KinKiac

Me too. The first thing I thought when finishing reading the OP was "thats it?". Its Saint Bernards, not great bernards. There is such a thing as a Great Dane, but Im pretty sure there is no such thing as a great bernard. I cant believe no one picked up on that, lol. lol. You just dont get it do you? I like the way you place NSO at the top of your little list there when they arent even Karma, and they have nations arguing both sides of this. They are showing a more neutral stance as an alliance then any other alliance in here I think. I think the terms are very relevant to the topic. Ive noticed that the amount of reparations have yet to be contested here, nor have they been posted. I assume that if they were actually as harsh as they are being made out to be they would have been by now considering what a horrible failure this thread has been in getting people to feel any sympathy for Echelon. The only part I see contested is the fact that Echelons larger nations would have to pay the reps. I do not see the problem in this. Also, if the remaining combatants agree with your stance, are aware of the terms you refused and why, and remain "united" in their fight against GOD and others, then why does the mass message matter at all. I believe I saw you post somewhere that that is the real reason for this post. To decry the malicious mass message sent out by GOD. If the message doesnt do anything to hurt you at all, then why post the thread? Demanding that gov and larger nations pay reps is in no way similar to demanding that the gov step down and other nations not be allowed to be in Gov. Thats called meddling in internal affairs, which is quite different. Also, I dont believe that other thread was a huge PR fail for STA so again it is not similar in any way. If the reparations were not "fair and reasonable" then why not post the rep amounts to help your cause? The only thing I see you calling unreasonable is that your larger nations that are in peace mode have to pay, and that aspect of the terms is not unreasonable by any means. Would you please stop posting. No one here listens to what you have to say except those that are already on your side. Your extreme bias is too well known for your word to have any effect on peoples opinions here. Funny, I see only a very few echelon members in here posting thier support. Considering one of the first posts was from a member saying he did support it seems to be nothing more than them trying to support this claim, which may not be true, especially considering how angry they are getting over the mass message. I think that is the point. Dismantling the alliances "military" capabilities after a large scale war is to be expected isnt it? Also, I dont think it has anything to do with if Echelon will pose a threat to "Karma" necessarily, but to any alliance at least for a while. If Echelon does not plan on going to war again for a while then why complain about having your military weakened? Unless of course you plan on trying to exact revenge at the "soonest" possible opportunity.

whoops, my bad, i didnt realize i hadnt done that. lol.

When I try to declare on a person who I previously had a war with, it gives me the red error page saying I am already at war with this person. I have not been at war with this person for about 3 days or so.

It would only be war profiteering if the said alliance was bandwagoning and taking reps. It is not profiteering to take back what you lost due being forced to defend your allies against unjust actions. In a perfect world, the defending alliances and/or nations, should all get some of what they lost back. Especially since many of the MADP's out there have clauses that state that an attack on one IS an attack on the other. Technically the NPO(and others) attacked more than just OV. The NPO and those defending them should have known this. I was, but it is possible I misunderstood what I was reading at the time, so Ill give you that one, and apologize for taking a comment out of context. It really wasnt necessary for me to comment on anyway.

Not all of what I cited happened in previous wars. One of the things I cited was what about all the alliances and nations that have halved their NS or at least significantly droped in NS because they were forced to defend their allies form NPO's baseless aggression against OV. I wasnt responding to just that remark, but the whole convo you were having at the time, I just didnt quote the rest of it.

lol, yeah and their top what 50 or 60 largest nations are part of that 260. What about those who have been attacked in the past? What about those who have been held under NPO's boot heel? What about those that have lost half of their strength, pop, infra and tech defending their allies against NPO's baseless aggression? Why do only those "directly" attacked by NPO deserve reps? What about all the other destruction caused to alliances and nations as a result of NPO's actions? For some reason they dont matter? No not at all. If the alliances fighting the NPO front were to give NPO peace, along with terms that are next to impossible for them to keep, then re declared on them when said terms were inevitably broken, and continued to attack them for 2 freaking years. Then, and only then, would Karma be as bad as NPO. And, even then that does not take into account all the other alliances that NPO has destroyed. What is it that you dont get about that. Some people seem to continually underestimate the extent of the crimes that the NPO are accused of. If that is the case, and Karma were to use that same philosophy, we would be giving ALL the nations defending NPO the exact same harsh terms, as those treaty partners were "condoning" the acts of the NPO. Do you see where this argument falls apart? HINT: We are talking about NPO in this thread No, no it doesnt. Again you are so wrong. Let me spell it out for you. There is absolutely nothing that has been done by the alliances fighting on the karma side of this war, in this war, that is anywhere near the things that NPO has done to many others in the past. Has NPO ever given white peace to an alliance who fought out of treaty obligations? No. Has any hegemony alliance been given terms that included more tech payments then their entire alliance has? No. Have any of the terms handed out by karma alliances been so harsh that they would almost inevitably lead to re-declaring? No. Has any other alliance in the history of CN, besides NPO, fought another alliance into the ground for over 2 years? No. Until karma does ALL of these things, you can not accurately say they are as bad as the people they fight, you're only kidding yourself. So please, stop with the silly "you are as bad as them" arguments, they only hold water for those who are uninformed.

Funny, thats what Chron did to my first post.

You know what, after reading the other thread that this all started in, Im starting to question things a little more. I really just dont know anymore. Either way I think this looks bad on all parties involved. Wow, what a cluster!@#$, lol. Id like to apologize to Moo and Mhawk in my quick judgement, although I hadnt really made up my mind, I was leaning in one direction. While some of the things I said still stand, more specifically being that both Moo and Ironchef both had reasons to be the ones lying, I really dont think any of us can say for sure unless one of them comes out and says it. I guess in the end it is going to come down to who people trust more. (OOC - Isnt this much more fun then the "no XXX member above such and such a rank is allowed to post" BS that we have seen in the past?/OOC)

Umm...ok? That is more of an opinion dont you think? Also, why? That's it though. GGA re-entering the war would have no impact on TPF or NPO IMO. It just prolongs GGA's curbstomp. How does that prolong TPF's war? If GGA has already been beaten, they are not helping either side, and are rather insignificant in the big picture. When people are ready to give NPO terms it is going to matter not if GGA is still fighting. I really dont see how either of these posts invalidates the logic in my original post. I may be wrong, I am not claiming not not be missing some info that would change my opinion, but just that neither of these posts provides that. If the NPO supports the newest coup(that of SWR and KFH) then they do have reason to mess with and discredit shaneprice, ironchef, deceptor and anyone else who is supporting them. What I see is not any benefit in this war, but rather the possible war that is coming after this. One in which NPO and TPF are going to be looking to exact revenge. Having loyal GGA members under the control of friendly gov members seems in their best interests. Or..... Im just talking out my @$%, dont really know whats going on and should just stop posting now, lol. I just tend to question the motives of someone who comes out and immediately does a multi post log dump in the OP. It just seems like a lot of effort to prove the reasons behind mhawk's decisions, when in the past, no log dumps were necessary and the people who did log dump were called out for it. Why not just say GGA got couped, yet again, thats it, we're done.

Why would it be un likely that 2 close allies would lie together? Im not calling into question either mhawk or moo's integrity, just the plausibility of them conspiring together. Why would that be unlikely? lol, so Im not the only one who saw that. Looked like someone was taking things way too seriously. [ While I do agree that looking at the motivations of each party are a better way of looking at things then obsessing over timestamps, I do disagree with the assumption that these are the only possible motivations. These are the ones that are easily seen, but who says there isnt some other reason for moo to want mess with GGA? Maybe the fact that he doesnt trust the new Gov (shaneprice/deceptor) and really doesnt care if they are thrown to the dogs. If they go back to war, and get destroyed or end up disbanding, then that is one less alliance NPO has to worry about turning on them. Also it might make some members who were supporting shaneprice/deceptor gov, to rethink their position and who they support giving more power to KFH and SWR (and more members)in their new GGA. Shaneprice had previously displayed a dislike for NPO and a willingness to cut ties with NPO. I personally think NPO has a very strong interest in keeping GGA as an ally, but only if their Gov is friendly. They can not be sure what Deceptor and Shaneprice might do, them 2 making up the majority in the trium. All this is really just grabbing at straws but I just wanted to illustrate, for those accepting of the quoted motivations that GGA had more motivation to lie, that these are not necessarily the true motivations of each party involved and NPO might very well have more to gain in lying then GGA. Either way I love the drama around here.

whoops, my bad, lol. nvm. I guess I need to rethink few things. Thanks for correcting me, and sorry to any TFO members for the confusion, I mean no ill will towards you guys as I barely know who you are and due to my ignorance was speaking out of line.

Sad to see you guys go, but at the same time, its nice to see you've accomplished what you set out to do. Im sure we'll all continue to hear from all of you in one way or another, since many of you are quite vocal at times, lol. @Doitzel - What are your plans after the disbandment? Do you have any alliances in mind that you might like to join, or are you just kinda going to wing it for a while? Just curious.

No, but unfortunately they got hit by an alliance (TFO) that is made up of former leaders of MCXA, one of NPO's core allies. To my understanding they may actually be more responsible for the past transgressions of MCXA then the current MCXA gov, and it therefore doesnt surprise me that they would ask for terms many consider too harsh for an alliance like TSI. As for the terms given to MCXA, I think they were very reasonable considering the damage they took during the war. If it wasnt for that then, yeah Id say they got off easy, but so far I think that there isnt an alliance yet to take as much damage as MCXA did.

lol, I love this post. You basically admit to lying. Good one.

I agree. Both sides may be guilty of painting skewed pictures of the other, however there is definitely some sins to atone for by some of the major players, some of which may get off with being on the winning side this time, however I do not believe that will last. Eventually karma comes back to bite everyone in the butt

Wow. You've pretty much answered your own question in reverse with that post. Replace Hegemony with Karma and there you go, you have an answer that would, for the most part, suffice save for a few minor details. The only thing wrong would be that someone on the Karma side, I think, created both the names, Karma and Hegemony as part of the political buzz that got people motivated. I am in Nueva Vida, and although I do not consider myself part of Karma, I do not speak for my alliance. It is possible that my alliances official position is that we are part of Karma, but I personally disagree. My alliance did not enter this war as Karma, we entered this war as AZTEC and honored a direct treaty with VE. The reason I disagree is that some people fighting on the Hegemony side of the war are now using Karma as a blanket label for all the alliances on the side of Karma, thus associating all the alliances with perceived wrongs of single alliances fighting on this side. That is not fair, to any of the alliances in this conflict. For example, many were disappointed with the terms handed to TSI from IS and TSO. I personally, and Im sure my leaders, did not agree with those terms in that war. But in the surrender thread I saw people, yourself included if Im not mistaken, trying to use the terms, which were handed out by TSO and IS, as being indicative of the nature of all the alliances fighting on the Karma side as a whole, and associating the actions of 2 alliances fighting on the Karma side with that of the whole group. This is not true and not fair to those fighting in this war. That would be like the Karma side saying that all the alliances fighting on the Hegemony side are guilty of the crimes of the NPO, and handing out the same harsh terms to all. Again, this is not true, and each alliance fighting on the Hegemony side, when being given surrender terms, should be taken individually and not punished for the crimes of the people they fight with. Unless of course, they are in fact guilty of either those same crimes, or being enablers of such crimes(eg MCXA and IRON). Although I believe as far as the terms go, MCXA got off easy. And, yes I know, most of the MCXA gov who would be responsible for much of which MCXA is guilty of are now in TSO, which is why I do not believe the actions taken by such alliances should be used to paint a picture of all the alliances fighting on the Karma side. But hey thats just my opinion. Edited for content.

Thank you, thank you, thank you... for changing your avatar... again, lol. Excuse me? They are part of AZTEC, you mess with them you mess with all of us. I think we just proved by taking out MCXA "together" that we (AZTEC) are a force to be reckoned with. They were with us from the very beginning.

Hey Crohl, why are you in peace mode? I thought you planned on keeping this up for a while? Why did you peace out when your first round of wars was up?

Welcome back MB!

What is that supposed to mean? Are you threatening us? we took a major hit in the last war, were preemptively attacked before we even joined the war, then were forced to pay reps to several alliances. I dont speak for my alliance, but IMO, it doesnt matter if those alliances were not MCXA. MCXA has handed out far worse terms than this so stop crying over spilt milk. I can see by that last statement why you were on peoples ZI lists. Luckily for you most have stopped that kind of thing. Calling a fairly respected member of this community a "joke" is asking for trouble. You are the same person that in another thread said that MK was going to be the next Overlords of CN right? I lol'd. ummm.... those that left to become Karma POW's are now under those terms anyway, and are subject to those terms until stated otherwise. Personally I would assume that anyone surrendering under the Karma POW AA is probably going to be under that AA until the end of this war, not just when their former alliances get peace. Or, if you are the NPO and crave war! I lol'd. Are you getting paid for this?

oh come on. Are you really serious you had no idea. Anyone who was reading OWF could see the tensions building for the last 3 months or more. War was inevitable.

No, independant as in Im not their viceroy, they werent forced to disband, and they get to keep all of their gov.

Oh god Doitzel, did you have to change your avatar. I much prefer looking at the other one, and considering I like your posts I have to see it a lot. lol

Well, to be fair, we did knock them out of sanction.