Lanore

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1332467036' post='2941915'] Last time I checked I was on excellent terms with GATO, something that a few members of your gov know extremely well. My opinion that lanore is an inexperienced joke of a FA minister does not bear on how I view GATO as a whole. Just saying. [/quote] Thank God too. Edit: Notably I'm also one of the best people in terms of taking criticism and talking with people. You know during your time in GATO you could have simply told me I was a joke and what I was doing wrong. I'd have been apt to listen. I know people who are willing to listen in CN are rare but I'm actually one of them. Hell if you want to tell me why I'm horrible here, or in a query, feel free bro. At least you get that I'm a joke though. The number of people that take me seriously 9 times out of 10 is actually concerning. I was wondering if my humor was just lost on people or what.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332470277' post='2941979'] I would go so far as to say Sparta had been a better ally to Umbrella than MK ever had, even. [/quote] I would say this is under the idea that there is an objective way to measure what makes a good ally. It's my experience that people never look at their allies or friends in an objective light at all. ( I don't actually want to get into the argument. I just wanted to nitpick that. I realize you have more experience with Umb than I have or likely ever will Roq. (though it could be argued I suppose that Umbrella is not the same alliance you were involved in before your recent return and that your personal experience with them isn't as heavy as it used to be in regards to how they viewed allies pre Sparta Cancellation. Whatever I think you got my point. Sorry for butting in lol. ))

Good luck with this. [color="#DDA0DD"]♥[/color]

Unexpected. ( I can't believe you didn't say anything to me Omni. You really don't love me. ) p.p I wish you guys a ton of luck.

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1331594916' post='2937351'] So MK entered knowing the intel was faulty anyway is what you are saying? And we all know why MHA refused the first offer. Fixed that for you. [/quote] Nice detraction. At least you admit that ending a war isn't as easy as you make out. I wasn't in MK at the time you should ask them. As for MHA disregarding the first offer, I've heard a few different stories. I wasn't there for talks, so I wouldn't venture to guess. I chalked it up to " The war has only been on for a few days like hell we're surrendering " . I mean, I'd be indignant too. Enlighten me though charles, I love to learn. Edit: If you are going to continue with the MK conspiracy theories let me know and we can stop the conversation right now. I don't debate conspiracy theorists or fanatics. It's a waste of time.

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1331593085' post='2937328'] What you should have done is immediately declare a white peace when you found out the intel was incorrect.. Instead you chose the option of staying in because ODN didn't want to leave MK behind and don't even try and deny it. [/quote] Hint: We found out the intel was incorrect before MK entered to my knowledge. MHA Refused the first offer, things were rescheduled, and stuff got complicated for GATO. According to Laslo/Tubs it had to do with getting Hooligans out/PPO not wanting to leave or something along those lines. Wars begin when they will, they don't end when you please.

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1331425190' post='2936616'] If my posts mean nothing, I find it highly intriguing so many high profile players quote them. Apparently there is some truth in them, despite all the attempts to discredit, or else I'd just be ignored completely..no? Do not put words in my mouth. I've said nothing more then Sparta and GATO are not friends. I think that much is quite clear. If GATO wants to fix their relationship with Sparta, I don't think Sparta is going anywhere. Nor do I believe they would reject calls for discussions by GATO. [/quote] The issue with this is that GATO went into the last war to protect a friend from what we saw at the time as a legitimate threat. You hold it against us that we refused to drop the war immediately once realizing that the threat we saw wasn't exactly accurate, even though to my knowledge we only held demands for white peace for ourselves and our allies with a no reentry clause. You (Read:Sparta) also continually claim that we are MK lapdogs which is inherently insulting. Further, your claim that we were hell bent on the war and were looking for an entry isn't entirely correct. We saw the war as an inevitability, were preparing for it, and waiting for a strike or intel. GATO had no interest in a war with XX until Fark hit NPO. That fact is as plain as day. I've apologized for the circumstances of the war, and I've apologized for the harm Sparta felt for it. I can not, and will not, however, apologize for seizing a moment to defend my friends, or refusing to leave the field of battle until our allies also received peace. So the only question I have with Sparta is pretty straight forward: Will you continue to expect GATO to unconditionally feel sorry for the entire event and admit we were inherently evil and looking to cause you harm? Because that is what it seems like you want, and you'll never get that.

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1331269078' post='2935827'] Who cares about the past? It's mother$%&@ing GATO. They be in CnG now. They got mad god-like powa' [/quote] This post made me smile so much. You finally get it. [IMG]http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv143/Hashentea/Creeper-1.png[/IMG]

I'm not particularly worried about the end of the world or anything like that. I also find it weird that like, everyone in this thread is suddenly wanting to stop their arguments for being off topic as though that mattered pages ago. Like, did I miss something? Anyways I'm happy to see it get back on topic. The only surprising election for the new gov is Armen for MoDA. He's new to the position but not the ministry and I'm really excited for him, since that is where I got my high gov start as well.

[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1330950462' post='2933866'] added: the ally of ally is technically right but it is a fallacy. Lines were drawn before Fark move. To choose an ODP over 2 MDoAP based on the "agression made by Fark" was only an excuse to do something that was planned beforehand. [/quote] TLR worked hard for that treaty and had practically been daring people to give them the chance to honor it and the friendship's true worth is now shown as an MDoAP.

[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1330950462' post='2933866'] Please... we all know that C&G position was set [u]before[/u] Fark attacked NPO (which by the way was triggered by the Declaration of Support, which in my opinion is basically a hidden DoW). [/quote] NPO/crew declared support for people they already had treaties with. That would be like GATO saying it supports LoSS/Hooligans/ect. Obvious statement is obvious. It was a political ploy used to rouse, and it did, and Fark chomped at the bit. Fark did a preemptive strike, because NPO pointed out it had treaties and would, you know, burn for their allies if someone hit them. That is something assumed to begin with. Fark may as well have hit NPO for simply holding the treaties. As for CnG I've done my best to look back on it and talk with people who were gov at the time and the consensus I've gotten is it wasn't planned or even wanted. It became clear once Fark hit NPO but before that it was unknown and GATO was unaware who they were going to roll with until shortly before we DoW'd. If you have actual evidence stating CnG was planning on hitting XX hard pre Fark dec I'd love to see it.

[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1330949830' post='2933858'] Are you F#@#$ kidding? So GATO attacking MHA when International was allied to R&R and ODN to us was what? [/quote] It's not a direct ally. You wonder why we didn't hit you? Or RnR when they slammed into LoSS? (Well there was a bit more behind the second one but still the same principle. ) Then again XX seemed to have no problem hitting our allies, or even preempting them. I don't blame RnR for hitting LoSS, and I don't blame Fark for hitting NPO. It was just business. When business came around to XX however you all seemed to take offense like it was unexpected. For what reason did you think with TLR already on the field that the rest of CnG wouldn't find it's way to XX eventually? RnR and Sparta had no reason to be afraid of CnG but if you expected us to stand by while your blocmates hit our allies you were crazy at least.

Wait Roq just so I understand, the fact that ODN doesn't cancel on MK means they condone everything they do? That isn't how politics work, let alone political friendships, or even actual friendships. Relationships with people are about compromise. They always are.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1330943000' post='2933827'] Would you actually be interested in that? I don't like talking to brick walls. Kind of the reason I don't bother with ODN because as long as OsRavan's in charge, nothing will happen. [/quote] This post alone shows you know nothing about myself or Laslo, let alone a vast majority of GATO, to think we aren't interested in seriously talking with parties that have grievances, misunderstandings, or complaints about us. Does that mean we will be swayed to your line of thought and admit we've been horrible people and MK lapdogs? No. Does that mean we learn nothing? (or you by extension )? No. You seem to have a very "all or nothing" outlook on things Roq. Anyways I'm a very sociable person and on irc often. If you want to learn about GATO/our positions on things/our decisions/ect you can hit me up any time you want. GATO facilities are made up of 100% real people, not bricks, promise.

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1330909932' post='2933516'] Pretty sure that when you're a diplomat somewhere, you represent your alliance, not just yourself. [/quote] Not when you state you're no longer gov and can't give an official opinion with the MoFA/AC no longer in the embassy. I pretty much went over to be Sparta's punching bag after Magicninja. I took hits for a good 5+ pages and let them vent their rages. Said a bunch of stuff at least half of which I no longer remember or care about. When it was time to be done I ended it. What I do remember were these sentiments: Yes we messed some stuff up. We aren't perfect and have our reasons. I'm sorry you got hurt, I'm not sorry we did what we did. I still personally like you and our alliance as a whole doesn't have much against you. If you choose to come around in the future we'll be here. Notably since the engagement, because that was quite some time ago, some of Sparta's actions have changed some of my opinions. That's between myself and Sparta though, not myself and you.

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1330908628' post='2933498'] Yea VE is crappy. How do you feel about them saying you are a "liability" and "awful" after using you and your bloc mate to brown nose PB? [/quote] Well it's true isn't it? GATO is WAE and living off a power high we got through joining CnG. VE is just mad that they cancelled on us and don't get to suckle off the sweet teat of power we are currently guzzling from, obviously. Charles: How was I wrong for refusing to act like the entire situation was our fault? No seriously. GATO remained relatively outside of everything up until our declaration. How can you claim we were responsible for the circumstances that put us in an XX/CnG war when XX hit a CnG ally first? You're being silly if you are saying that I should have apologized for the entire scenario and DoS NPO and crew issued. I should have apologized for TOP/Iron hitting NpO too. Hell I should have taken it a step further and apologized for Polar as well since apparently that was the cause of the first declaration that triggered the front. Clearly I have a reason to feel bad about that. Look, my alliance's gov acted on intel it thought was proper and constituted a war with MHA in the defense of our allies. I am sorry the intel turned out to be faulty. I am sorry Sparta feels personally affronted and hurt over it. I am sorry for a lot of the circumstances that lead up to it. That doesn't make myself or GATO responsible for those circumstances. It definitely doesn't make myself or GATO responsible for Sparta's feelings. And strategically speaking it doesn't make our declaration all too less relevant. There is a difference between being sorry and taking responsibility for something. I quit apologizing for my alliance a long time ago because we have nothing to apologize for. If you take remorse for a situation as a whole as admittance of being wrong entirely you are an emotionally bland person. As for the Sparta embassy I wrote a lot of walls of text in response to a lot of emotionally charged sentiments and went out of my way to roleplay as a messenger of peace and love simply because I don't hate Sparta and enjoy quite a few of them as individuals and because arguing is fun. You'll notice not too long after I was put in actual office I quit with my fun and ended it by closing the embassy because nothing fruitful could come of it. What a surprise, I act differently when governing for a body of individuals outside myself than I do when I am only a representative of myself.

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1330907934' post='2933485'] The train wreck of a thread within the GATO embassy on Sparta's boards says otherwise. Your train wreck of a thread I might add. [/quote] Read it as you will. My intentions are different than your interpretations and Sparta is free to ask me to clarify what I mean at any time.

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1330907468' post='2933472'] It doesn't come in. He has still to learn that part. Sheesh Omni, he has only been doing FA for a few months, give the poor guy a break. [/quote] The issue I was discussing was about ODN following in on GATO's declaration and so VE was irrelevant. VE did what they did for their own reasons. Literally nobody in the GA saw it coming and to my knowledge our government never asked nor begged for the favor. If there was an arrangement I don't much care about it now. It was a pleasant surprise and was convenient enough for me. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth and all that.

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1330907724' post='2933478'] I don't really recall apologising for anything. I tend to be pretty polite though, so it could well have been that. [/quote] He's talking about me, and I did apologize. Though I apologized specifically for causing hurt to Sparta and any responsibility for ending that relationship. ( I apologized to ODN too ), despite not being gov at the time. I did not apologize for GATO's gov acting on intel and doing what it thought was best for the alliance however. I only apologized for the unintended blowback and collateral damage. Get your apologies right Charles.

To add to Laslo, it wasn't known to be faulty till after the declaration either. Wars begin when you will but they don't end when you please. The goal of GATO from the beginning of the war was to gain a simple victory and no reentry, so stop acting like for a moment that there was anything personal about it against Sparta. Hell Sparta's blocmate hit our treaty partner ( NPO ) first. You don't see GATO or TLR holding Fark's actions against Sparta. Neither of us ever expected ODN to be able to stop Fark from hitting either. Whereas apparently Sparta expected something along those lines from ODN in relation to the MHA war.

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1330906304' post='2933448'] I am pretty sure ODN's actions cleared up any confusion within Sparta as to how ODN viewed Sparta. [/quote] GATO chains MA clause on ODN. ODN honors CnG treaty. ODN uses its influence to help demand light terms for MHA. ODN are complete and total monsters who hate Sparta and were supposed to tell GATO and TLR to go to hell despite being part of an MDAP bloc. Sparta cancels on ODN for having a lack of morals and honoring a blood pact because they are obviously horrible people. Yeah that sounds like the way it happened.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1330905182' post='2933420'] Um, Int's treaties don't mean anything compared to ODN and TLR's in the grand scheme. [/quote] Well I'm happy that you are here to tell us whose treaties mean what to which CnG members. I have a feeling INT would have a few choice words for you saying their treaty partners don't matter, and I am sure ODN and TLR respect INT's treaties as much as GATO does. You talk a big game saying that any of CnG's treaties "don't mean anything" . Fark thought that too. I rarely go so far as to speak on other's behalf but as GATO's MoFA I beg anyone to test CnG's resolve for its allies or its respect for its individual member's treaties.

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1330904839' post='2933418'] You'll have to talk to GATO, if you can get past the wall of arrogance(TM). [/quote] Why would you ask GATO? We're way too busy being WAE. Being this bad takes effort you know.

Charles I made the thread just a little bit ago on GATO's boards. I'd have made it last night but I've been busy. I'm only anticipating a handful of people really being upset about it though.

[quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1330887013' post='2933266'] In this case I can safely say I really don't what you mean at all. [/quote] [quote]I can safely say I really don't what you mean at all.[/quote] [quote]I really don't what you mean at all.[/quote] [quote]I really don't what you mean[/quote] [quote]I really don't what.[/quote] [quote]what[/quote] Roquentin: Previously INT had RIA/SOS treaties and ODN had Sparta, tying CnG to SF and XX. Also CnG being a puppet alliance for DH/PB would mean CnG has no ambition or goals of its own, which is patently false despite how much people from outside it would like to say otherwise.