muffasamini

I'm not really sure why your attention whoring is worthy of two World Affairs threads, but I got tired of the BTA stunt. Who are you joining and dropping next? Perhaps making an ugly duckling alliance? Whatever it is, you'll probably find it a lot funnier than I do. EDIT: Oh yea, and we all know hes lying RV, please dont drag this stunt out any longer, cant we just move to the next Sileath failure?

Second

So why isnt the war over?

Are you actually in the NPO? Yet you can come around saying how we function? We accept every level of player in this game, many only want to log in once a week/day collect taxes, pay bills, and log out. Some want to experience the community of the game, but not actually work to make the alliance run. Does it make sense for us to demand they vote on every decision of the alliance? Dont be silly. The fact that our leaders administrate policy is the same as most every alliance in this game, we just actually say what were doing. If people wish to change how the NPO works, its very easy. All they have to do is get a job, in our meritocracy you can climb very quickly into a prominent position, and commit change. Or, talk to an alliance leader, and have them change something. It happens all the time. Our leaders are VERY accountable for their actions. Just because every specific rule and process we have isnt written into some grotesque charter doesnt mean that an unaccountable group is stomping on my dreams and !@#$ting out commands. And you know that the NPO wouldnt have gotten as far as it had if it did. Do you really think 600-700 people would tolerate being in a junky alliance? I've been in many alliances, and actually, I have found the NPO the easiest to attain influence over policy decisions. I have found many of the alliances I have been in contain a hard knot of maybe 3 triumvirs and 6 or so cronies with alliance roles, and everyone else is just there to chitchat and do whatever the leader tells them to. If you dont like whats going on, you leave and go to an alliance that is closer to your sensibilities. Thats not how the NPO works.

Yes we will, six months from now at best, I suspect later. But its longer than that really. It will be six months for us to clear our debt, and pay off our reps. But the rest of CN has been growing during that time, so then theres another four months of just catching up. Do you know how much this world changes in a year? Look back at where CN was only 8 months ago. Completely different world.

Please dont show mercy. Dont even think of it, show negotiation skills, the humility to realize that you may need to tweak your terms, and the graciousness to actually listen to us instead of kicking peace down our throats and shooting us in the head after we sign it. You shouldnt be afraid, actually evaluate our position, were screwed. Also, as a small point, (just struck my fancy) can I steal your sig? I dont know why personally you have it, but you can definitely guess why I would want it.

Actually I whole heartedly agree with you. Currently, I dont think we really can loose much more in order to slip off sanction, if anyone is waiting for that to happen, please dont. Thats not a matter of arrogance, I actually would love nothing more than to slip off sanction to make yall happy, its just not going to happen any time soon. We've lost all we can, we cant really lose much more.

It would be silly to GWI corrections into Karma war terms. But admission of guilt, offense, defeat, and blame have allways been a term of the surrender we are willing to accept.

I couldnt agree more.

Umm, what? LoD was a hard working member of this order, but just decided to leave in the very wrong way. He committed his guns to this alliance in times of war, and failed that committment, choosing to be a traitor. Thats all. Anyway, I bore of LoD derailments. Back to Karma, the bloc that isnt! No alliance is going to accept terms that could result in its insolvency, or are worse that what continued war would be But Cortath!? I thought that, even though its correct we were wrong to impose viceroys, we were in GATO longer than minimum to humiliate them and cripple them, not organize their reps, set up a banking system, and create the foundations of re-building?

If you believe we are denying terms, keeping us in a bloody war we are losing, for our pride, your wrong. Even the informed Karma members arent trying to say that. You just sound ignorant. Please come back with a more logical response, like "shut up and take it. These are negotiations" or "You arent growing now, but you will drop a quarter million infra minimum from mandatory war after you accept *peace terms*, so they are in your best interests" or my favorite "None of us want an eternal war, but this is a war of extinction." or maybe even "your diplomatically isolated, beat to hell, and about to pay the largest reps ever. Your going to spring back up and kill us in four months." Whatever it is, don't say pride is getting in the way of peace.

This is not a rebuttal of your efforts personally, you a very reasonable person, your just the messanger of that news. But: Since this is all conjecture, all also be vauge but I'll point out, during a negotiation, there are terms that parties decide are non-negotiable, and terms that parties decide could be bargained, harder, or softer. To my knowledge, both parties haven't set up together what aspects are non-negotiable. What I'm trying to saw is that its impossible to write a one sided comprimise. You have to talk to both parties. What happens if you raise one term in exchange for lowering another, only to find you lowered/raised the wrong term? karma needs to actually frankly, and without hate talk to us about negotiating the terms. They cant just pop up out of nowhere with a new set of terms, scream its non-negotiable and that yall hate us, and say its a compromise we turned out backs on. I know that hasnt happened, but I'm doing some extrapalation from past events here and want to warn what would be the wrong course of action.

Iagree. If we lost this war once, why would we try to fight it again, especially now that were even weaker (politically too) than we were before?

And how it will happen.

Canceling the Moldavi Doctrine was the correct thing to do, and its what you wanted. The revenge doctrine is a good thing in most sane peoples eyes (though its under mounting pressure by people who hate it because the NPO issued it) so its stayed. What else do you want? Thats not a rhetorical question.

^^ This

Karma alliances have stated repeatedly "karma is not a block" " we cant tell each other what to do" I trust I dont need to pull up the quotes, theres like 500 examples. Instead, we have to talk to each one individually, but each one doesnt have the power to speak for the group, so its pointless. If we actually manage to talk to them all, we are met with more hatred than I thought possible and they just continue to kick their ridiculous terms we've stated we cant accept down our throat.

I'd be happy to. There are a couple different Karma groups. 1. Many allianced agreed the fact that they both were against NPO, and had noticed that popular opinion was also against NPO, it was a great time to strike. As the NPO-OV troubles were brewing, they all new and agreed to stand together in the coming war, and fight NPO. They expected to lose, but they also expected to make us pay pretty severely for it. <tin-foil moment, why do you think OV was under so much pressure to not accept our comprimise and go to war?> 2. Several alliances on the fence, were aware of the OV-NPO fued, and had stated that they would support us if we could prove spying occurred, however, they were worried about how we found out that spying did indeed occur. We had foolishly of late been doing terrible at communicating with them, and placating their fears. We failed to explain our miscommunications, and we failed to usage their fears over the situation. They were tired of being not kept in the loop by us, our failing to communicate sufficiently with them, and decided to put their foot down and say no. They wouldn't be dragged into this war when we didn't treat them with enough respect for them to support us. Apologies have gone around to those, and I hope you can come to accept them. 3. Other alliances heard the e-preaching and decided to bandwagon on this brave new world. None of it had to do with "attacking during negotiations" especially when its been proved how that was a miscommunication, not mailiscousness. And those negotiations were over, they had been going on for days, and were done.

Ditching your alliance again? How shocking.

If you think that is the actual reason people on the fence went over to karma, then you have no idea how events happened.

Ha ha. Oh thats rich. You think this here is "negotiations?" You think any of this drivel here is meant to try and actually get us anywhere? Please review how real politics works and query some real alliance leaders on IRC about whats really going on.

Actually, I think I've said "I want to choke every member of Polar" and then they have responded in kind a couple times now. We kinda blew that relationship, and it isnt restarting any time soon. Please review why Grub has every reason to hate us right now, and why its such a big deal that he's speaking out against these terms, after we didn't lift a finger for Polar when this was reversed.

I'm going now, but I'll be back to respond to your canned responses with my canned responses tommorrow

Well, it may be less bad, but does that make it right? I'm not in any position to say. But I can say that its not the kind of precedent that KARMA originally set out to engender.

Again, I think your repeating yourself. All you did was switch to side B. That was your argument last week. All I'm going to say is, KARMA and CN collectively have stated that we and those complicit have done bad things. You've made it painfully clear what they are, and we are paying dearly for them. These terms are going to be harsh, because we have to pay. You will not condone EZI-ing people, taking over forums, installing dictators, forcing people to come out of peace mode, on and on. But you cant say you dont condone it, but that you'll do it "just this once I swear" to us. EDIT: @President Kuse Oh dear lord, have you not read all my other posts? I have stated continually that we have done admittedly wrong things, that we need to pay terms to atone for them, and that the NPO has to and is making huge changes to how we run. We arent noble and we lost. The point of my sarcasm is that YOU ARE REPEATING YOURSELF. We continually plead for peace, we say what it is that's going on, we say we've lost, but you continue to shut your ears and say the EXACT same post over and over again. EDIT2: I'm saving the record player one for the next person to repeat themselves without listening to anyone.