Schattenmann

Asked this question Is named YOLO SWAG

TOP is going to be so disappointed.

Try as you might you won't convince me you're a paranoid delusional, though it would be a fun line of insults to pursue.

A bottle of Remy Martin 1738 and my silver tongue on his ear lobe.

I like it.

It's so important to Os that he is still bringing it up apropos of nothing 2 years later. I see that you've spent some time in Os's World, where it's Schattemann's fault that OsCraven brought it up.

Right, I missed that in TBB's post. Eq was 2013, we have been pointing out Os's doublespeak and generally sadistic disconnect with reality since 2011 when it first baffled us. I, for one, when I purposefully make a joke in the middle of extremely tense high-level negotiations, make sure I use a smiley. No smileys here.

For as long as OsRavan says that he never did XYZ when he in fact did do XYZ, I will point out that he did do it. See my sig for more.

That's what I would advise you to do if I were in your shoes.

He certainly smells like Chaos Spawn.

There are 0 people on this planet who believe you were joking. Not even 1, because even you know you weren't. You brought it up, buddy. You're correct: Everyone in that room knew exactly what you were doing. You were offering to pay 100,000 tech in exchange for peace for Umbrella. I think it's cute that you whined about how long the meeting was, since, ya know, it could've been 50% shorter if you hadn't spent an hour gasping at the negotiations rather than just negotiating. Since you know that the logs are excerpted for brevity, not in order to twist them, but since you have said that's what I'm doing anyway, here are the full logs, which no one will read. Session Start: Thu Mar 14 14:37:16 2013 Session Ident: #hardsheep 03[14:37] * Now talking in #hardsheep 03[14:37] * ChanServ sets mode: +oa Brehon[NPO] Brehon[NPO] [14:37] <&Kestral> (I went to sorrento a few years ago, had a day in Rome on the way out) [14:37] <&Kestral> woo, Brehon [14:37] <~Jrenster> well at least brehon's auto join on invite is on! [14:37] <&Kestral> oh [14:37] <&NobodyExpects> ' /cs #chan invite nick [14:37] <&NobodyExpects> I think [14:38] <~Jrenster> turns out it was /invite nick chan [14:38] <&OsRavan[ODN]> hey brehon [14:38] <~Jrenster> i had to mess around with the commands [14:38] <~Jrenster> to figure that one out 03[14:38] * quiz (has joined #hardsheep [14:38] <quiz> hello [14:38] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ok [14:38] <&NobodyExpects> Hey quiz 05[14:38] -ice.coldfront.net:@#hardsheep- Jrenster invited Farrin[NPO|ZzZz] into the channel. [14:38] <&OsRavan[ODN]> well i think we are all here? are we resy to start this party? [14:39] <~Jrenster> we still need brehon [14:39] <&Kestral> ideally we'd grab someone from Umb too [14:39] <~Jrenster> yeah. i pinged natan [14:39] <~Jrenster> but he hasnt joined [14:40] <~Jrenster> for some reason [14:40] <&Kestral> I don't know the situation with Natan, but I know Daikos should be back around5-5.30 cst [14:40] <&OsRavan[ODN]> brehon just entered [14:40] <&Kestral> Brehon auto accepted the invite [14:40] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ahh [14:40] <~Jrenster> yeah [14:40] <&Kestral> he isn't actually here [14:40] <&OsRavan[ODN]> gotcha [14:40] <&OsRavan[ODN]> well with this being pre-talks can farrin/jren sorta represent NPO if we decide to start in the next few mijnutes? [14:40] <~Jrenster> quiz, can you rejoin? i gave you sops [14:41] <~Jrenster> i cant really talk on our behalf. it has to be brehon or farrin [14:41] <~Jrenster> but farrin is at work and wont be back for another few hours 03[14:41] * quizhas left #hardsheep (cycling) 03[14:41] * quiz has joined #hardsheep 03[14:41] * ChanServ sets mode: +oa quiz quiz [14:41] <&ncc[NG]> I thought we were starting at 17h CST? [14:42] <~Jrenster> yeah, still got another 20 minutes [14:42] <&OsRavan[ODN]> 0hh [14:42] <&OsRavan[ODN]> then no rush [14:42] <&OsRavan[ODN]> im sure brehon will show [14:42] <&NobodyExpects> ok Brehons going to join ius [14:42] <&OsRavan[ODN]> you got me all excited with the room [14:42] <&ncc[NG]> Ah I forgot about the time shift. [14:42] <&ncc[NG]> Gay. [14:42] <&NobodyExpects> irishtime is realtime [14:42] <&NobodyExpects> the rest is just bollox 01[14:42] <&Brehon[NPO]> Apologies I am here now 01[14:43] <&Brehon[NPO]> Hows it look to have Umb here? [14:44] <&Kestral> I don't know with regards to Natan/Raken (although Natan looked to just log on), but otherwise Daikos could potentially join us when he gets back from work [14:44] <&NobodyExpects> It killed Natan to mumble five words at me yesterday, not sure if that translates well to mass contrition [14:44] <&Kestral> which would hopefully be ~5cst, but could be up to half past [14:45] <&quiz> i've also shot natan a query 03[14:45] * ~Jrenster ) has left #hardsheep Session Close: Thu Mar 14 14:46:35 2013 Session Start: Thu Mar 14 14:46:40 2013 Session Ident: #hardsheep 03[14:46] * Now talking in #hardsheep 03[14:46] * ChanServ sets mode: +oq Brehon[NPO] Brehon[NPO] 01[14:50] <~Brehon[NPO]> I need a couple minutes to finish up what I was working on [14:50] <&NobodyExpects> no worries 03[14:52] * AirMe has joined #hardsheep 03[14:52] * ChanServ sets mode: +o AirMe [14:52] <@AirMe> I expected pansy [14:52] <@AirMe> with a channel name like that [14:52] <&quiz> sup airme [14:52] <@AirMe> I expected 100% more pansy [14:53] <@AirMe> sup [14:53] <&NobodyExpects> Hey AirMe [14:54] <@AirMe> sup 01[15:01] <~Brehon[NPO]> Alright, I am back 01[15:01] <~Brehon[NPO]> Apologize for the delay 01[15:01] <~Brehon[NPO]> Any word on Umb being able to join us? 03[15:02] * AirMe is now known as AirMe|GoWanderers [15:02] <&Kestral> afaik, daikos is trying to get natan 01[15:02] <~Brehon[NPO]> Alright [15:09] <&Kestral> as an update, apparently natan has been texted 01[15:11] <~Brehon[NPO]> appreciated 03[15:15] * Manis_B[GATO] has joined #hardsheep 03[15:15] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Manis_B[GATO] [15:15] <&Klinker[TIO]> Heya Manis 03[15:15] * Momentum has joined #hardsheep 03[15:15] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Momentum 01[15:15] <~Brehon[NPO]> Heya Manis 01[15:15] <~Brehon[NPO]> o/ [15:16] <@Manis_B[GATO]> howdy [15:16] <@Manis_B[GATO]> how is everyone today? [15:16] <&Klinker[TIO]> Alive, I think [15:17] <&quiz> i too am alive 03[15:17] * Daikos has joined #hardsheep 03[15:17] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Daikos [15:17] <@Daikos> 'ello [15:17] <&Kestral> Hello there 01[15:17] <~Brehon[NPO]> afternoon [15:18] <&Kestral> I think we can probably get started whenever people are ready then 01[15:18] <~Brehon[NPO]> That works for me [15:18] <@Daikos> Sounds good [15:18] <&Kestral> although some of us might be slightly distracted by the football [15:18] <@Daikos> **soccer 01[15:19] <~Brehon[NPO]> I know there were some non official talks and opinions discussed. Instead of doing that I figured we could just sit at the table and conduct these properly. 01[15:20] <~Brehon[NPO]> Thusly... everyone here is able to speak on behalf of their gov? And not just give personal oppinions? I would like to make sure we have solid distinction. [15:20] <@Daikos> Yes [15:20] <&Kestral> Yep [15:21] <&quiz> yes [15:21] <&Klinker[TIO]> Aye [15:22] <@Momentum> Yes 01[15:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> Voodoo ? 01[15:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> Ravan ? 01[15:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> NCC you back yet? [15:24] <&OsRavan[ODN]> brehon [15:24] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ravan doesnt ping me [15:24] <&OsRavan[ODN]> im here [15:24] <&OsRavan[ODN]> lets start this thing 03[15:25] * Dre4m has joined #hardsheep 03[15:25] * ChanServ sets mode: +oa Dre4m Dre4m [15:25] <&OsRavan[ODN]> so brehon, you wanna go first or can we just dive into this thing? [15:26] <&quiz> before we begin, does anyone mind if i add leet to the channel? [15:26] <&OsRavan[ODN]> teh? [15:26] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i dont mind [15:26] <&quiz> correct [15:26] <@Daikos> go for it 01[15:26] <~Brehon[NPO]> What gov level is he? [15:26] <&OsRavan[ODN]> he is the same rank as quiz i think 01[15:26] <~Brehon[NPO]> We are not looking for everyone here, just proper gov members. [15:26] <&quiz> he's a member of the enclave (like myself) [15:26] <&OsRavan[ODN]> both enclave (i.e fa) 01[15:27] <~Brehon[NPO]> Alright 01[15:27] <~Brehon[NPO]> Go ahead and add him so we can get this started [15:28] <&quiz> alright, cool, added him [15:28] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i thin kwe can start while he gets in [15:28] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ::is impatient!:: 03[15:28] * Teh1337Guyhas joined #hardsheep 03[15:28] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Teh1337Guy [15:28] <&OsRavan[ODN]> hey teh [15:28] <@Teh1337Guy> hey Os [15:28] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ok now we can definitly start ;:smirks:: 01[15:28] <~Brehon[NPO]> Hey Leet 01[15:29] <~Brehon[NPO]> Alright 01[15:29] <~Brehon[NPO]> So we have a couple of issue [15:29] <@Teh1337Guy> So is it singular or plural [15:29] <@Teh1337Guy> 01[15:29] <~Brehon[NPO]> Unofficially there has been talk about you all wanting peace across the entire set of wars/fronts or whatever you want to call it? 01[15:29] <~Brehon[NPO]> That is accurate? [15:29] <&OsRavan[ODN]> it is yes [15:29] <@Daikos> Yes [15:29] <&quiz> yes [15:29] <@Teh1337Guy> I believe so, yes [15:29] <&Kestral> mhm [15:30] <&Kestral> What's the opinion like on your side over this? 01[15:30] <~Brehon[NPO]> Due to the parties involved, that possibility is almost zero. There are just too many govs involved to do that properly and get anywhere. [15:30] <&OsRavan[ODN]> we dont need one big mega thread with everyones names on it [15:30] <@Teh1337Guy> You seem to have tried really hard at this, Brehon [15:31] <&OsRavan[ODN]> we just wanna exit at the same time.. i.e not run the risk that say cng peaces out [15:31] <@Teh1337Guy> To gather up everyone together at least at some level [15:31] <&OsRavan[ODN]> but people then decide to 'punish' dh [15:31] <&quiz> yes, as os said. we just need to ensure that everyone is given peace. [15:31] <&OsRavan[ODN]> cause everyone is gone 01[15:31] <~Brehon[NPO]> If we are going to start propaganda or trolling here Leet, we can just stop talking adn walk away. [15:31] <&OsRavan[ODN]> its perfectly fine to negotiate at a different front level and then just post it at once [15:31] <@Teh1337Guy> Fair enough, my point is this: [15:31] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i.e if npo/dr front agrees to terms, we'll go to sf/xx work that out [15:31] <&OsRavan[ODN]> and once everyone is agreed post in however many threads it takes [15:31] <@Teh1337Guy> You say it's almost zero even though we have just made this request to you guys. [15:32] <@Teh1337Guy> I like OsRavan[ODN] strategy [15:32] <@Daikos> As do I. 01[15:32] <~Brehon[NPO]> Then I request in good faith for TOP, CnG to shut down 01[15:32] <~Brehon[NPO]> That is my request [15:33] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what do you mean by shut down? [15:33] <&OsRavan[ODN]> as in stop warring with NPO/DR? 01[15:33] <~Brehon[NPO]> Work peace then let us work with the original front. [15:33] <&OsRavan[ODN]> the problem with that.. and ill be blunt cause i know you appreciate that.. we've been hearing things about how certain alliances wont be allowed peace [15:34] <&OsRavan[ODN]> cause they havent been punished enough [15:34] <&Kestral> we're happy to work for peace on any front, just as long as they're only put into action when we're all out 01[15:34] <~Brehon[NPO]> Lets not be gerneal lets be direct. [15:34] <&OsRavan[ODN]> 'punished' [15:34] <&Kestral> even if the deals are sorted out seperately and at different times [15:34] <&OsRavan[ODN]> my concern and i think i speak for all of cng.. is we dont want to shut down but hten find that our allies in dh are being denied terms [15:34] <&OsRavan[ODN]> and kept in some indefinite war 01[15:35] <~Brehon[NPO]> No one has desire for indefinite war. That is good CN propaganda but not realistic in any way. [15:35] <@Teh1337Guy> Right 01[15:35] <~Brehon[NPO]> Simple question: Do you feel you have lost? [15:35] <&OsRavan[ODN]> then out of curiosity why cant we agree to terms for everyone fighting npo/dr [15:35] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i mean we are all here [15:35] <&OsRavan[ODN]> we are willing to concede defeat yes 01[15:35] <~Brehon[NPO]> That is not what I asked [15:36] <@Teh1337Guy> [18:31] <~Brehon[NPO]> Then I request in good faith for TOP, CnG to shut down [15:36] <@Teh1337Guy> [18:31] <~Brehon[NPO]> That is my request [15:36] <@Teh1337Guy> [18:31] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what do you mean by shut down? // still wondering what this means [15:36] <&Kestral> we've lost, but we could keep fighting if that makes sense? [15:36] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what kestral said. we've lost clearly, but we arent toothless in our loss ::grins:: [15:36] <@Momentum> Teh1337Guy: That CnG and TOP close their fronts (peace out) first [15:36] <@Momentum> at least that's what I understood from it 01[15:37] <~Brehon[NPO]> Correct Momentum [15:37] <&OsRavan[ODN]> can you explain to me why that needs to happen first if you plan to offer dh terms? [15:37] <&quiz> may i inquire as to why that needs to happen? [15:37] <@Teh1337Guy> ^^ 01[15:37] <~Brehon[NPO]> Because they are add ons to the original war dec [15:38] <@Momentum> The same problems that could prevent a coalition wide peace will still be there when negotiating separately [15:38] <&Kestral> if we get the peace for CnG/NG etc ironed out on paper, would you be willing to then sort out the DH/DR/NPO peace terms for them to come into effect at the same time? [15:38] <&OsRavan[ODN]> brehon you always say to ask you directly, so im asking you directly. Do you intend to hold dh in war once cng peaces out? Im not sure i understand why cng can be told what would be demanded of them when you cant tell dh the same? [15:38] <&ncc[NG]> Hello, sorry I couldn't be here earlier. [15:38] <@Momentum> Hey ncc[NG] [15:39] <&OsRavan[ODN]> peacing out together for the record is something thats alwyas been allowed in all recent global wars when it was *wanted* [15:39] <@Teh1337Guy> Kestral yeah that's what I thought we're working towards here [15:39] <&ncc[NG]> Just had a quick glance over what has been said so far. [15:39] <&OsRavan[ODN]> or kestral said it well [15:39] <&ncc[NG]> Am I right in thinking that you're leaning towards peacing our front out first, and then dealing with DH separately? [15:39] <&NobodyExpects> semantics OsRavan[ODN] never happened in practice and without some "terms" attached 01[15:39] <~Brehon[NPO]> On the DH front there are additional requests we have to take into account. First and foremost reps are not on the table. White peace is not on the table. [15:39] <&NobodyExpects> I admire your CN romanticism mind [15:39] <&OsRavan[ODN]> tell us what the terms are then [15:40] <@Momentum> We can hear those terms, and we can hash separate peace terms even. 01[15:40] <~Brehon[NPO]> There is talk of limiting outside aid to them for a period of time. [15:40] <@Momentum> but the timing should be similar 02[15:40] * @AirMe|GoWanderers Quit (Ping timeout) [15:40] <&ncc[NG]> Anyone? :+ [15:40] <&Kestral> you see this had to be the concern Brehon, that if we all peace out first, what happens if these 'extra terms' end up being worse than expected? [15:40] <&ncc[NG]> Yes/No [15:41] <@Momentum> ncc[NG]: Yes [15:41] <@Daikos> Yes ncc [15:41] <&NobodyExpects> I don't believe in terms personally, only war or peace [15:41] <&Kestral> it's why we feel we can't bail on DH on this [15:41] <&ncc[NG]> Ok. Thankks. 01[15:41] <~Brehon[NPO]> Are they being charged reps, absolutely not [15:41] <&ncc[NG]> NobodyExpects: you have to wrap things up some how. :+ [15:41] <&NobodyExpects> a handshake [15:41] <&Kestral> baring in mind that CnG might be a peripheral front, but we're still a defensive one [15:41] <&Kestral> we're not talking oppourtunists here [15:42] <&OsRavan[ODN]> true but not reps leaves a lot of open ground. Can you not tell us what you want exactly? [15:42] <&Kestral> we came in for DH, so you have to see why we don't want to leave without them [15:42] <&ncc[NG]> Well, ok. But that would be your prerogative and I'm not sure the rest of your front will buy into absolutely zero terms. [15:42] <&ncc[NG]> I thought you (AI) were keen on getting Umbrella to apologize? 01[15:42] <~Brehon[NPO]> Oh I thought you came in for ODN and INT Kestral [15:42] <&ncc[NG]> That seems contradictory tbh. [15:42] <&Kestral> I was talking about CnG as a whole Brehon [15:42] <&ncc[NG]> (I'm not trying to be a dick, just wondering where you stand.) 01[15:43] <~Brehon[NPO]> give me a sec and let me pull up something [15:43] <&Kestral> of course [15:44] <&NobodyExpects> unmeant, forced and demanded apologies are less useful than !@#$ on your shoe [15:44] <@Daikos> Agreed [15:47] <&ncc[NG]> That's nice to hear! [15:47] <&ncc[NG]> Does this mean you'll be ruling out an apology as a term, then? [15:48] <&quiz> <~Brehon[NPO]> There is talk of limiting outside aid to them for a period of time. < regarding this, do you mean restricting outside aid to DH broadly or each DH alliance specifically? 01[15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> Umbrella - 5 months no outside tech deals, all AA jumpers back to their AA's, those in AA's not declared that are taking part in wars (undeclared as in jump to another AA or created an AA) that are not back will be treated as rogues without intervention: Everyone else (and NE etc correct me if I missed anything) admission of defeat and surrender (this includes Umbrella) 01[15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> DH has to do her own tech deals 01[15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> sorry Umbrella has to do her own tech deals internally 01[15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> Not outside 01[15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> at all, not even DH [15:49] <&quiz> wow no take-backs [15:49] <@Daikos> welp [15:49] <@Daikos> no chance we will ever agree to that. 01[15:49] <~Brehon[NPO]> Okay [15:50] <&quiz> is this the only term? 01[15:50] <~Brehon[NPO]> NE have I missed anything? [15:50] <&NobodyExpects> You still need to be my !@#$%* quiz that was on our forums afair [15:50] <&NobodyExpects> but that aside no seems to be the list of stuff other people have thrown out there [15:50] <&ncc[NG]> 5 months is a long time... [15:50] <&quiz> [15:50] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ive gotta ask out of curiosity. Is 'no reps' just a pr thing? it seems to me you are trying to do the damage of reps without being forced to say the word reps [15:51] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i.e pick the same itme period it would normaly cost to pay huge reps [15:51] <&quiz> and yes, five months without outside aid is worse than reparations in many regards [15:51] <&OsRavan[ODN]> and tie up slots the same as if they were paying 01[15:51] <~Brehon[NPO]> It is up to you to offer a counter. We still have a lot of alliances to talk to/with, as do you. [15:51] <&OsRavan[ODN]> if the goal here is to stunt someones growth and 'punish' them for past actions (what exactly is umbrella being punished for by the way?) why not just call a horse a horse [15:52] <&OsRavan[ODN]> im just trying to understand the logic [15:52] <&OsRavan[ODN]> both 1) why the extra demands are being leveled on umbrella. 2) my question about reps. if the goal here is to do what reps do without calling it reps why dance around? just put up a rep number [15:52] <&ncc[NG]> Can you remember when idea of restricting Umbrella's tech deals was conceived, btw? 01[15:53] <~Brehon[NPO]> Umbrella was the cause. that answers #1 [15:53] <&Kestral> so 5 months of no external aid for slot filling? [15:53] <&OsRavan[ODN]> right, but why was umbrella the cause? are you saying its 5 months with no aid cause mp slot filled? 01[15:53] <~Brehon[NPO]> for #2, are they paying anyone? No. If you feel that is not proper, then you can of course offer a counter. [15:54] <&quiz> Daikos, as you are the representative for Umbrella, what sort of terms would you be willing to accept? 03[15:54] * Sardonic has joined #hardsheep [15:54] <&OsRavan[ODN]> umbrella did the mp thing or didnt do it whatever. AI went to war with them on that cb. Then won that war. 03[15:55] * Teh1337Guy sets mode: +s [15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> so what is umbrella being punished for now? 01[15:55] <~Brehon[NPO]> If you want a philosophical debate, this is not the place for it. [15:55] <&quiz> more importantly, as kestral has pointed out, why does slot-filling merit five months of no outside aid? [15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> not philosiphical. specific [15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what has umbrella done that others have not [15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> that they are getting extra terms? 01[15:56] <~Brehon[NPO]> If you have something to offer a counter, lets here it. I am waiting for Umbrella to respond if they have something they wish to offer. [15:56] <&Kestral> Ok sure, in the meantime if I may ask a question 01[15:56] <~Brehon[NPO]> We have done (certainly I) have done the list of greviences I have with Umbrella. I have no desire to go over them again. [15:56] <@Daikos> Well it's pretty obvious that there is a strong attempt right now to cripple us for the forseable future. Everyone knows that this war was being pushed for by parties on both sides. As NobodyExpects already pointed out, false apologies are worthless. 01[15:56] <~Brehon[NPO]> By all means Kestral 01[15:57] <~Brehon[NPO]> Dont want an apology [15:57] <&Kestral> are you receptive to the idea of the peaces being sorted out seperately, but coming into effect when peace has been agreed on on all fronts? [15:57] <&NobodyExpects> Aye we dont 01[15:57] <~Brehon[NPO]> I would be willing to give that idea to the coalition for them to discuss that point of it. [15:57] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i thought the whole point here though, was we were moving past those sorta terms. That it was a new era where you had an issue with umbrella. we all fought and fought hard. and then we move on [15:57] <@Daikos> Well, I've already stated the terms you put down will never be accepted. [15:57] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i.e wasnt the whole WAR your 'punishment' [15:58] <@Teh1337Guy> ^ 01[15:58] <~Brehon[NPO]> So Daikos what do you have for a counter? [15:58] <@Daikos> And pretending they aren't reps is ludicrous. [15:58] <@Daikos> <&OsRavan[ODN]> i.e wasnt the whole WAR your 'punishment' [15:58] <Sardonic> I distinctly remember the war being the punishment being a big thing with you brehon [15:58] <&NobodyExpects> Umbrella dont want peace [15:58] <@Daikos> there you go. you gave us the punch in the mouth you wanted. [15:58] <&NobodyExpects> is there any point to this sham [15:58] <&NobodyExpects> if thats the truth of the matter? [15:58] <@Daikos> If we didn't want peace we wouldn't be here. [15:59] <&NobodyExpects> enforced surrenders are as pointless as enforced apologies after all? 01[15:59] <~Brehon[NPO]> Then this is your opportunity to offer a counter. [15:59] <&NobodyExpects> and your peace is clearly enforced [15:59] <@Teh1337Guy> Daikos has to bring it back to Natan anyways [15:59] <&OsRavan[ODN]> my counter would be we admitt you won, we shake hands and say 'good fight' and all move on [15:59] <&OsRavan[ODN]> since when did that become a bad thing? 01[15:59] <~Brehon[NPO]> I am pretty sure Leet, Daikos can talk for himself. [16:00] <@Daikos> Since it became clear the intent is to cripple Doomhouse for some time. 01[16:00] <~Brehon[NPO]> So you have no counter? [16:00] <&ncc[NG]> This doesn't seem particularly productive guys. [16:00] <&OsRavan[ODN]> my counter was legit brehon [16:00] <&Voodoo> Hello all [16:00] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i speak for all of us on that [16:00] <@Daikos> I am agreeable to what Os stated [16:01] <&OsRavan[ODN]> and if someone screws with you again [16:01] <&ncc[NG]> There's no good just shouting at them about how unjust their original suggestion is. [16:01] <&OsRavan[ODN]> you punch them in the face again [16:01] <&Kestral> I would also concur to that, a good handshake is hard to beat [16:01] <&NobodyExpects> summer solstice [16:01] <&NobodyExpects> handshakes all round [16:01] <&Kestral> plus perpetual war helps SF/XX and none of us [16:01] <&quiz> MK finds those terms agreeable 01[16:01] <~Brehon[NPO]> So end that war front [16:01] <&NobodyExpects> seems fair [16:01] <&OsRavan[ODN]> to me Nobody, based on our earlier convo, what this reads as is you trying to turn an honorable fight into a 'punishment' fight. 01[16:02] <~Brehon[NPO]> NE isn't doing anything of the osrt 01[16:02] <~Brehon[NPO]> of the sort [16:02] <&ncc[NG]> Didn't NobodyExpects say he likes no terms, fight and walk away? 01[16:02] <~Brehon[NPO]> I have given to you some of the things talkeda bout in our coalition about wants. [16:02] <&OsRavan[ODN]> im not angry, but im dissapointed in what im hearing here i have to admitt. I was under the impression that when this war was ready to end we would shake hands like adults and move on [16:03] <&Kestral> Brehon, we can't end one front before the others 01[16:03] <~Brehon[NPO]> NE likes war, that was his personal take on it, which was then used by those involved on your side to run around and push how NE wanted eternal war. [16:03] <&Kestral> you know we're not like that 01[16:03] <~Brehon[NPO]> Then it was used about how SF/XX want to keep things at war. 01[16:03] <~Brehon[NPO]> That crap has to stop [16:03] <&Kestral> and I know you wouldn't do the same if the situation was switched 01[16:03] <~Brehon[NPO]> Show the faith and shut them down. [16:03] <Sardonic> With what leverage are we supposed to do that? [16:03] <&OsRavan[ODN]> how can we do that when what you are now demanding of dh is against what youve been impling you wanted from day one [16:04] <&Kestral> it's not you lot I don't trust, but SF/XX even might then take a shot at DH for all we know 01[16:05] <~Brehon[NPO]> I was on the opposite side and was run roughshod so that pity wont work on me. As for NPO, we are right were we started NPO doesn't want reps, we are fine with it shutting down. But regardless the voice and needs of the coalition have to be met as well. If you want to do the all shut down, you now know what is having to be dealth with. So... if we can get the others shut down and Umbrella gets to dance with us, I think everyone will be more happy. 01[16:05] <~Brehon[NPO]> So shut down SF/XX 01[16:06] <~Brehon[NPO]> aka shut down the CnG front [16:06] <&Kestral> I haven't passed this by Umb, but in order for us to even consider that, we'd need a definate limit on how long the war could possibly extend for after we left [16:06] <&Kestral> and honestly, I don't see a good solution coming from that 01[16:06] <~Brehon[NPO]> Like I said, you need a counter that is more progressive than what you have stated. I can't fix your sf/xx concerns in that way, at all. 01[16:06] <~Brehon[NPO]> No one here can. [16:06] <&ncc[NG]> Brehon[NPO]: this is my concern which I'm sure you've heard from others as well as me already. [16:07] <&ncc[NG]> If we peace out this front, we (NG) specifically need something concrete to know you're not going to $%&@ over MK. [16:07] <&Kestral> it's not my SF/XX concern here [16:07] <&ncc[NG]> GOONS too, I guess. [16:07] <&Kestral> my concern is, that if we peace out that front [16:07] <&OsRavan[ODN]> right [16:07] <Sardonic> Your opening offer can't seriously be no aid for 5 months for all of DH? How are we supposed to counter that? [16:07] <&OsRavan[ODN]> im not at all worried about sf/xx they can do what they want to us [16:07] <Sardonic> It's barely even within good faith [16:07] <&Kestral> we have no control if you suddenly decide not to offer DH peace 01[16:08] <~Brehon[NPO]> $%&@ over MK how... and I bent over backwards for NG on that, you konw this. [16:08] <&ncc[NG]> I know you did. [16:08] <&quiz> so, just to be clear on what you are offering: if we opt to continue pushing for everyone to peace out at once, umbrella must go without outside aid for five months. if we opt to work towards peace on three separate fronts, umbrella (and, consequently, DH) will be kept in an indefinite period of war. [16:08] <&Voodoo> I will say this, it will be very difficult to get TOP or any alliance on our front to leave Umb or MK behind without 1) Anything concrete and 2) by assuming it's on good faith when we know the disdain you have for both [16:08] <Sardonic> This is leagues worse than reps brehon in economic damages, and I think you know that. [16:08] <&ncc[NG]> I'm just repeating my concern for the benefit of the discussion. [16:08] <&NobodyExpects> no war for a couple to a few months [16:08] <&NobodyExpects> not extending beyind the summer solstice [16:08] <&Kestral> your other problem Brehon, is that on one hand you're stating a single offer - and not budging, yet refuting any counter as 'not progressive enough' 01[16:09] <~Brehon[NPO]> I never, EVER said Umbrella or DH will be kept in an indefinite period of war. If you have a time frame or something in mind, I guess that would be your problem. [16:09] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ;:considers;: let me raise a possible counter [16:09] <&ncc[NG]> Assume we have peaced out this front, what can/will you offer to those on our side who are allied to DH. [16:09] <&OsRavan[ODN]> you let DH off with surrender, and ODN pays reps to those who feel our ally have wronged them [16:09] <&quiz> i'm not looking to put words in your mouth, Brehon[NPO], just asking for clarification 01[16:09] <~Brehon[NPO]> No reps [16:09] <&Kestral> So would you be willing to negate the external aid block, for a small window of DH/DR straight out? [16:09] <&ncc[NG]> I believe you when you say they will not be kept in an indefinite war. I'm not suggesting that. [16:10] <&Kestral> again, not passed by our side [16:10] <&Kestral> I just want to test the water 01[16:10] <~Brehon[NPO]> I would be willing to bring it to the coalition [16:10] <&OsRavan[ODN]> say we pay out 100,000 tech? (and I would need to run that by our senate) [16:10] <&ncc[NG]> But we need to have some rough idea, because it would be no good to resolve that and then for DH to be hit with e.g. 5 months no aid. [16:10] <&OsRavan[ODN]> we being only odn 01[16:10] <~Brehon[NPO]> NCC that is a fair comment. [16:10] <&NobodyExpects> no reps 01[16:10] <~Brehon[NPO]> and NPO will not allow for reps 01[16:10] <~Brehon[NPO]> No one is paying anyone anything [16:10] <&Kestral> the 5 month no external aid is worse than reps [16:10] <&ncc[NG]> This is really pseudo-reps imo. [16:10] <Sardonic> but, this is worse than reps [16:10] <Sardonic> by a lot [16:10] <&Kestral> don't kid yourself [16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what kestral said [16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what i dont like [16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> is you are saying no reps [16:11] <&ncc[NG]> quasi-reps? Whatever you want to call it. 01[16:11] <~Brehon[NPO]> But if you want peace, I need a quantifiable counter I can bring to the coalition [16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> for PR reasons [16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> but demanding something worse [16:11] <&ncc[NG]> Which is fine in and of itself, but 5 months is a long time. [16:11] <&ncc[NG]> That's my view, but that part is for DH itself to agree with you, not any of the rest of us. [16:11] <&quiz> if umbrella is to be kept at war for a definite period of time, we would like to be made aware of how long that would be [16:11] <&ncc[NG]> It is, however, unlikely we will agree to anything ourselves if that is the sort of thing which is on the table as we are leaving. 01[16:11] <~Brehon[NPO]> Quiz, NE said 2-3 months 01[16:12] <~Brehon[NPO]> Correct NE? [16:12] <&NobodyExpects> Aye and thats a negotiable number plucked from thin air [16:12] <&NobodyExpects> but indicative of how I personally see things [16:12] <@Teh1337Guy> Right 01[16:13] <~Brehon[NPO]> Let me make this simple [16:13] <&Kestral> So you'd be willing to drop the external aid stipulation for an extended war against DH? [16:13] <&Kestral> that's what you're saying with that? [16:13] <&NobodyExpects> and anyone who wishes to war with them 01[16:13] <~Brehon[NPO]> No demands of people leaving the war on our side. 01[16:14] <~Brehon[NPO]> But I think that could be a start 01[16:14] <~Brehon[NPO]> a start to finding a resolution [16:14] <&Kestral> See that's where it gets interesting Brehon [16:14] <&quiz> so, hypothetically speaking -- i am speaking out of curiosity, and am by no means implying that umbrella or DH would agree to this -- would you be willing to negotiate an extended war for a definite length of time in a peace treaty? [16:14] <&Kestral> because lets say it was just DH fighting [16:14] <&Kestral> there would surely have to be a limit on how many alliances can get in on that 01[16:14] <~Brehon[NPO]> They have a slot limit 01[16:14] <~Brehon[NPO]> So what they take is then limited to that 01[16:15] <~Brehon[NPO]> Quiz to answer your question, I think that is a hell of a start 01[16:16] <~Brehon[NPO]> Something I would have to bring to the coalition at large, again NE and I are also putting out their wants and concerns. [16:16] <&ncc[NG]> Just for clarification, these are terms which will apply only to Umbrella? [16:16] <&ncc[NG]> The rest of DH will not be subject to aid restrictions? [16:16] <&ncc[NG]> Well, would not* 01[16:16] <~Brehon[NPO]> extended war, the aid restriction. Of course no one would be able to aid or rejoin while the war was continuing. 01[16:16] <~Brehon[NPO]> ncc, yes, but no AA hoping to avoid it. [16:17] <&ncc[NG]> Okey. [16:17] <&Kestral> I still don't get why you're so insistant of getting everyone else out though, what if we just sat down now and agreed to all fight for another 2 weeks then shake hands? [16:17] <@Momentum> Extended war and then aid restriction on Umbrella? [16:17] <&ncc[NG]> This will get confusing if we are all involved for this sort of minutae though. 01[16:17] <~Brehon[NPO]> Please note the very early bit about ending the aa hoping as a whole and those that still did it to be treated as rogues without interference. [16:17] <&ncc[NG]> NobodyExpects, Brehon[NPO]: I think you need to talk to Umbrella directly about this. [16:17] <&Kestral> and brehon, to confirm what you just said, and Momentum picked up on, you wouldn't be dropping the aid restriction for the extended war? [16:17] <&quiz> <~Brehon[NPO]> Something I would have to bring to the coalition at large, again NE and I are also putting out their wants and concerns. [16:17] <&quiz> fair enough [16:17] <&ncc[NG]> Then we will be able to solve the wider war as that progresses. 01[16:18] <~Brehon[NPO]> I would bring it to the coalition [16:18] <&ncc[NG]> Thanks for starting these discussions though. 01[16:18] <~Brehon[NPO]> And this ncc is why we are also for doing the fronts vs all at once. [16:19] <&ncc[NG]> I presume you're splitting down the two broad lines, as opposed to alliance by alliance? 01[16:19] <~Brehon[NPO]> No one is looking to punish treaty defenders. It was stupid when you all did it, its stupid to do it now. 01[16:19] <~Brehon[NPO]> ncc correct [16:19] <&ncc[NG]> "you all did it" [16:19] <&ncc[NG]> ouch 01[16:19] <~Brehon[NPO]> Umbrella was the goal, you all interferred. 01[16:19] <~Brehon[NPO]> [16:19] <&Kestral> didn't you already score though? [16:19] <&ncc[NG]> Wow [16:19] <&Kestral> it feels a bit like you're teabagging the goaly with some of those aid restrictions [16:19] <&ncc[NG]> I'm going to take that as a joke. !@#$%*. :+ 01[16:19] <~Brehon[NPO]> ncc 01[16:20] <~Brehon[NPO]> Kestral I am bringing the coalition wants to the table, that is the duty NE and I have here. [16:20] <&ncc[NG]> Kestral: would have been pretty funny if Umbrella bent over and took that straight away though. [16:20] <&Kestral> I'm watching the MK invitational at the same time [16:20] <&Kestral> I couldn't help the reference 01[16:21] <~Brehon[NPO]> So umbrella is the goalie? [16:21] <&Kestral> I think so 01[16:21] <~Brehon[NPO]> Too bad it was a boxing match where there is not goalie [16:21] <&Kestral> well if umbrella was the goal, I imagine that must mean a goal against them 01[16:21] <~Brehon[NPO]> See you guys entered for the wrong reason. [16:21] <&Kestral> so they must've been the goalie [16:22] <&Kestral> I didn't see us having the choice 01[16:22] <~Brehon[NPO]> You always have a choice. 01[16:22] <~Brehon[NPO]> Always [16:22] <&Kestral> we do love us some CnG [16:22] <Sardonic> Seriously though [16:22] <&Kestral> yeah but I like what CnG stands for a little too much to squidge it into the mud and leave ODN and Int to it [16:22] <Sardonic> aid restrictions? 01[16:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> Lets all remember how negotiations work... something is offered, something is counter offered. 01[16:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> If we are going to complain about them, well we have the OWF for that. [16:23] <&Kestral> yes, but our counter offers weren't progressive enough [16:23] <&Kestral> so you ignored them 01[16:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> Quiz had a solid question /counter in there 01[16:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> if I recall [16:23] <&Kestral> lets not get into double standards now [16:23] <&Kestral> sure [16:23] <Sardonic> you talk big about wanting shorter wars with light terms, but your starting offer is a half of year of economic starvation? 01[16:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> Where I said I would bring it back to the coalition 01[16:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> Yeah those kinds of things suck dont they Sard. [16:24] <&NobodyExpects> I am for longer wars with non terms Sard [16:24] <&Kestral> and yet you're not after TLR, and our consitutents probably got you the last nasty reps NPO faced? [16:24] <Sardonic> so, forced disbandment then, NobodyExpects? 01[16:24] <~Brehon[NPO]> But like I said, give a real counter offer. If that counter offer is a period of additional war with Umbrella or etc, okay, I can take that back. [16:24] <&Kestral> even if I don't think GR had a seat at the table... [16:24] <Sardonic> you're going to need a time machine then, the inititive era died a long time ago [16:24] <&Kestral> I think it has to be taken as a legitemate counter offer Brehon 01[16:24] <~Brehon[NPO]> Oh stop the dramatics Sard. [16:24] <&NobodyExpects> lol Sard [16:25] <&Kestral> the idea that we just shake hands like adults and walk away 01[16:25] <~Brehon[NPO]> Which Kestral? [16:25] <Sardonic> I was making a joke [16:25] <&NobodyExpects> that was weak at best 02[16:25] * @Momentum Quit (Ping timeout) 01[16:25] <~Brehon[NPO]> So is it shake hands and walk away or extended war with Umbrella [16:26] <&Kestral> well that depends, if you're feeling really nice my nation could even use some tech back 01[16:26] <~Brehon[NPO]> So again... is your counter a or b [16:26] <&Kestral> I think we need to clarify something anyway [16:26] <&Kestral> on both sides 01[16:26] <~Brehon[NPO]> if its a, this went no where, if its b, then we have something to discuss with our coalition. [16:26] <&Kestral> the idea of an extended warwith Umbrella [16:26] <&Kestral> are people assuming that to mean just Umbrella, or DH too? [16:26] <&ncc[NG]> Brehon[NPO]: we can't speak for Umbrella. 01[16:26] <~Brehon[NPO]> You tell me [16:27] <&Kestral> yeah b does seem more likely, but I think that's Umb's call 01[16:27] <~Brehon[NPO]> Umbrella is here. [16:27] <&ncc[NG]> Oh, well it'd be nice to hear them 01[16:27] <~Brehon[NPO]> god I agree [16:27] <&ncc[NG]> (not something I ever thought I'd say) [16:27] <&NobodyExpects> Aye [16:27] <&Kestral> I'm meaning both side Brehon, I was just wondering how you were interpreting this [16:27] <&Kestral> consider it testing the water if you will [16:27] <@Daikos> We are interested in an extended war depending on those involved and length. [16:27] <&Kestral> trying to figure what will actually float each way 01[16:27] <~Brehon[NPO]> Honestly Kestral, I am fine with either. 01[16:28] <~Brehon[NPO]> Daikos you only have so many slots 01[16:28] <~Brehon[NPO]> So if we fill them it doesn't much amtter who is filling them. 01[16:28] <~Brehon[NPO]> If you want that limited lets here it. 01[16:28] <~Brehon[NPO]> aka give me a solid counter offer. [16:29] <@Daikos> Well first I would want to know if you want it with just us or DH as a whole. 01[16:29] <~Brehon[NPO]> make an offer [16:30] <@Daikos> I'd have to discuss with the rest of my alliance and Doomhouse before we even began to make an offer. 01[16:30] <~Brehon[NPO]> k [16:30] <&Kestral> at least this talk has been a step in the right direction though [16:31] <Sardonic> yes, the table has been set [16:31] <Sardonic> even if somebody decided to stick a knife into it like some sort of viking action hero 01[16:31] <~Brehon[NPO]> Like I said, I have to give the coalition wants without putting out who is saying it. The coalition folks have to be heard. 01[16:32] <~Brehon[NPO]> So I put it on the table, asked for a counter. you all (DH) have to talk about that counter... good. [16:33] <Sardonic> well I can't speak for anybody but goons but I'd be fine with an extended war, within reason. [16:33] <&Kestral> lets just hope any talks with SF/XX can go so well 01[16:33] <~Brehon[NPO]> Kestral on that front... what are you willing to offer 01[16:33] <~Brehon[NPO]> So I can bring all information back [16:33] <&Kestral> I'm not sure to be quite honest 01[16:33] <~Brehon[NPO]> Well you are here lets make the most of it. [16:34] <&Kestral> I'd honestly like to think that everyone involved saw it as a clean peripheral front, and we could just white peace it out [16:34] <&Kestral> I don't think reps should be on the table 01[16:34] <~Brehon[NPO]> alright 01[16:34] <~Brehon[NPO]> is surrender/defeat an avaialable offer? [16:34] <&Kestral> so yeah, my offer has to be shaking hands and congratulating them [16:34] <&Kestral> sure 01[16:34] <~Brehon[NPO]> Alright. 01[16:34] <~Brehon[NPO]> TOP what about you? 06[16:35] * ~Brehon[NPO] nudges Voodoo [16:35] <&Voodoo> I'd have to discuss it with the legislature 01[16:35] <~Brehon[NPO]> Please do. [16:35] <&Voodoo> As we've mentioned previously when DT offered, white peace would work just fine. Everyone walks away like gentlemen 01[16:35] <~Brehon[NPO]> So outside of that you have nothing to offer? 01[16:35] <~Brehon[NPO]> ahh alright 01[16:36] <~Brehon[NPO]> is surrender/defeat an available offer? [16:36] <&Voodoo> If the Heptagon supports it, I'll let the front know 01[16:36] <~Brehon[NPO]> Very good. [16:37] <&NobodyExpects> we are on that front Voodoo so pls dont forget us, its been known to happen [16:37] <&Voodoo> We told your allies to contact you [16:37] <Sardonic> oh please don't start that BS [16:37] <&Voodoo> and I'll leave it at that 01[16:38] <~Brehon[NPO]> Voodoo, you are capable of contacting Ai directly 01[16:38] <~Brehon[NPO]> or NPO 01[16:38] <~Brehon[NPO]> so lets not play games. [16:38] <&Voodoo> I'm not. NPO wasn't on the front and AI's allies are also more than capable. The OWF propaganda doesn't work here 01[16:39] <~Brehon[NPO]> So now NPO is, and as NE has stated, contact there whould be. [16:39] <&Voodoo> It's a moot point 01[16:39] <~Brehon[NPO]> Exactly Voodoo so don't be a !@#$. [16:39] <&Kestral> but he's so good at it 01[16:40] <~Brehon[NPO]> Oh I agree [16:40] <&Kestral> but the petulance from both sides is getting just slightly stale 01[16:41] <~Brehon[NPO]> Voodoo give Ai the respect to talk to them directly since you attacked them. No propaganda no anything. Do the right thing. 03[16:41] * &Voodoo has left #hardsheep 03[16:41] * Voodoo has joined #hardsheep 03[16:41] * ChanServ sets mode: +oa Voodoo Voodoo [16:41] <&Voodoo> Damn keyboard 01[16:42] <~Brehon[NPO]> heh [16:42] <&Voodoo> Brehon, as I said. It's a moot point, so whatever makes you sleep better at night. 06[16:42] * ~Brehon[NPO] sighs [16:42] <&Voodoo> Now, can we move on? [16:43] <&Voodoo> Ok, good. Contact will be given to the front 01[16:43] <~Brehon[NPO]> See how easy that was 01[16:44] <~Brehon[NPO]> Any other issues/fronts or etc that need questions/comments etc? [16:44] <Sardonic> Brehon, Is condesention really warranted? 01[16:44] <~Brehon[NPO]> I would ask the same [16:44] <Sardonic> not from me [16:45] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ok gang its superl ate and ive got an early and busy day [16:45] <&OsRavan[ODN]> so night [16:45] <&quiz> see you OS [16:45] <@Teh1337Guy> Nope. I imagine MK will peace out our various SF/XX fronts with TOP/CnG [16:45] <@Daikos> I have nothing else. [16:45] <@Teh1337Guy> however they want to proceed with those, we are willing to do so as they will 03[16:47] * Dre4mwe4ver|GATO () has joined #hardsheep 02[16:48] * &Dre4m Quit (Quit: something broke)

Me too!

Tywin, OsRavan recognizes (rather, respects) no categorizations/labels/whathaveyou because his "philosophy" (it is not one, but we must give it some name) begins and ends with a propaganda line from a war that was over before his nation ever existed: Friends>infra. He makes no secret of it, he is quite proud to be a completely OOC anomaly with no considerations of anything except whose toes taste best this week. It is the nonhuman mindset which causes him to believe that those of us who are living natives of this planet will destroy the world by living in it in the way Admin created us. He is a chummy monster.

Good evening, I'm your host Schattenmann, and this is This Week in Os's World, your number one source for news from that land beyond the clouds. Three years ago, I had the privilege of bringing to you the wackiest world I know: Os's World, where as I put it then, "up is down and circle is square." It is a craven world, which defies even the most brilliant minds because it is simply an altogether alien place. Do not adjust your sets, the image on your screen is as it is in Os's World. Tonight, we return to Os's World. Why? Because once again Os's World collides with Reality, and so we must. Is the topic at hand of earth-shattering importance? No. Is it nonetheless fun? You betcha. What have we got? In Os's World, OsCraven continues to declare, 3 years on, that he did not offer to pay 100,000 in tech reparations from ODN coffers in return for a guarantee of white peace for Umbrella. This is a settled matter except for one man: The man who said it, who says he never did. And because he will not simply own his words, they must be repeated to him. On no account, small or large, can the sane minds of Reality allow Os's World to supplant truth. And so below are the excerpted logs of that exchange. The setting On the 14th of March 2011--a Thursday in Reality but Oppositeday in Os's World where all 11 days of the week are Oppositeday--Brehon met with the losers to discuss the terms of their surrender. But before any terms could be discussed, the losers started asking favors to negotiate peace for the entire war rather than just one front, and declined to go any further. They feared that Equilibrium was going to peace out C&G and then keep DoomHouse in permanent war, which they had started as a rumor themselves then apparently started believing themselves. This circular discussion continued for some time, and the losers eventually got Brehon to say what terms were being considered for Umbrella. [15:42] <&OsRavan[ODN]> true but not reps leaves a lot of open ground. Can you not tell us what you want exactly? ... [15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> Umbrella - 5 months no outside tech deals, all AA jumpers back to their AA's, those in AA's not declared that are taking part in wars (undeclared as in jump to another AA or created an AA) that are not back will be treated as rogues without intervention: Everyone else (and NE etc correct me if I missed anything) admission of defeat and surrender (this includes Umbrella) [15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> DH has to do her own tech deals [15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> sorry Umbrella has to do her own tech deals internally [15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> Not outside [15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> at all, not even DH Now, in truth, the most harsh terms wishlist in the coalition was only 3 mos no outside aid. As a denizen of Reality, Brehon expected the losers to make a counter offer of less months. Boy, was he naive. No Reps is Reps on Oppositeday Equilibrium made it very clear that we were not asking for, nor did we even want, reparations. However, after 3 years of extracting reparations on behalf of his allies, in Os's World no reps means reps. [15:50] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ive gotta ask out of curiosity. Is 'no reps' just a pr thing? it seems to me you are trying to do the damage of reps without being forced to say the word reps [15:51] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i.e pick the same itme period it would normaly cost to pay huge reps [15:51] <&OsRavan[ODN]> and tie up slots the same as if they were paying 01[15:51] <~Brehon[NPO]> It is up to you to offer a counter. We still have a lot of alliances to talk to/with, as do you. [15:51] <&OsRavan[ODN]> if the goal here is to stunt someones growth and 'punish' them for past actions (what exactly is umbrella being punished for by the way?) why not just call a horse a horse [15:52] <&OsRavan[ODN]> im just trying to understand the logic [15:52] <&OsRavan[ODN]> both 1) why the extra demands are being leveled on umbrella. 2) my question about reps. if the goal here is to do what reps do without calling it reps why dance around? just put up a rep numbe 01[15:53] <~Brehon[NPO]> Umbrella was the cause. that answers #1 [15:53] <&Kestral> so 5 months of no external aid for slot filling? [15:53] <&OsRavan[ODN]> right, but why was umbrella the cause? are you saying its 5 months with no aid cause mp slot filled? [15:53] <~Brehon[NPO]> for #2, are they paying anyone? No. If you feel that is not proper, then you can of course offer a counter. [15:54] <&OsRavan[ODN]> umbrella did the mp thing or didnt do it whatever. AI went to war with them on that cb. Then won that war. [15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> so what is umbrella being punished for now? [15:55] <~Brehon[NPO]> If you want a philosophical debate, this is not the place for it. [15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> not philosiphical. specific [15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what has umbrella done that others have not [15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> that they are getting extra terms? [15:56] <~Brehon[NPO]> If you have something to offer a counter, lets here it. I am waiting for Umbrella to respond if they have something they wish to offer. [15:57] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i thought the whole point here though, was we were moving past those sorta terms. That it was a new era where you had an issue with umbrella. we all fought and fought hard. and then we move on [15:59] <&OsRavan[ODN]> my counter would be we admitt you won, we shake hands and say 'good fight' and all move on As a bonus there at the end, in Os's World, you get to spend 3 years squeezing alliances for extended war, billions in reps, and forced apologies, then when you lose, the ~New Era~ of white peace begins. This is a truly mad world. The Offer And so we come to it. Brehon and Equilibrium made it crystal clear that no reparations were wanted by anyone. But once the losers all convinced themselves that an embargo is reparations, OsRavan started offering actual reparations against our will. [16:09] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ;:considers;: let me raise a possible counter [16:09] <&OsRavan[ODN]> you let DH off with surrender, and ODN pays reps to those who feel our ally have wronged them [16:09] <~Brehon[NPO]> No reps [16:10] <&OsRavan[ODN]> say we pay out 100,000 tech? (and I would need to run that by our senate) [16:10] <&OsRavan[ODN]> we being only odn [16:10] <&NobodyExpects> no reps [16:10] <~Brehon[NPO]> and NPO will not allow for reps [16:10] <~Brehon[NPO]> No one is paying anyone anythin [16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what i dont like [16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> is you are saying no reps [16:11] <&ncc[NG]> quasi-reps? Whatever you want to call it. [16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> for PR reasons [16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> but demanding something worse At this point, Os inexplicably shuts up for the next 30 minutes and the talks conclude without further intrusions from Os's World. In the intervening years, OsCraven has continually denied, as he did again today, that he ever offered 100,000 tech in reparations (contingent, of course, on the Senate) on behalf of Umbrella, to be paid by ODN alone. We cannot know why. He knows that there it is in black-and-white. He could ineffectively lie and say that it was a joke, and everyone would know that he is full of crap, but that is not his choice. He chooses to continue to deny Reality. He lives in Os's World. For This Week, I'm Schattenmann, bidding you good night, and good luck from somewhere over the rainbow.

You have lost the respect of Os Hamels.

You could, but you would look as stupid as you are since Dajobo will tell anyone he considers himself a moralist. No, actually, I do it even when you're not around. My Os routine gets all the crowds on their feet. I did a sold-out show for former ODN members in TOP last week, it was swell. If they do, will you make Polaris apologize if I step on them and twist my heel around?

Such as?

HAHAHAHA I completely forgot about that. That's hilarious. My first foray into psychological warfare. It's hilarious that I was ~6 mos older than you and we were the same NS. Nation building, schmation building. IRON is a better name than GGA. I got my first ZI threat when I trolled post war that Duncan King's micro ICON fought harder against me than IRON. DarkMistress said I was breaching my surrender hahaha.

Walsh, I do not have any illusion (or disillusions) of grandeur as regards SRA vs. whoever. Margrave's Schattenmania simply brings up soaring discussions that 90% are clueless about. I'm not going to argue you about the Polaris-NSO war, I think you mischaracterize it, and reality (always reality!) shows you false, for we consolidated no- nor attempted to consolidate any power, simply executed a war. But it's not my point in the first place and in either event whether you are right or wrong I agree that honor is horse!@#$ in the eye of the beholder, which is why I never had any use for it. My only disagreement with you (that matters on topic) is that it is silly to argue that support of an ally is different than support of their cause, and/or of the cause that brought them to war. Your "defense" (which is offense) is allegiance to a cause. Your mouth cannot separate your ass from its current reality. You might reduce your thinking to that level, but that doesn't make it so, now you're out here in the world. And regardless of it all, look all of you at Walsh's example, which addresses the idea rather than the man.

In another age I have already written essay upon essay denouncing the man who fights for nothing but his so-called fwiends. This mindless marching in line with shoulder-shrugging mumbles about the virtue of blind-mute friendship is the womb of the greatest misdeeds in history. Friendship is not policy, it is not philosophy. Friendship, huh! Bilrow, Tela, SAM, and all the rest were great friends of Electron Sponge, that's what made it so easy to stomp on \m/'s skull without any regard of principles. Friendship is a Viceroy who smiles at you. Friendship is SRA nuking Legion in support of an ally but not in support of a war, hah! Friendship is willful ignorance. It is cognitive dissonance, it is a sickness. Honor, as I have said over and over since 2008, is a fallacy that criminals robe themselves in to dupe the simpleminded; if honor is anything that those who claim to be honorable have ever been, then it is the greatest vice on this planet, and I have never wanted anything to do with it. If you want to know anything about the ideals of Vox Populi, look no further than the alliance affiliations of its founders Starfox, Doitzel, Schattenmann, Moridin--more in Polaris than anywhere. But you are ignorant of what we (who were concerned with principles at all) believed, as you have already amply demonstrated. Like so many, many others, you seek to co-opt a revolution, replacing your values for its own to suit your self-serving teleological ends. You all cheered our real principles then when you were eating dirt and ash, in years since it's not so convenient or easy anymore. I have done it, no living man has anything to say to me about Vox Populi. There was only one post-Vox alliance which lasted beyond a few weeks, it is the one you branded a joke because you didn't like its name. Where were you when Cult of Justitia was working to maintain one sphere on which unaligneds could be secure? Where were you when Justitia's Cult was fighting against Pandora's Box and Doom House's wars of reps extraction? Where were you while I was fighting Grub's moral imperialism? Oh, whoops, I guess you probably loved that. Where were you when the 20 nations of the only alliance that espoused Vox ideals was being squeezed for $500,000,000 in reparations for sticking to its ideals? Where were you while MK was advancing the ideology of "Creative Annihilation"? I know where I was, it is the same place I am today, in the desert with my ideals which you at once praise and claim I've abandoned without ever apparently knowing what even one of them was much less ever lifting a finger to effect in the world yourself. I'm certain it is very satisfying for you to criticize me for abandoning ideals that you never once shed a bit of skin for yourself. Why is it me alone that you can even attempt to criticize in this manner? Because I am the only one left who adheres to the ideals. I defy anyone to throw the past in my face. I am very old indeed, but I have never become the monster, that is why I have but little friends. It would have been easy, but I drink alone.

While I was fighting, fighting, fighting against the system that fostered your deepest wound, you were gone, gone, gone. The world is different, damn near a century has passed, Polaris is different, and the only AA that had any respect at all for the principles I espouse still. And where do you stand now? Shoulder to shoulder with the alliances who put muscle behind billions in post-Karma reps in war after war of unwarranted aggression while you, an absentee, dare presume to preach my revolution to me? You don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. The defense of Polaris in spite of Polaris because of the principles involved sparked the revolution you hold so dear (but had so very little to do with). If we followed your present mindset then, Vox Populi never would have happened. Your inability to see the forest for the trees coupled with your flight when the going got rough make anything you have to say to me nothing more than therapy for yourself, it has not a bit of bearing on my thinking. It is small thinking, shell-shocked, addled 2007 thinking. Then you are slaves to circumstance, unthinking lumps. It is better that you pick an ally and merge.

If you actually can't distinguish my use of "us" to mean our side rather than only Polaris, then you're either more stupid or less intelligent than I've previously figured.

This would feel better for you if I had any idea who you are or any memory of you ever speaking to me in the past. Esteemed colleagues, the patient exhibits primary symptoms of Schattenmania. Having no intellectual recourse, he begins to foam at the mouth and engage in a discussion of the man rather than the idea. Here we see secondary accompaniment of red panties and embroidered robe in attempt to garner attention from the object of his maniacal desire. If the Schattenmann continues with the idea, the mania deepens, if the Schattenmann indulges, he is dragged into the episode.

To love oneself is the beginning of a lifelong romance -Doitzel Wilde

Thank you for describing the process of joining and supporting a coalition. Now I know that you know that you're part of the coalition that you're in, and you need simply release yourself from confused wishful declarations of intentions which do not match reality, which is simple enough. You have joined DS, NPO, DBDC in their attack against us. If that's not what you want, then you shouldn't have done it. But you have, and you will not worm your way out of it with mealy-mouthed equivocations which fool no one. No, it's more like a nation joining an alliance and then saying "I'm not in this alliance!" Our line on aid gives alliances the benefit of the doubt because their members quite often do make their own mistakes. SRA has made its decision in full knowledge of what it's doing whether Walshington wants to match rhetoric to reality or not. I'm rubber you're glue... Any more fifth graders in the audience?