KainIIIC

And is there anything inherently wrong with commending the role that you played during this conversation? We also invented teh internetz. But hey, just as NPO and RoK are known for viceroys, we're known for White Peace. I believe it would be done on a case-by-case basis if you submit an application.

this alliance scares me. It's playing with mental fire to put a bunch of limbaugh supporters in the same group. >_< but eh, good luck.

Great show rooman, you're certainly a more entertaining opposition than some of the others. Although I still think that this still applies

You just simply have an undying hate for Moldavi. Maybe it's time to step down from your high horse. In any event, NSO is open to all Karma leaders, current or former, regardless of their status on such lists.

I think mentioning it is more of a joke than anything else.

I have a feeling that future Sith Empire announcements will inevitably become an IC talkfest between the NSO, TJO and IAA.

LOL! seriously, 5 days ago I posted a chart of RoK followed by the youtube link to that song in the NSO privy chan. And erm, maybe we'll have to wait a few days (maybe tomorrow) for NSO to join the race again.

what ever happened to that European nationalist alliance that you had created like 2 or 3 weeks earlier?

Expect NSO to join the race tomorrow.

A preconceived, planned and definite attempt to boost NpO's average NS.

This looks pretty sweet. Hope it succeeds! By the way, what rights are given to the Sindar, Teleri and Vanyar? Who's the coolest Noldor? The most uncool?

They've pretty much lost 1/2 their NS since the war began. Probably the only Karma alliance to do so? (or maybe OV too?)

w00t! Go Polar! o/ Frostbite

At this rate, it will be less than a week before Polar passes MHA in terms of NS. Oh, and I expect tLC to win the team score tonight.

you should try losing trading partners to inactivity when you're on Brown...

Silence is awesome. Best of luck! o/ Silence

Awesome gains Polar, STA. The NSO is only .63 away from the add line, so I'm excited to see 3 Frostbite alliances in the race once again. o/ Frostbite

Alright well I'm just going to make it brief, since I've basically repeated myself a bunch. PMJohns: Yup, I agree Famzy: Yup, and I never said it was completely due to war. Only that war losses and random leavings encourage more leavings and discourage recruitment. Direct and Indirect war losses. YingYangMafia: Key words of my argument: right now and currently; Of course NPO has suffered more than RoK, but not in the past 2 weeks. Additionally, I think for RoK's recovery, the most frightening statistic is net member drop. That'll make recovery a little bit more difficult.

[OOC]Eh, the main difference is that the Germans in NAfrica would eventually be defeated and that was inevitable (and they were in 1943). The Germans in Southeast Africa never did surrender until the German Empire itself surrendered, they outlasted the 'war'. With the NPO and Karma, the NPO still has the option of a perma-FAN or a perma Guerilla war, even if they prefer a more traditional surrender. In any event, analogies may backfire if people disagree with what you're making analogous, and I'm not sure arguing about which German African front of a different world war was more like the present situation does us much good.[/OOC] I never said that they aren't taking war damages. 100k NS in 2 weeks, as well as a good deal of members. However, they actually gained in NS and score in the last 3 days.

Okay, let's first off start out by saying that i'm NOT with the NPO. I'm in a very different alliance who actually briefly fought on the side of Karma. Big Difference. To anyone who takes a little bit closer look, it's irrefutable that RoK has taken heavy military losses as a result of NPO's committment to them. Not really total, at least 70 of your top nations are spared from little to any possibility of involvement militarily. This is because of reality, not necessity. NPO's upper tier in PM, both bankers and warriors, risk heavy tolls if they were to leave. There is no doubt, however, to say that RoK is taking the most damage right now given NPO's committment. [not my nations] Yes, and that's just a reality. NPO's larger nations before the war who have nukes, higher tech, wonders, etc. are demolishing your middle core (10-20k NS, and lower too), as I said, only 8 currently in that range not in PM, in an alliance of ~350. [not my guys] Yeah and that merely sets the battlefield, some of these guys also Nuke and use CMs too, which often leads to higher damage. That's merely a tactic used by NPO. the point at all was not how many NPO had, regardless of if they were in PM or not. So you combine your PM and WM nations in the 10-20k NS range, and that's 12. That's still a stark drop from what you had 3 weeks ago, and yes, even RoK members who were originally higher up were dragged down there as well. I'm merely saying that you took a beating, and over this period, it has likely been more than NPO. Well, I was more commenting on the nature of CNers to be more likely to leave if things are going badly in the alliance, just like CNers are more likely to join more successful alliances. Those members probably did play a good part in the war, but it was obvious that you were losing NS, score and members from the war in addition to losing some to random alliance formations. Thus they jumped ship in search of something better. Honestly, how can you account for the net 100 members (150-200 lost, if you include the ones you also recruited during this period) who left? Did they all form micro alliances? Not exactly, the Southeast africa example, the German guerilla forces could have tied down and outlasted the British force there for additional years (these forces were the last WW1 German forces to surrender). NPO, if anything, is in a stronger position than either of these two examples, as they have "turtled" themselves in, perhaps like a barricade? What i'm arguing is that a good portion of RoK's losses are war related, directly (military, as evidenced by NPO's success in the lower-mid ranks), or indirectly (members jumping off an alliance that has lost a tremendous amount in the war period). The microalliance formations are a large reason for the overall numbers and the indirect member loss too.

Very well said and well put. This is very close to my view of this situation. In my opinion, the actual numbers are pretty fair for Echelon and the NPO, but the pre-conditions for NPO and the Tech floor of 1000, that is simply pathetic in my opinion. As if Echelon, or any alliance who stayed in the war for any good amount of time, hasn't taken a significant amount of damage - and you completely handicap their ability to recover by de-teching all of their higher nations? Wasn't Karma supposed to be about changing the tyranny and harsh rules and terms of the NPO-led Hegemony? All I've seen here, is the harshest terms accepted in CN. It's to cripple these alliances and prevent them from really being able to function as a normal alliance. I'm glad that Grub spoke out in this manner. I know that you are not the only one or alliance leader who feels the same way. o/ Grub o/ Polaris o/ Frostbite!

[OOC] I don't think either example is very good since neither really reflects the current situation. NPO has nearly bottomed out in terms of war losses, and even though they are the "defeated" party, right now they have been inflicting pretty heavy war losses against RoK (and other alliances too like VE and FOK, but RoK is the main one). Perhaps a better example would be Southeast Africa during WW1, where despite much fewer numbers and the loss of true ability to actually govern the colony, the Germans were able to inflict massive damage on the British through guerrilla warfare.[/OOC] NPO and RoK alike have had members that have left for war-related reasons. Since RoK isn't at total war like NPO is, then yes, there is the possibility of more nations leaving to form their own alliance or to another alliance for whatever reason. But you also have to realize that 75% of RoK is in war range mode (<20k). Why is it that there are only 8 non-PM RoK nations between the NS of 10k and 20k? A month ago, that number would have been more around 40 to 60. It's really simply hard to dispute that this war hasn't had a tough toll on RoK. Additionally, its a pretty common phenomena among people to join things that are on the ascension while bailing on groups that aren't. Look at GGA, for the most part, and they aren't even in war anymore. I'd say RoK's lost 600k in the last 2 weeks are a combination of all three things, and unfortunately all three things contribute to the 3rd point (i.e. a self-fulfilling prophecy). So yes, right now, at this moment, NPO is succeeding in ruining RoK. They're not winning the war, but it's a stark improvement from before, and they're currently making its enemies suffer more than they are themselves.

that's a blatant misrepresentation at its worst. All I said was the past 2 weeks NPO has inflicted more damage to RoK than vice versa, whether militarily or politically (making people leave, etc.). I would hope someone with a little bit of common sense would be able to see it, especially if directed to the actual evidence. Do you fail to grasp the point, or do you ignore it purposefully? (Or do I already know the answer here...)

Really? I encourage you to take a look at the ranks of nations between 20k NS and 10k NS. It's a little disingenuous to suggest that NPO military hasn't had an effect on the lower tier nations. Again, take a look at the ranks. Now, you could argue that unrelated leavings have a bigger effect (and they definitely contributed), but that's also somewhat of an issue in NPO too. Fact of the matter is, RoK has lost more than 600k NS in the last two weeks, while NPO has only last 100k NS. So on this front, at this moment, I would say that NPO is 'winning', even if they aren't on the winning side.

Well, I would argue that the war, and the decision of NPO to target RoK, has made it much easier for the net 100+ people who have left RoK since the war's beginning. Nobody really likes being an alliance that's declining, so it may be a self-fulling prophecy. I sense there are some legitimate war losses, some unavoidable member losses, but then also people who are leaving since they dislike being in decline.