a significant in game advantage. The fair NS value of the first nuke is about 15000 NS, in terms of your war strength. And also, unlike your hypothetical, holding nukes restricts your growth and allows the other nations below you to catch up relatively quickly.