Kalasin

Good choice. Brehon doesn't seem too terrible and Baka is one of the better IOs as well.

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1327112894' post='2903985'] I suppose you learned precisely how the NPO leadership works back when you were in Pacifica? And you were so well able to follow all those rules and principles you understood so as to have a productive career in Pacifica? Hmmm? [/quote] Yes actually Cortath, that is exactly when I learned how the NPO operated.

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1327082444' post='2903666'] 2. You have specifically pointed out Mary who at the time wasn't Emperor and towed her line most proper. As Emperor she has not been anything like you are pointing out, which has been shown by action over and over again. [/quote] Cut the !@#$%^&*, Brehon, there's a world of difference between changing the way you behave because you don't have the manpower to be a dick anymore and changing because you don't agree with NPO's modus operandi of times past. Don't try and feed us the line that Mary just towed the line out of fear or some crap. Roq is highly intelligent and doesn't bear patronising to. Everyone knows how governments work and NPO leadership collectively played the bad guy because it was fun. That's the way NPO works, it's a highly collectivist alliance with a paranoid ruling elite that think the same way. I mean, Mary was Moo's #2 for God's sake.

*smiles grudgingly* Yeah, this was quite a good topic. I think Doitzel's being too harsh to be honest. NPO have been entirely fair in their terms. It is understandable that Fark and FAN would jump on Brehon's mistake for PR but everyone slips up from time to time and I don't think you can fault him for that. It was just a mistake. The original terms were extremely lenient and Fark/FAN should just man up and accept them. I mean for God's sake nobody takes an empty statement made at gunpoint seriously. It's a matter of pride and it's rather stupid.

[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1326840815' post='2901756'] Since you're aiming so admirably for transparency here and your entire argument hinges on this miscommunication, why don't you show us the logs between you and Mary that you so disastrously misunderstood? [/quote] I echo this. Show us the logs Brehon. That having been said, I honestly thought he came across as sincere. I realise he's playing Mr Magnanimous for the OWF, but that doesn't mean everything he's saying is a lie.

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1326609534' post='2899940'] No, they are not. [/quote] Oh for God's sake, why won't people announce treaty cancellations (or signings) anymore. It gets out eventually anyway and it makes keeping up with politics a pain in the neck.

Brehon, if I didn't know better, I'd call you a decent guy. I think this is a reasonable post which has generated interesting discussion, although I agree with Omni that if would have spiced things up a bit to add logs of the negotiations. From me this is high praise (I can't remember the last time I said something nice about anyone in your alliance leadership and really meant it.) [quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1326493876' post='2899058'] Fark would love to make NPO the bad guy again. By refusing the entirely reasonable terms you've offered them, they hope to provoke you into demanding reps and making the world fear the "ebil NPO" again. Unfortunately for them, the entire world recognizes how !@#$@#$ retarded Fark are, and would have no sympathy for them if you levied reps. Hell, most would applaud you after they spit your offer back at you. [/quote] Oh please, NSO is the alliance that came up with this crap. Something about a plank in your eye. [quote name='Westernfront' timestamp='1326573730' post='2899628'] Brehon for Sparta viceroy [/quote] Sparta are your allies.

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1326344294' post='2897895'] I agree with the first part of your post, but I strongly disagree with the last one. You say that grudges is what drives CN politics but what politics is left after people started to attack others just because they dislike said alliance? Drop all the pretenses/politics(manipulation, isolation, fabrication, etc) to start to attack just those who you dislike would destroy (already destroyed) the main objective of this game, who is be a simulation game to become just another game which the objective is kill the other side, and for that we have tons of better games. CN politics never was very developed but in old times people at least used to try, nowadays the interactions in this game just became a digital version of a playground in a elementary school. I started to play CN because of the simulation characteristic, were everyone had a country and the interactions with each other and among alliances were based on real diplomatic relations, nowadays this characteristic is almost completely gone, nowadays I still play just because I'm stubborn. [/quote] Yeah, you're just [i]known[/i] for your ability to forgive and forget.

I had a grudge with the NPO for the longest time. I think grudges are fine so long as you keep them IC. Holding a rivalry IC and keeping good humour OOC is really quite fun. Thing is most people don't observe the IC/OOC line anymore and therefore aren't prepared to move on from grudges formed three years ago and therefore politics doesn't change an awful lot. Meanwhile people who observe IC/OOC are demonised as 'moralists' even though it has nothing to do with moralism.

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1325903173' post='2894431'] The last time you had a reliable source they were full of crap [/quote] Except you know otherwise. Anyway, this thread of conversation has nothing to do with FAN.

[quote name='Farrin Xies' timestamp='1325902423' post='2894422'] Meh, we certainly don't mind them, and we have some friends in common now. So Fran... go back into your hole. [/quote] We shall see. The true test of that will be when you're not trying to suck up to the current power structure. I have been hearing whispers to the contrary from reliable sources and frankly I hope it's true because there's nothing like a grudge to make things more interesting here.

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1325888397' post='2894312'] Don't beat around the bush... it was Admit defeat, cease wars, no re-enter. Your side of it wants to pick and choose who will stay in and who wont. No great mystery here and don't make me log dump. [/quote] I am glad you're not demanding anything more, but frankly it's expected. I'd be more interested to see what would happen if you had the upper hand in a war with MK. I'm sure despite pretences to the contrary you haven't quite forgotten the DH pre-empt.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1325485180' post='2890524'] [i][04:44] <xxxxxxxxxx> Arsenal dislikes GOONS a lot and doesn't want us [b]allied to them, but OsRavan does[/b]- there's a leadership struggle going on behind the scenes at the moment[/i] [/quote] For a start, that is an extremely dated conversation because ODN-GOONS relations improved considerably and even FOK said they over-reacted to a certain leak and started to like ODN more eventually. Arsenal was considering forcing MK to choose between us and GOONS (but eventually warmed up to them and gave up on the idea) while rather than squander a lot of political capital with MK OsRavan wanted to get us closer to GOONS and remain tied to their sphere of influence rather than disrupting the web (also, Arsenal held historic differences with GOONS while Os didn't mind them.) Perhaps that is what your anonymous source meant by what they said (for the record guys, it wasn't me, although everyone in ODN is going to assume that.) I don't follow ODN politics anymore but I have a good idea of why they sign their treaties. They don't sign ODPs unless they intend to consider upgrading them at some point, so we can expect an MDoAP in a month or two unless something happens. Europa was tied to GOONS who are quite close to ODN now, so it made political sense, and the two alliances clearly came to like each other (another requirement in ODN's list of reasons why they sign treaties.) It's not some grand scheme of OsRavan's to eventually treaty GOONS.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1325483768' post='2890497'] There's no need for you to put words in my mouth, I've got quite enough on my own. Don't come in here with this hyperbolic bull. If I want to say that OsRavan tried to ram a treaty with anyone down ODN's throat, that's what I'll say, and we all know [i]that[/i]. And make no assumptions about what conversations I'm referring to--you are wrong, it was between myself and members of ODN--assumptions only make an ass out of you and Mption. [/quote] OsRavan realised in the first place that there was too much hostility amongst the ODN membership towards GOONS to try for a treaty, which is why he never tried to sign one. It was unnecessary with MDoAPs with MK and Umbrella anyway. He's not stupid, he just lacks vision. All he wanted was better relations with GOONS.

Actually Schatt he only wanted to improve ODN-GOONS relations and ironically you provided him the perfect opportunity with the WCE incident. That was when he and Sardonic got close. He was never after a treaty, publicly at least.

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1324584786' post='2884184'] I thought post-Karma was interesting at first. The new Moldavi Doctrine, Frostbite, the rise of Moralism/anti-tech raiding, NSO, the rise of Super Grievences, and other events were fun to watch. WWE was boring as hell, but at least Bipolar wasn't lame. In the long run however, it only delayed the game a year and a half until TOP could attack Polar again. Boring. The Bipolar era will end after this war in my opinion. These grudges need to end. [/quote] There was no rise of moralism. Moralism saw its peak before and during Karma. Afterwards, when NPO had been cast down, everyone somewhat stood around wondering what to do. Rather than recognising that the boredom was due to the end of an era, there was a great backlash against moralism, which was supposedly 'killing the game' because it prevented people from 'doing interesting stuff'. This was of course a myth because by this point everyone had turned on moralism. Vladimir would say that the usefulness of moralism had run its course and thus it was abandoned. I am less cynical. I simply believe that SF and C&G weren't very good bad guys which is why moralism became outdated. That didn't stop NPO from playing the victim of course, except that because of their history most people saw through the !@#$%^&*. It was only newer players who hadn't been around to experience their rule who got sucked into it.

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1323983798' post='2879083'] How many balls? (missing apostrophe: "the ball is in..." --> "ball's in...") I'd say the answer to how much damage we're willing to sustain is "rather a lot." It's been fun so far. My tech:infra ratio is improving no end [/quote] You missed a full stop at the end.

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1323839416' post='2877345'] Because that's exactly what our history is filled with, hitting token alliances and saving our stats. [/quote] Oh please, the last time you fought a losing war was years ago and not out of choice.

I called that VE would declare on a nobody alliance to preserve their stats but I thought it would be in a token show of support for GOD. You're worse than I thought.

Good luck Invicta. I really like you guys, no matter what anyone says. Looks like you're on the winning side for once

[quote name='Wilhelm the Demented' timestamp='1323435407' post='2870861'] You got TLR confused with Athens for a second. [/quote] Yeah, I wasn't sure if it was TLR or Athens. Minor point. [quote name='Wilhelm the Demented' timestamp='1323435407' post='2870861'] You also seem to be confusing Umbrella's downgrade on MHA with Sparta. [/quote] That's odd, I could have sworn they downgraded to an ODP and it wasn't announced, but I just checked the wiki and it seems you're correct. Another minor point. [quote name='Wilhelm the Demented' timestamp='1323435407' post='2870861'] To say that choosing to stick by our allies when the the vice started tightening around their necks justifies our immediate allies aggressively attacking our other immediate allies is complete bullocks. We knew they would get involved and we had come to terms with it, even if they ended up fighting our immediate allies via counters but this abused our trust. [/quote] No. I understand Sparta wants to prove itself, that it doesn't warrant its reputation as a cowardly alliance (and in fact I don't think Sparta is cowardly) but what you are doing is dumb. This whole nonsense about sticking by your allies and such is rubbish because you never should have tied yourselves to those people in the first place, and if you did you should have been prepared to accept the consequences. The problem is that Sparta has always had bad FA. A certain ODN government member actually told me about a conversation you had with him or her where you wanted to make sure that you were tied to everyone. ODN had an MADP with people who ended up fighting your treaty partner and they were obligated to defend them. They didn't want to be in that situation, but the fact that they haven't cancelled with you up til now is a reflection of the deep affection and appreciation they have for your alliance and what you have done for them. My advice to you is to sort out your treaties, leave XX (after this war, obviously) and maintain your treaty with ODN because they are one of the few alliances in CN who care for you.

This is a regrettable situation. The thing is, it has been clear for months that the ODN-Sparta treaty was going to get strained. This is why Umbrella had the sense to downgrade with them. The problem was that Sparta had done a lot for ODN. They were good allies and refrained from hitting GATO in a previous war because ODN and TLR asked them not to. They also fought hard for them in BiPolar and such. ODN felt a sense of obligation to them and thought it would be a dick move to just cancel after everything they had done. There was also the hope some people held that Sparta would join C&G, although TLR were rather pissed when Sparta opted to discontinue the Athens treaty, which did damage the relationship and also it could never happen while Sparta was still in XX. Honestly, I don't think it's either party's fault here. I think Sparta is mostly to blame for the situation because of their stupid FA decision making. Joining XX was such a stupid move because it was an awful bloc and because of its ties to SF. From the moment they joined that bloc they should have known their ties to DH and C&G were going to be strained in this inevitable war. They don't really have the right to get pissed with ODN, especially as in the backchannels loads of people are actually pissed because ODN has been trying to do their best by all their allies. On the other hand, perhaps ODN should have manned up and downgraded earlier like Umbrella. But that wouldn't have made anyone in Sparta happy either. ODN was faced with an unpleasant choice and chose to ignore the problem. Can you really blame them?

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1323344699' post='2869009'] Why don't you get it right and call us what we are. We aren't lackeys, we're meatshields. [/quote] This post wasn't the slightest bit funny, if that is what you were going for.

For once the NPO and their lackeys are quite right. It's unreasonable not to expect an alliance to call in their allies.

I like FAN, but I was always kind of disappointed you didn't [i]do[/i] much post-Karma. You had great PR after NPO was vanquished. You could have had treaties with anyone you liked. In fact, you could have been at the head of your own bloc right now if you had capitalised on the general goodwill towards you. Certainly you had enough smart, capable people to achieve that. Instead you deliberately chose to fade into irrelevance and you only developed close relationships with a couple of alliances like Nordreich and Fark. You knew that you could never become a military alliance like you once were because NPO's war against you caused you permanent damage, but you still didn't put any effort into FA. I don't really get it. Happy hunting, anyway. Nuke Cortath for me