Heft

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1319816036' post='2833633'] [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=106320"]So who's speaking without knowing again?[/url] [/quote] 1) No one surrendered. 2) Those aren't the negotiations they were talking about. Also don't you have a treaty with Tetris? This is kind of a weird position for you to take.

NsO made a good showing when they entered, and I won't fault them for stepping out now. They were simply too small to make a huge difference, and the support from IAA and BTA never really materialized. I also can't fault BTA too much since they were only in to support IAA, and since IAA never got around to committing itself properly there wasn't a whole lot to support. IAA never should have entered the war, and should have left it weeks ago when it was clear the alliance was refusing to fight. We appreciate the sentiment, but quite frankly it turned out to be more trouble than it was worth. Oh well, back to fighting.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1319686535' post='2832818'] According to the IE stats by dane, NSO has lost 49.4% of its NS. Given ya'lls penchant for not wanting to include nations who have jumped in since the war began and NSO has lost 55.67% of its NS (1,339,145+122,282+899+46,673=1,508,999 then do 1,508,999/2,710,425). Legion has lost 34.1% of its NS. Not including nations who have jumped in since the war began and you have 38.15% of its NS(2,146,467+all nations with a seniority 22 days and lower). Remarkably still much lower than what NSO has lost percentage wise. And before ya'll attempt to state that NSO is much smaller, don't forget that Tetris, NsO, IAA, and BTA are also fighting Legion. So, after just over 3 weeks of fighting, NSO has lost 50% of its NS plus around 24 nations (started with 130 and not including the 3 nations who joined after the war began, so total original members are 106). I would say that yes, NSO is being rolled and it is being rolled up by Legion. NSO can claim whatever they want but stats don't really lie if you attempt to not spin them. Losing 50% of your original NS by most people's definition equals being rolled. [/quote] I've been following the alliance history charts, and we tend to lose anywhere between 50-100k NS most days. Some days less, very rarely more. That's pretty much an inevitable drop when fighting a nuclear war. Legion tends to lose a little bit more than the NSO, which makes sense since they have a little bit more strength in the actual fighting. "Rolled" implies that our opponents have some insurmountable advantage, which they clearly don't. The truth is that the war has reached a point where, if it continues as it is, we will just continue to drop nukes on each other as small nations fight and receive aid indefinitely. We'll both lose significant strength, and lose some nations as well. This is what an "even" war looks like: remarkably boring. Also, surprisingly often, we Sith don't actually bother to "spin" the truth. It's usually better to just go ahead and state the plainly evident truth whenever possible. People like to put words in our mouth and project their insecurities onto us, that's normal, but we're not the ones going out of our way to force the facts fit our desired outcome. It is amusing, though sometimes frustrating, how agitated and offended people get when you just speak honestly.

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1319610889' post='2832450'] I would like to personally congratulate NSO for taking the last step towards being rolled by absolutely everyone - even by the people who were never expected to roll anyone. You seem to win the game by continuously finding ways to lose, it's rather impressive. [/quote] No one is being "rolled." Sorry.

Grub's past mental breaks don't make the incessant whining from certain other parties any more palatable.

It is fun to watch alliances like Sparta and GOD behaving so ineffectually that they are reduced to living vicariously through The Legion, of all alliances.

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1319562542' post='2832150'] That's my boy, pound your chest, never give in. Make me a happy cat. EDIT: Word filter [/quote] It's difficult to take this sort of post seriously when you yourself are puffing out your chest throughout the last page or so of the thread, and most of the war. At least my bravado has a rational basis.

It doesn't matter what sort of surrender Legion wants to see, as they aren't in any position to request a surrender. Though it is amusing to see them still politically incompetent enough to ask for an unconditional surrender and apparently not understand what they are actually saying.

Perhaps this thread is a slight overreaction? Politely yours, Heft

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1318872645' post='2827235'] Well, that's pretty much who you are/what you do, right? I thought you Sith fellows embraced the Dark Side and whatnot. [/quote] The Dark Side shall illuminate the true path of virtue and righteousness, and in the end vindicate us all as the moral stalwarts and heroes that we have always been.

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1318834774' post='2827001'] Leave it to you to not understand a thing. [/quote] words are hard plz help me understand

I kind of just assumed this was a merger of some sort, but war works too. Have fun and whatnot. [quote name='Locke' timestamp='1318831352' post='2826963'] You know if you wanted to drive them from CN this was pretty much the worst thing you could have done. They were floundering and now you've given them purpose and their allies, optional though they may be (boy you were just waiting for that, weren't you?), will be more inclined than not to jump in against such naked aggression. Of course, I doubt good sense or strategy entered into your thought processes there. Those blue balls really hurt, don't they? [/quote] You're criticizing them for [i]not[/i] driving their enemies from the world?

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1318815338' post='2826593'] Yes, a convenient story, alleged by you, and yet one lacking in proof or perspective.[/quote] The proof is in your actions, as I've laid out repeatedly over the last few weeks. [quote]Don't even start. You had no interest in "repairing an issue". Your blatant hostility and derision, of which anyone can plainly see by looking at your memberships' posts, is quite indicative of NSO's stance.[/quote] Perhaps you need some thicker skin? [quote]Foolhardy? No. Clamoring for war? No. Tetris collaborated with a spy and posted our information and talked all sorts of !@#$. Along with NSO. As you thought the Legion wouldn't do anything, proven again by your membership's own words, there was no indication that diplomacy was a viable route. Nor a wanted one, after such a violation of acceptable behavior. There is only one path after such actions. We attacked Tetris because they posted information gained from spying.[/quote] Tetris never collaborated with a spy. They posted received information, yes. While I realize that is a heinous and unforgivable act, it's a bit different from actually spying. Yes, congratulations on doing something about it, good for you, I just care to point out that it was never about dealing with the actual spying - you still have yet to actually do anything about that. [quote]Then who did? Since you know, why don't you tell us? [/quote] I don't know. Any more nonsense questions you'd like to ask? [quote name='Unknown Smurf']Varianz admitted to orchestrating the spying. Considering he has not been kicked out of NSO we can safely assume you condone his actions. Therefore, NSO did spy on us. RV said at the time a little birdie sent him the 'gather intel' results. Considering Varianz was the source of the screenshots its not too much of a leap to say he had a hand in providing the information to RV as well. We could not prove who did the spying, so we declared on the one who shared the information obtained from spying. This eventually led to the source of the spying, who is also currently being beat on. Looks like we killed two birds with one stone.[/quote] Varianz admitted to no such thing. Don't follow Kzoppistan's example of posting unfounded nonsense. Legion has yet to find the source of the screenshots because Legion has yet to make any genuine effort to do so. You would much rather accuse us of the crime and then behave as if offended when we point out that you have no real basis for these accusations. And somehow we're the moral miscreants.

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1318813033' post='2826568'] That sounds like a remarkable amount of bull !@#$. [b]Who[/b] made that allegation? You think if we had concrete evidence that Varianz was the provider of the screenshots that we wouldn't have declared on NSO as well? What would stop us? Getting stomped? We already thought VE was coming in to counter for Tetris. It didn't matter. What sort of [i]investigation of a lead[/i] as you so put it would you have undertaken in our shoes? I believe the last time the Legion gov approached NSO about displaying spy reports, you told them to $%&@ off. Why in Admin's name would they even bother? As if you wanted any sort of diplomatic resolution, no you were content to spy, pass the reports to Tetris, and then prompt them to mock the Legion publicly while you stood behind them throwing verbal stones. So don't act like we are barbarians for not [i]investigating a lead[/i] when Tetris were the perpetrators of displaying our private forums. And had we known you all were behind it, nothing less than declaring on you at the same time would have satisfied. And now, when all that !@#$ has come down on your head for acting like @#{:content:}amp;*$, you try to twist a story this way and that. You are full of lies and watching you try to squirm out from underfoot would be gratifying if weren't so pathetic. I feel sorry for you. Just man up, quit with the !@#$%^&*, and let's fight this to the end. [/quote] I made that allegation, when you declared war and again today. I am not twisting anything, and I don't lie - I have no need to. You are not barbarians, you were just foolhardy and concerned more with your image, or perhaps internal unrest (members clamoring for a declaration of war), than with actually repairing an issue. I can't say how NSO government would have responded if you had bothered to follow it up, but neither can you, because you never did. Your government chose to attack the weaker target rather than make even the most cursory investigation of the larger. Tetris never spied on you, and neither did the NSO. Nor did the NSO prompt anyone to go public with anything. But once it happened, we supported our allies and ended up here. You can rage all you want about how terrible of a person I apparently am, it really just makes you look foolish. What has come down on our head? The Legion? At the risk of inviting yet another discussion of who is "winning" we seem to be doing fine, thank you very much, so I wouldn't start counting those chickens just yet.

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1318802500' post='2826408'] Where did I say that you said everyone in Tetris knew? [/quote] [quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1318801277' post='2826394'] So your story is that Varianz knew, your allies in Tetris knew, [/quote] Yea I think we're done here. [quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1318806623' post='2826471'] First of all I can't say if Legion government did know or didn't know tetris got it from Varianz. We did know, however, Tetris posted it in the World Affairs section of the OWF, and that is why the membership was clamoring for a declaration. But, even if the government of legion did know, what you are saying makes no sense. According to the bolded part of your quote above they told Varianz they knew it was him but didn't ask him about it? I find that hard to believe. Also wasn't Varianz NSO government at the time (I believe he still is now)? Wouldn't that make the italicized part of your post wrong? [/quote] Legion made no effort to follow the issue up with anyone else in NSO, which is why it is only coming out now. The allegation is that Legion didn't really care about the spying, they just wanted to make a show of force to reclaim "honor" (I, for one, always thought Klingons were dumb) and they chose the relatively convenient target of Tetris, deliberately choosing not to investigate a lead that led to the NSO. The actions both public and private (those which I am aware of anyway) seem to support this view, and it's the one I've espoused since the war began and this little revelation only lends more evidence to it.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1318748333' post='2826135'] In case you somehow missed it, in the series of posts preceding the one in question I tried my hardest to make Ray understand that I did in fact know and he shouldn't keep contesting the point because I didn't want to bring it up in public while the war was still going on. If I'm not mistaken, I said that almost word for word. The fact that he couldn't not reply isn't my problem, he had full warning that he was about to open a can of worms and should just stop. [/quote] You hyped up some nonsense about this being our fault (when it clearly isn't). Rayvon was supposed to just ignore that? And then when the only thing you could release was that Tetris got the screenshots from Varianz (oh no!) you acted as if it was some huge reveal, and now we get to watch the idiots flail on about "ethical poverty" and pigs in the mud and whatever Jaiar has been trying to say. But I'll let it go, out of respect for Tetris. [quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1318782021' post='2826264'] So everyone knew that NSO supplied the screenshots, people in Legion knew but ignored it because they didn't want to declare on NSO? In the same post you claim that NSO gov only found out 10 minutes ago. You're squealing like a pig stuck in mud Varianz. I for one am enjoying immensely. More please. [/quote] He stated that Legion gov clearly knew because they told him about it before they even declared war, but that NSO gov wasn't aware. You know what would have made NSO gov aware? If Legion had brought it up with someone over here in an effort to actually find the source of the leak. They knew Tetris got it from Varianz, but they never bothered to try and figure out where Varianz got it from. Similarly, they declared war on Tetris and not us despite knowing that there was at least some connection (again, the exact nature of that connection they never bothered to investigate). So we have an alliance that attacked a much smaller opponent with limited treaty ties in an overt effort to restore its "honor" rather than actually trying to correct the issue of someone in Legion leaking screenshots.

[quote name='EaTeMuP' timestamp='1318744087' post='2826111'] Which beer? [/quote] I'll have to consult our resident butterbeer experts.

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1318742801' post='2826102'] Somebody feeling a wee bit touchy? Read my post again. I didn't even specify how I felt about the validity of Rayvon's denial. I only said two things that are pretty easily agreed upon to be true. Having plausible deniability in any incident is useful/good. And having it, the trick is convincing third parties how genuine it it. I'm not obstructing you, I'm certainly not obstructing your war effort. I didn't even say how I feel (though anybody who knows me could probably make a pretty solid guess at my positions). I left a decidedly neutral comment, and you saw it as an attack. Somebody got a guilty conscience? [/quote] Your government has gone out of its way to obstruct us, both militarily and, now, politically. I have no guilt on my conscience, only an increasing amount of frustration at having to shoulder the inadequacies of other alliances, yours included.

[quote name='EaTeMuP' timestamp='1318742422' post='2826089'] Now that the cat is out of the bag, I think NSO should provide Legion with a beer review. [/quote] What cat? What bag?

The NSO is one of the very few alliances to exhibit any consistent sense of integrity or values over the last two years, so I don't have any concerns about our "ethical poverty."

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1318739450' post='2826057'] Well deniability is always good, the real trick will be how many people give such claims any credibility. [/quote] One wonders why VE would repeatedly go out of its way to obstruct the efforts of the largest alliance currently fighting on behalf of your own allies, the ones which you have decided not to defend. It is an odd way to express your gratitude. I await your thank you note with bated breath.

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1318722194' post='2825854'] Read post #533. It's spot on. I knew what NSO was up to because you guys are predictable. When was that thread? Exactly. Now, go find a way to shoot yourselves in the foot again. You know what Heft, just don't quote my posts anymore and I won't quote you [/quote] You "knew" what we were up to because you live in your own fantasy land where the NSO is simultaneously a complete failure and also the engineer of an insidious spy ring. Varianz passed around some screenshots which a few people in Tetris ultimately posted. Legion chose to declare war on Tetris rather than actually investigate the leak, and now here we are, with Legion and NSO trading nukes back and forth.

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1318721701' post='2825850'] Ridicule from NSO does not make the entire world and don't believe for a minute that it wounds me. Your alliance is predictable and a failure. Planted or placed, whatever. NSO worked with someone with access in Legion. That is espionage whether the spy was planted or turned against Legion. Your alliance is burning and will continue to burn for acts of stupidity. Every action your alliance takes ends up badly. Failures. [/quote] You were so close to having an actual argument, and then you just went back to your usual nonsense. At least I can safely go back to ignoring you now.

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1318720671' post='2825846'] For the record I suspected NSO's hands in the spying. I accused NSO of planting a spy in the "WHY HATE LEGION?" thread. [b]Many responses to my accusation:[/b] Rayvon - "Ohhhhhhh you got us .... Goddamn we can't get nothin past you, can we?" ---- No, you can't kevin32891 - "I really hope you're joking and if you're not." ---- I was not joking. Dilbur - "People like you are the reason for membership gags." ---- The truth should not be gagged. Brehon - "Jaiar - shut up." ---- My intuition is better than yours. Bubba (Rebel Virginia) - You're an idiot, and it is the steady increase in members of your low caliber that the NPO has been on a decline for years. ---- Varianz is the idiot and NPO lost a solid member. [/quote] Jaiar, you are an object of ridicule because you constantly prove yourself worthy of ridicule. The NSO never bothered to plant a spy in Legion. And while the NPO has lost many solid members over the years, I doubt anyone would include you among that number.

[quote name='MisterShadow' timestamp='1318698843' post='2825685'] Must be nice to openly discount someone who is on your side and if you look at the stats doing the best.... True they only have 6 active wars atm though [/quote] I think it's fair to say that IAA hasn't exactly been focused on this war the last two weeks, and that it has shown in their performance. Which is understandable, but still frustrating for the rest of us.