KainIIIC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V95eGgZbrU like that?

"legitimacy", as important as it is, is completely subjective and within the eye of the beholder. This experiment did show a few things: That social mores and norms change within time and are completely artificial, and that an action like this would elicit a response akin to "it's wrong because it's wrong! (mmkay)"

It's fair to mention that most of the fighting seems to be occuring with NPO launching against RoK, with Sparta, FOK and VE doing most of the attacking on NPO. For the last 2 weeks, it's clear that the NPO is winning against RoK, at least in terms of NS. Doing much more damage, that is.

I love how the recent part of this thread is almost completely unrelated to either the NSO or GPA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-AfOhyn_S4 Great to see this resolved like this, and a good compromise. o/ NSO

I see great strength in you. The Force is powerful with BTA.

pardon me for suggesting this, but perhaps TDO's loss was from alliance poaching?

Francoism has nothing to do with a pretty common philosophical concept and debate, as it goes beyond the NPO. Although Morals and Ethics are usually bound at a base level by human rationality, and thus most people generally agree in certain morals (not killing for example) and ethics. But even then, we have differences in morals (pro-life vs. pro-choice) and ethics (unfair business practices or completely fair?), that can stretch far or even further if we go back throughout history. Thus, I would be inclined to disbelieve that a serial killer acted ethically, but given that morals and ethics can be construed with twisted logic (like flying planes into buildings), it is perfectly conceivable to believe that a person (such as that serial killer himself) would think such an action is more "ethical".

*sigh* I'm sure others will understand what you have not.

Call it re-adjustment pains. Given our rapid growth and development in such a short period of time, it would be foolish to believe that we could retain each and every member. I, for one, did not forsee European nationalism to be a cause for loss of ~150k NS. Both morals and ethics are highly subjective. What you perceive as unethical is often perceived by others as perfectly fine and ethical. We did not deem these threats and sable rattling to be serious.

:: I don't think you really got it at all. First, think about who you're dealing with in an IC forum. Secondly, KinKiac said that Poaching is disrespectful. Link it back to my original post. It's not hard.

Nah, this action had no bearing or beginning with any of our allies. We Sith have more important things to care about than who you respect. In what world are solicitations illegal or war starters? When a Political or Religious organization asks you for their vote or to join their organization or church? Why would this be any different? These are all individuals, afterall. They can think for themselves. Lulz at 2 points. First, who actually believes that Ivan rules the world? Seriously, that would require some kind of grand CN conspiracy to really believe that. Secondly, ego issues? You mean every other leader or major player on CN?

We are the Sith. We do not hide our passion or true feelings.

Yes. Absolutely. This is something that was accepted in the past in CN, accepted in different games and formats; bar the Hyper-sovereignty platform embraced by NPO, and the Hegemony's promotion of refusal to tolerate recruitment, and using anything as a justification for war, they promoted this "No Poaching" meme. Under more normal circumstances, I think that "poaching members" is perfectly okay. It even can become a competition among rival alliances, against eachother or groups of eachother, to see who can morally "win over" more members. It would just become another fair-play aspect of the game. And if the alliance being recruited really has a problem with it, they would actually respond to it with teeth, either with reparations, real policy or political leadership change (resignations?), or actual war. I see no problem with selective, targeted recruitment efforts. However, that said, I don't believe in Spam. Recruitment letters should only be done once and on a relatively infrequent basis.

I have just today received a message from a prestigious Communist alliance. Unfortunately, it would only take me an official adoption of Sileathonomics by the Alliance for me to accept this invitation. Otherwise, who wouldn't love and be lured by such a convincing recruitment message?

Peace is a Lie. Are these nations truly neutral? Probably didn't get to them. WTF seems pretty cool, and they probably would have had the balls to attack us back or ask for something substantive.

yes, that's what I meant when saying that the circumstances and grounds under what you're operating in is significantly different. People will naturally react different given the consequences for their actions. In real life, going to war may mean your death. In this it means losing some pixels.

Well I think that the complete history of CN has shown that at one period it was once acceptable to recruit from other alliances, but became shunned once the NPO-led hegemony set the norms for international standards. What are now the international standards once NPO is no longer the hegemony, or are they the same? And I completely disagree with the notion that the real world has no parallels to Cyber nations; its participants are both human, and thus any action will be the result of human logic and actions. The main difference is, in my opinion, is that the grounds under which you are participating is different (Cybernations pixels versus the world and society), as well as a different set of history to shape the kind of actions that we now practice.

I believe that there were a few ZIs for people who did, but never an official CB. NPO's doctrine is all about "sovereignty", and any argument in favor of recruiting as a CB would almost solely be based on those grounds. I have a real-world scenario. Would it be wrong for South Koreans to ask North Koreans citizens that they have an invitation to their country? What if the US invited people from Canada to live here and become citizens? Should Canada or North Korea attack other countries who intend to recruit their citizens to emigrate to their countries?

Really? All I've seen is some posts by members of MHA and Gramlins that they disagree with this move and have said that there could potentially a be a war via Aqua. I haven't really heard anything saying that their internal official position is leaning towards a war in this circumstance.

Sure, that was the policy of the NPO for the last 2 years that they were the global Hegemony, and I find it encouraging for NPO's cause that you are supporting a very important component to NPO's foreign policy. The fact of the matter is that these conventions are completely arbitrary and invisible. France invaded Mexico because Mexico had an outstanding debt. Having a few PMs lobbed over to another alliance is only a CB if the alliance decides that it is. No more, no less. There is nothing really inherently wrong with sending recruitment letters to members of other AAs, but you've decided that for some reason to consider it wrong. That's all there is to it.

what constitutes aggression and what constitutes defense? Chances are, if TDO were to attack NSO, NSO's defense treaties would be activated, not the aggression ones. There is nowhere in the TDO constitution that says recruiting messages are an act of war, and it would be laughable to suggest such a thing.

I have just today received a message from a prestigious Communist alliance. Unfortunately, it would only take me an official adoption of Sileathonomics by the Alliance for me to accept this invitation. Otherwise, who wouldn't love and be lured by such a convincing recruitment message?

So essentially, the jist of the argument that I see coming from some of the people is: (replace the word 'drugs' with 'poach') http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-AfOhyn_S4 I also find it funny how this concept of poaching = evil was created by the NPO-led Hegemony, and now upheld by some of the same people with the same fake outrage who not only supported the NPO while they enacted this policy, but then completely ignored NPO's fake outrage CB to attack OV for spying. Peace is a lie. Only the strong shall survive.

I think we have all learned a lot from this encounter. Especially for me, as I've just learned an alliance called Green Old Party exists.