Don Chele

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1328121438' post='2912647'] First of all that was a great post Rampage, thank you. To once again make note of the part of the situation that concerns my alliance, however, please recall this: Yes, of course the nations expected Kait to fight back. However, we did not anticipate her to fight back as a member of Ragnarok. It became even more confusing when she continued to attack on the second day [i]while we were in negotiations.[/i] The issue at first was that they never came to MK to discuss accepting a member whom was at war with us (Yes, I realize the point of contention here that they are arguing is that she was a member the whole time, but lets look at it from my perspective for once too). We had moved on from this and were negotiating, it would seem logical for KK to realize that she should probably stop striking while we sorted it out. From the get-go I had been recognizing Adel as the "legit" government, and actually I had been the one reaching out to Adel to resolve this issue. To have more nukes come down on the second day while we were sorting things out is a slap in the face. Sorry, but I'm not just going to keep taking that sitting down and letting it get swept up under the "internal turmoil" carpet. [/quote] [quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1328122343' post='2912659'] You two blithering idiots do realize that in the span of twenty minutes I've both acknowledged, respected, and responded to Rampage's post, while you guys have gone on spouting about god knows what [i]and ignored my post, precisely what you were accusing the "[alliances that dominate] this thread" of doing[/i]? And you honestly wonder why people stop feeling any motivation to bring more discourse to this place? [/quote] I suppose I am clearly the most obtuse person in this thread. That conceded, I actually agree with most of your reply as presented, but I was intentionally avoiding comment on the negotiations between MK and RoK regarding KK's nukes because I personally lack all the facts and therefore cannot say who is or isn't right. I don't believe she lacked the right to nuke those attacking her, but I accept that it is entirely possible that she should have laid off if negotiations in good faith were ongoing and MK had stopped attacking her. My point was only meant to address questions of the legitimacy of Adel as leader of RoK, which you say you accept. I don't think I'm arguing with you, or at least I don't intend to be.

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1328121799' post='2912652'] Because it's easier to sell. [/quote] Alliances with superior power should have the stones not to rely on the easiest sales pitch in an echo chamber.

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1328121379' post='2912646'] Why do they have to be unrelated? Ilyani was a great partner for most of them, but more or less just a temporary excuse to[i] not[/i] roll Ragnarok for the moment. Hell, I have doubts that becoming an unquestioning puppet would've stopped that. [/quote] If people want to roll RoK, nothing is stopping them from just saying "we are going to roll RoK because we don't like them". I don't see why they need to operate under the pretext that it has anything to do with RoK allegedly violating their own charter and choosing a new leader.

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1328120764' post='2912639'] It's like everyone's just going to ignore Rampage. Hey! It's exactly what I thought happened. All the best RoK. [/quote] It just goes to show that the alliances dominating this thread see the situation as little more than a vehicle to advance their unrelated agendas. I suppose it would be naive to expect more. Clearly RoK has no right to self-determination regarding their internal function...

[quote name='Rampage3' timestamp='1328119759' post='2912626'] Overall this has been a sorry last two weeks for me. I had to retire. No choice. Things that I needed to do that were much more important [ooc] than a game[ooc]. In my view Rok needed someone who could devote more time to her than I could. I chose Bob as my successor because he worked his way up the ranks fair and square. In fact, he was selected as Regent by Kait and was very nearly picked by her over me to be Emperor. Joe and Adel were both Chancellors, 3rd in line in my administration. For him to select Joe as Regent was also no surprise. When Bob told me that he informed MK that Kait and Hoo were no longer on the AA and free to be attacked, it is not what I would have done but it was his call to make. I understood that and even told him that if someone came for me and them having me would clear Rok's debt, I would do it and enjoy the ride down. Had he simply done what he said to me that day then likely we would not be here. Perhaps some would have left, but perhaps others could have spoken to him, changed his mind, worked things out in an amicable way. SOMETHING. However, that is not what happened. Bob and Joe proceeded in OOC attacks on Kait, attacks that he had subsequently said to me were partly in jest. No matter the motivation, those OOC attacks sparked an outrage among the membership that ended up where we are now. By the time I realized what was going on (remember...retired. RL issues) the forums were down, and only restored after Kait was contacted and had them restored herself. Adel is the Empress of Ragnarok. PERIOD. No amount of posturing by anyone changes that fact on the ground. Joe and Bob have no support in Ragnarok after what happened and though I wish dissent and Bob's mistakes could have been handled differently, it wasn't. Adel has the support of Rok's warriors and that is the only way you can lead. To MK, I know that you are not without reason. The Kait situation is a mess, but let's be honest: any raider that hit Kait, no matter the reason, was going to get nuked by Kait. You knew that when you came to her door. I sincerely hope that we can clear this mess up and, if you prefer, I will make myself available to assist in that regard should you think that helpful. Bob and Joe are smart guys, guys that I trusted and who served Rok well for a very long time. I feel no joy in the fact that it has come to this. In the end however, one must realize that a revolution has occurred. Adel, a member of RC for nearly a year, has taken the throne carried by the support of the vast majority of Ragnarok. She will find that the crown can be heavy, and I hope that she will have the strength for the coming trials. o/ Rok EDIT: Proofreading ftw [/quote] This is the most clearheaded analysis of the situation I have seen in this entire thread, and it makes me sad that I have little faith it will be respected.

Congrats NPO. Is that the sound of jackboots I hear in the distance? May your heels find many deserving landing places.

Congrats Goons. I like the pip.

[quote name='LordDarknessOfLight' timestamp='1327371433' post='2905913'] Schatt, do you see any potential of new antagonist rising in CN that would also make a change in CN history? [/quote] I, for one, see goonS as a potential rising antagonist. Should they grow tired of being the DH tech farm during peacetime, and frontline ground meat during war, they might actually be a powerful, independent alliance in their own right. Of course, I have no idea whether they actually prefer to stay in their place in the pecking order. Not every dog is predisposed to eat first. Some are perfectly willing to play the beta role, and such dogs will never be antagonists. Precisely because so few alliances have the character portrayed by the forum posting of their most bored members, it is truly difficult to predict change.

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1327351980' post='2905694'] Are you threatning me No my point to Schatt is simple he may not like our leadership but to call us stupid is over the top imo. But then again im biased. [/quote] I can assure you, Schatt has high hopes that in his next five years he will see Mj rise to be a beacon for the free world. He expects that you have both the intellect and the might to do great things, if you collectively choose to do so. Hopefully free will doesn't disappoint Lady Justitia yet again...

[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1327387082' post='2906063'] Finally, someone aknowledges me for my part in the evil hegemony! Despite the 'I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids' zinger, i'm still going to take this as a compliment. [/quote] Minions are people too, and as such should be given an occasional pat on the back.

[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1327383464' post='2906034'] ... After all this back and forth, are you seriously saying the only thing i got wrong was the order? Changing 'Arbitrary opinion/i was in vox/evil hegemony' to 'Evil hegemony/arbitrary opinion/i was in vox' does not require this much discussion. [/quote] Nobody is saying the statements that you, specifically and individually, make are arbitrary. Your statements quite apparently follow a well defined formula provided to you by your intellectual betters in your alliance's sphere of influence. To that extent, I agree that my fellow Justitians were unfair in calling "all" of the statements made in this forum arbitrary. Many of them are based upon the well defined directives of decision-makers, who make arbitrary decisions above your pay grade.

I could name a few nation rulers I'd like to see on the pointy end of a stick, but I don't think I have anything against any ruler or alliance that could be characterized as a grudge. I do recognize that they exist for a lot of people, though, and because of that I think they are an important tool in any manipulator's toolkit. Grudges, like resentments and paranoid fears, are easy strings to pull to affect the behavior of another individual or alliance. I don't see them as good or bad, just an alternatively useful or problematic (depending on whether the manipulation is for or against your interests) fact of life. In my very limited experience (only having been a neutral menace and Schattenfan in my CN career), I have found dealing with the personal or historical grudges of my alliance mates to be more interesting than those external alliance grudges that results in crusades seeking a renewed sense of self-worth. It is quite interesting when the majority of the alliance and applicants no longer know why the name Valid de Impala is taboo or why "merger" is a dirty word among green alliances (LoL: color politics). It's not bad, but grudges don't make much sense internally when the minority were around to experience the causation. I suppose my experiences just lead me to believe that most alliance "grudges" are specious and pretextual, at least to the extent that they are used as the rationale for contemporary actions, which makes them an entirely typical rationale around here. /me misses the days when grudges were reserved for a good old fashioned ragequit.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323840350' post='2877371'] VE elected to start the last war, which was a beatdown, and they lost 10% of their membership (30+ nations) despite winning, so it's not as if their NS loss was "damage." If a smelly slob sits down next to you on the bus, do you hail him because you happen to be on the same bus? But then again, that's the nature of the mindless hail. [/quote] Hush Schattenmann... they're just trying to wish you and their eternal MADP partners a VEry merry Christmas. [IMG]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g27/igobydrew/cn%20dump/GreenBoots75dpi.jpg[/IMG]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323838245' post='2877298'] Funny picture. [/quote] bahahaha. VE is quite the schnauzer these days it seems.

[quote=Omni] I think I'd like a lawyer. [/quote] plenty of e-Lawyers around these parts... edit: quote fail

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1323357809' post='2869207'] As long as we're on the same page. People will continue to do what they do, and we'll continue to do what we do (charge reps for attacking us). Hopefully nobody acts surprised. [img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris9_9L2.jpg[/img] [/quote] [i]I[/i] won't be surprised when you continue to be yourselves, surely someone will pretend to be for the sake of filling a thread with their politics. That shouldn't surprise anyone either.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1323356994' post='2869192'] You might have a point if people on the other side were universally hitting everyone, but there was a pretty big dogpile on GOONs when plenty of other targets existed. It wasn't so much that GOONs was hit along with everyone else, most of the alliances opted to hit just us. It wasn't "defending this side" so much as "let's dogpile GOONs." If you really were worried about the reps, there were plenty of other outlets available that would still be honoring treaties to your side. So you can't honestly be surprised when you have to pay reps. If that was "the plan," then take up the reps with whoever came up with it. "The plan" was literally to send alliances at us knowing they'd end up paying reps. [/quote] I'm not expressing surprise, I think I said that. As for "dog-piling" GOONs, you are surely able to see that the choice of which third of your alliance was hit was a function of which third of the alliances that hit you were sent to fight the war. Umbrella certainly doesn't have targets that small, and MK has few. Your defacto alliance is divided by tier, which is fine. Umbrella gets the tech, MK gets to tell you both what to do, and you get to bear the brunt of wars and collect reps. It works for everyone and nobody is surprised on the outside when it works exactly as it was apparently designed to. People will continue to "dog-pile" GOONs, though, for as long as people use this brilliant[sic] strategy of only marching out their tech farms to war and hiding their Umbrella or MK ranged nations in peacemode until it is time to pay reps.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1323354269' post='2869140'] This whole act of pretending to be surprised when allies defend each other against your aggression is beyond absurd. [/quote] I don't think they act surprised at all. I think that they have been very clear about the fact that they expect allies to defend each other, and pre-empt those allies who don't. When Beefspari says "hit goons, pay reps" it is quite obvious that this means "have treaty ties to anyone on the opposite side of a war from goons, pay reps". Moral judgments about this aside, I don't think that policy of theirs is news to anyone or something they pretend doesn't exist.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323205075' post='2866018'] The CoJ contemporary praise band is Justitia and the Holograms. [/quote] Holographic musicianship allows our music to reach many simultaneous audiences. Much more efficient than a multi-stop tour.

[quote name='ShouAS' timestamp='1323149284' post='2865297'] It's a treaty, but we won't tell you what kind My bet is on an MDAP with a clause about publicly frowning on immoral behaviour of others [/quote] We debated an optional/mandatory frowning clause, and after much deliberation came to an agreement. I can tell you that there is a frowning clause, but you don't need to know the terms.

[center][IMG]http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m325/SigrunO/CA_FLAG_New-1.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff246/cndump/Flags/flagAS6.png[/IMG] [/center] Confederatio Æsir and the Cult of Justitia have enjoyed a friendship for some time now. Over that time, we have come to realize that we consistently agree upon things and, more importantly, that we trust each other. As such, we have decided to recognize this friendship with a military treaty. [font="Palatino Linotype"][b][size="4"]Enacted[/size][/b][/font] [code]Schattenmann Sigrun Vapneir Moussing Odensdotter Presbyter, CoJ Queen of the Æsir, Confederatio Æsir Kahn Apostolos, CoJ Don Chele Dadouchos, CoJ [/code]

How many total terms is that for you now, prob? Also, I approve of the number whatever it is and feel strongly that it should double

Think of the children!

[quote name='Bill Wallace' timestamp='1321585460' post='2846133'] Congrats to two alliances who both realize that their place in this world is to forever take the position that spitting into the wind is their destiny. Forever underdogs and nothing more. In a weird way, I'm envious. [/quote] But you misunderstand. With our noses as high in the air as we normally hold them, and the wind blowing as hard as it often does out of the mouths of blowhards, our spit most often lands in the faces of those standing behind us.

This treaty must be pretty good. Schatt posted and it convinced the turdburglars to come out from under their bridges to call someone other than Schatt irrelevant... must be a first. Good job Overclockers, I knew we liked you for a reason