KinKiac

Its a matter of respect. Doesnt matter if it was the alliances own good, or if it didnt harm them or if it promotes better alliances or any BS like that. Poaching from another alliance is like slapping them in the face. It shows a total disrespect for that alliance. Poking fun or not, it shows a total disrespect. Doesnt matter if it is "weeding out non-neutrals". Respect goes a long way in this world and in others and showing a total disrespect for another alliance that has done nothing to your own says a lot about your character.

Something else id like to say is that everyone who says either step up or be neutral about it, dont really know what neutral means. TDO cant be neutral in something they are already involved in. You can only have a neutral stance in a situation you are removed from in some way. One where you have to either pick a side, or not pick any. Since this involved TDO directly, they are already on a side.

Before getting too into reading this 54 pages of this thread Id just like to say that if I was in charge of an alliance and NSO or whoever did this to my alliance, Id declare first and ask questions later. People would be more likely to give an apology if they had already been declared on in game. If this was just a joke on the part of NSO they might not be laughing any more if they had been declared on by all involved immediately after sending the messages.

lol, "no U", lol Yes, by saying I fail to believe they wont etc etc, is the same thing as saying I believe they will etc etc. And, yes, saying you dont believe them is the exact same thing as saying they are lying. Saying everything I said in reverse with sarcasm (while adding a few words into my mouth I might add) is the same as simply saying "no I didnt". It doesnt make you look cool, it doesnt prove your point, and then you top it off with an ad hominem attack. My whole point is that what you are doing in your posts is trying to push your opinion that the new CN, after the Karma war was supposed to put a stop to such things as EZI and PZI, is the exact same as it was before. You use this post as an example to prove your point however, UINE is not representative of all of PB. Not even close. Its posts like this that set me off. You make huge assumptions as to the nature of UINE leadership, based on personal opinions that have no facts to back them up. You admitted yourself that up until 3 days ago you had no idea who they were and in three days you assume to know enough about them to say that they will do their best to extract vengeance through re-rolls and all they want is blood etc etc. Telling them that chasing someone after re-roll is unacceptable is one thing but saying all they want is blood and vengeance is making quite the leap, and I dont think it is deserved.

Im not assuming anything. Id like to quote your previous response to answer that. I believe that was an attack on UINE, not the idea of EZI/PZI. Also what you call not being "niave" enough, I call being prejudice as you have no valid reason not to believe that this is only going to last for one single ZI.

If the bolded part was all you were and are saying then I wouldnt have had a problem. Its the fact that you are using what is so far an isolated incident to push your own opinions that bothers me. What also bothers me is when you say that you are not naive enough to think they wont hunt her down. What in all of UINE's history is it that leads you to believe that they are going to hunt her down across re-rolls regardless of what she does? As far as I can see that belief is based off your personal, broad and generalized view of what all alliances on PB would do in the same situation. That is called prejudice.

This doesnt "prove" anything. Only time will tell if this was or was not a bad choice of words/actions on the part of UINE. You are sitting here passing judgment on a developing alliance and using their actions to push your own personal opinions of the direction PB is going. What is being asked for in the OP does not necessarily amount to E/PZI. When someone pointed that out to you, you simply responded with well I dont believe that BS. You are passing judgment and saying that the OP is basically lying and is using questionable language to try and sneak in a PZI/EZI sentence, without actually having any reason to not believe what he says. You are saying the OP is cleverly worded BS. You do not know that for sure. By saying that, you are accusing them of lying. How is that not trashing their reputation? You say you are calling them out, well, Im calling you out for spinning things to push your own personal opinion, and possibly hurting an alliance's reputation to do so.

No Not really, Im pretty sure that PZI and EZI were permanent. They didnt end after one ZI. Why are you spinning this? What do you have against UINE? Im not saying I condone their actions with regards to possible P/EZI but you seem to be passing judgment on them without waiting to see what happens. Its as if you you have seen them do this in the past and know what to expect from them. Id say a single ZI, one time then its over is not really unacceptable, IF that is what happens. Again, you seem to be assuming the worst, why? You may not be naive enough to believe what they say but you do seem to be prejudice enough to assume the worst. Again Id like to point out that you are passing judgment without actually waiting to see what happens and without any previous information to lead you to believe that this is the road that this alliance is taking. Then, you go so far as to assume this is going to be the stance of any of the major alliances in this game. UINE is a relatively small alliance and by no means is any representation of the majority of PB. Your seem to be just pushing propaganda and your own views of the Karma war. This has nothing to do with the Karma war and is in no way a representation of the way PB is going to work once the Karma war is over. Please stop, it is not necessary and is just trashing UINE's reputation before they actually do anything that you are accusing them of. Prejudice does not look good on anyone.

Good luck Guys!

Just in case anyone missed it, I do not speak for my alliance. I am not Gov, I never have been, nor am I planning on such in the future. I speak for myself and only myself. Ummm, regarding the bolded part, I think you did. Actually, I think thats what you've been arguing all along. Some examples maybe: Maybe my reading comprehension is a little off, but reading those 2 posts, you seem to be saying that if NPO didnt start the war by "kicking it off" by attacking OV, that Karma forces would have attacked eventually and as you put it "Curbstomp NPO and any siding with them". You cant respond to someone else and think that other wont call you on it. What I have been arguing with you about is why NPO would have attacked OV, knowing that they would lose(according to intel from TPF) when they could have sat back and waited for what you guys are saying was inevitable, which is Karma forces DOW'ing NPO, with a CB based off the same justification as the harsh terms being offered at this point. Now, in this past post you try to say that it wouldnt have worked out so well for Karma if they had attacked NPO? Then in the same post you contradict yourself saying that if NPO hadnt started the war with OV(or any other war for that matter) that Karma would have had enough support that just about any CB would have sufficed, and Karma would have attacked NPO, and therefore NPO(and TPF since you guys share intel and Im assuming work together on these things) decided to kick it off themselves by declaring during negotiations, not posting a DOW until after the fact, and pretty much alienating any fence sitters that might have helped them out if it wasnt for said actions. MHA would have likely supported NPO, even as it turned out they defended their allies but stated they "did not" support Karma. As has been stated by others Citadel would have sat this one out. Im sure there are others too. And, if you guys waited a while longer maybe MCXA would have had a chance to save up a warchest and helped out a lot more than they did. Seems like you guys just used them as meatshields, and I feel sorry for them in that respect and only hope they can see this themselves. You guys keep saying how great your analysts were at predicting things, but if you are serious that TPF and NPO thought they would somehow be avoiding a bigger loss than if they waited for what you say was inevitable, then your analysts really dropped the ball then didnt they. They may have been good at predicting how things would work out under static conditions but they really arent that good when thrown a few variables are they? A war may have been coming but it could have been much less painful for NPO and much more so for Karma. I know Im dragging this on and on but I just fail to believe that this is the best military strategy that you and NPO could muster. Why cant you guys just admit you made a mistake in deciding to attack OV. (Im saying "you guys" assuming that TPF and NPO were working together on this)

I was just using the word that started this whole argument if you go back through the posts I see no logic in your justification for NPO attacking OV when/IF they knew they would most likely lose "at that time". It also would show a total disrespect for NPO's allies, although that seems to be expected from them. More specifically I am talking about MCXA. They were so ill prepared they barely gave AZTEC a fight. They got destroyed and fast. So, what your saying is NPO thought they could control the situation by sending in an ill prepared MCXA to the slaughter? Hows does that work. Also I am naive enough to think that jumping any nation without valid CB would have been bad PR. There are many that could have side with NPO in that scenario and kicking it off yourself was just dumb IMO if you thought you would lose. Also to address your last point, I dont think you really comprehend what I was saying. For one, I wasnt talking about RL. I was talking about PB. Here on PB, wars are won by nations fighting yes but who joins who and who ultimately wins is game of politics and is just as much, if not more so, a war of words as it is a war of game mechanics and sheer numbers. The numbers come through words. NPO didnt lose the numbers game as far as sheer strength and size are concerned. They lost the war of words which led to the actual in game war. If you can not see the very major part that words and propaganda play in wars around here then it is you my friend who is naive.

Umm, we're talking about nations that still have 1bill or more in warchests. Even if they were ZI'd, 5000 infra from 0 costs $155,485,960.57. If those guys have less than that left after 14 days of war then as someone else has stated they are the worst banks ever. LMAO. You obviously dont read do you? Ill quote myself in a previous post in this thread, which was copy and pasted form the post made by Moo himself when he made the terms public, for which I provided a link as well, and bolded the relevant parts to make it easier for you.

Why start a war, gain bad PR and play into Karma's game? Why not wait, build yourself up, warn your allies, like MCXA who had NO idea the war was coming and so didnt prepare, and do your best not to give Karma a reason to jump on you? Prove them wrong? Take more steps to show the community that you were willing to change(Im referring to NPO BTW) and maybe just maybe some of those fence sitters would have fell on your side. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to start a war when chances are you will lose. Politics is what wins wars around here not numbers. If NPO didnt give Karma the war they were looking for(assuming that is what happened) then Karma could not attack NPO without looking just as bad themselves. All the good PR Karma had in order to get all those fence sitters to join in would have been lost in that scenario. Kicking off a war at a time when things looked bad for you is a huge mistake for any alliance. If you are going to start a war then you want to do it at an opportune time. As time goes by the whole situation changes. What exactly did your(and NPO's) amazing analysts think would happen if Karma kicked things off? I can almost guarantee that things would have gone much differently, and people should have been able to see that both before and after NPO decided to attack OV. Are you really saying that you guys thouhgt it would be best to just start the war you figured you'd lose rather than allowing Karma forces to start it and thus give yourselves some PR ammo? I really just dont buy that. EDIT: Also, what do you mean "along with everyone else." I saw NPO and TORN declare, thats it. The rest was in response. Your Emperor also lifted the radio silence for that thread and so knew it would not be just "one post". Also, if he knew that it would turn into the monstrosity that it did the original point still stands; Your Emperor created that monstrosity, and according to you "knew" that it would become such. Wait what? I really do not see any of your logic in that statement. Our side didnt throw the first punch therefore our side did not start the war, NPO did, and they definitely arent going to win as far as I can see, so they started a war they either knew they couldnt win or, like the original statement that I was arguing said, NPO started the war thinking they would win. To address your second point, are you trying to say that NPO didnt realize that SF would be involved? Or VE? Or that they didnt think NV would honor our treaty with VE when they sent MCXA after them? or that half of the cyberverse would disregard their treaties? Come on they are not that naive are they?

What trumps the point of view of many OWF posters is the fact that you are supporting NPO. Ok, so lets say that your alliance is not the same as before, that you have changed member base and leadership and lets forget about your past. The fact still remains that you are displaying this "honor" of yours by supporting an alliance which is know to stab people in the back. You are supporting the same alliance that your previous Gov did. So far, you are doing the same thing you guys did in the past. So, why is it that we should all hail you again? Keeping your word to an ally is one thing, and does show some honor in that respect. But you guys are going down for the wrong reasons. You guys are going down supporting the bully. Its like punching the cop who is arresting your buddy for breaking a beer bottle over someones head at a bar. The honor you show in keeping your word to support your pal pales when taken into the context of what and who you are supporting.

Dont even try to use the "no peace talks" line in your defense. That is YOUR choosing. And, BTW how does that show you have changed, policy wise? Tyga was right, TPF right now is using word to try and say they are an honorable alliance. Their actions "in this war" may show some honor, but they dont negate all previous actions. STA was honorable AND known by its allies to be honorable long before the last war and didnt need multiple threads to prove that to anyone. No, they are not. STA was defending an ally that was attacked. TPF is "supporting" an ally that started a war it couldnt finish. These are 2 totally different situations and while there may be some similarities, you can not use your actions in this war to try and say that TPF is just as honorable as STA. Not gonna happen.

What does this have to do with the original statement that started this argument, that NPO thought they would win when they attacked OV? If both TPF and NPO had numbers saying that if you guys started a war that you would probably lose, then why did they start it? They wouldnt have, that is the point. They thought they would win when they declared, it didnt take long for them to realize that mistake and from that point on it was clear you guys were gonna lose yeah, but not when NPO declared, at least not to them. Yes, I believe it was your Emperor that created that thread. The 200 pages was just a response. Wasnt the response you were looking for, but it was still a response to a thread that YOUR Emperor created. Why is it that NPO either didnt have or didnt listen to your intel? Did they really attack OV with the knowledge that they would most likely lose?

Maybe. But most of the "average Cn'ers" dont frequent OWF, or at least they dont post. Most of the regular posters here are vets and Gov. It is the opinion of Gov that will change others opinions of alliances such as NPO and TPF. I personally dont have anything against them, I do believe they have shown honor in this war, at least Mhawk anyway. I still think it will take some time even after this war is over for many to forget TPF's past and truly judge them based on their recent actions.

Touche, that may have been cause for a valid CB, but would it have been a valid to completely destroy an alliance for? The was one of the main points I was making, yes they may have had a CB to go to war but would it have been a valid CB to completely destroy an alliance. No, thats not what I meant. You are actually reversing the logic in my post. What I meant is that if the new Gov wanted to completely remove all the negative stigma of TPF's history, it would have been better to change the name "as well as the Gov". I didnt say they couldnt get past that negative stigma, just that it is always going to be there as long as they are TPF. When people see the name TPF, they think of all the things TPF as an alliance has done, not just what they have done under Mhawk. Mhawk may very well indeed be changing their direction along with the new Gov(however the fact that they still support NPO is at least in one way showing the same direction) but as long as they are still TPF they will have that history, people wont forget that and TPF(and thier allies for that matter) cant simply ignore their history. You cant expect people to just say "oh you changed gov, well now all is forgiven." It just doesnt work that way. When the number of honorable things TPF has done outnumbers the number of dishonorable things TPF has done, then maybe people will change their minds. You cant just change Gov and expect that all will be forgiven. If you are going to merge alliances and you disagree with the things that one of the 2 is known for and you want people to give you a clean slate it might be better to take on the name that doesnt have a bad history. Just sayin'. Thats not a silly way to look at things IMO.

If you care for some light reading you may look here - http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...imperial+decree The actual terms being discussed are as follows B1) The New Pacific Order shall move the bulk of its forces into warmode for 2 weeks prior to the end of combat. When 90% or more of all nations at or above 4,000 infrastructure and additionally 90% or more of the alliance is in warmode, a countdown clock shall begin, starting on the day immediately after the above conditions have been met. A state of open warfare shall exist between the signatories of this document for a period of exactly 14 days. After the period of 14 days has elapsed no further attacks are to occur, peace is to be offered in all quarters, and the period of protection specified in part C of this agreement will begin. B2) Reparations of up to 300,000 tech and $7,000,000,000 will be assessed upon the New Pacific Order. This shall be determined dependent on their ability to pay after the aforementioned period of war, in the judgment of the Karma signatories of this document. All reparations of technology must be paid by nations with greater than or equal to 1000.00 technology at the end of the above-mentioned 14 day period. However, if you were not aware of this info before, Im not sure if your opinion is what is asked for. I dont mean to be rude in any way but most of the people who read these forums already know what was offered, and had a hand in the 200+ page thread I linked to. I believe the op was looking for a general opinion of the community as a whole, but if you are/were unaware of the terms offered to NPO, then Im guessing that you also are unaware of what this war is about, and what the NPO is accused of doing in the past. Without such knowledge it is hard to judge if these terms are harsh or not, you kinda have to know the history behind everything. Without the proper context your opinion is moot. Again I mean no disrespect, but without knowledge of what terms NPO has offered to others they had defeated/curbstomped, then you do not have the proper context to judge the terms.

I think that the expectation for NPO to take nations out of peace mode was not harsh, if taken into the context of the fact that reps would be re-negotiated after the 14 days war period. Yes if NPO was totally obliterated and billion dollar warchests taken down to a hundred mill per person, then yeah having to pay out 7bill + tech would be harsh. I really dont think that was what Karma had in mind when writing those terms. I think they really want NPO's big nations, or what is left of them, to come out and fight. Reps amounts can be determined later. I dont think the term of having to bring nations out of peace mode is harsh at all and the strict demands on who is going to pay reps isnt either. Half of NPO is newbs now, why would anyone from Karma want to force a newb to pay reps? The principle behind having only nations above a certain size pay is to ensure that it is not the newbs who end up paying. Forcing the large nations out of peace mode is to ensure that those with 400, 500 and 1000 days seniority in the alliance actually have to fight. It is no different that saying, you all F'd up. Your punishment is single one time ZI, something I have seen absolutely no one speak out against. many alliances and many nations will ZI you if you cross them. Many nations have already been ZI'd in this war. NPO banks will not be ZI'd in 14 days. Karma did their best to write up terms that made sure that A - Large nations with high seniority(as in they were there for the crimes NPO is accused of) are the ones paying reps, B That all those same nations are made to pay and fight and lose infra along with the rest of the alliance, and C that the terms are not so light that NPO can rebuild in a few short months and begin waging war again. Is that really harsh?

Its not that other alliances wouldnt, it is that other alliances dont have allies that would sit back and ALLOW their friends to continue to get curbstomped for them. Also, someone else pointed out STA. You mean like the white peace given to many alliances in this war? Id say thats a BIG change. To answer these 2 posts, thoeretically without any actual knowledge of the situations ie) "why would an alliance not attack when the ones they want to attack are politically isolated?" That ones easy. PR. If you attack an alliance with the intent of simply destroying them, without a valid CB "for their destruction", which would take quite a bit I might add, you are going to look very very bad. You dont. You get it elsewhere. I havent seen many who claim TPF is dishonorable for keeping its word "this time", but rather many who claim they are dishonorable for previous actions, many of which seem to be while they were under the rule of Slayer. Even though Mhawk may be of a different nature then his predecessor, it still doesnt change the history he inherited by becoming the leader of TPF. It doesnt matter if he and other Gov are former Elysium, they chose to merge into TPF, keep the name TPF and therefore must deal with the fact that TPF are not known by many to be honorable. The name TPF and all it's baggage go hand in hand. If they truly wanted to distance themselves from the previous actions of TPF, they would have been better off changing the name, not just the people in charge. My personal opinion in this conflict is that Mhawk has shown himself at least to be doing the honorable thing. I will give him credit for that. Whether or not the rest of the alliance has that same honor, unfortunately is not able to be determined from my point of view, they may or may not have been shamed into fighting. Myself and many others may never know, as TPF would never admit it if they were shamed into fighting. Same goes for any of the other alliances that have been labeled the coalition of cowards. However, the ones who still stand to fight today could be reasonably assumed to have as much honor as their leader, since they have many chances to surrender individually to Karma, and now to simply leave for other endeavors with Mhawk's blessing. The fact that they choose to continue to fight says something. I will not go as far as to say that TPF is an honorable alliance, however I will say that they have shown honor in their actions during this war. lol, way to spin it. I havent heard anyone on these boards or elsewhere say to TPF "surrender or get huge reps that will destroy you". All that has been said is that if TPF continues with their fight, that the fight will destroy them. Whether or not continuing the battle will destroy them or not is a matter of opinion, and depends largely on TPF's resolve. No one is "interfering" in TPF's sovereignty. The bolded part of your post shows your opinion, which in my opinion is reading too deep into the words of nations fighting alongside Karma. The italicized part is spin.

Thats right and I can tell you that AZTEC is worth more than the paper its written on. Buddy doesnt know what he's talking about.

Congratulations guys! You'll be competing with NV in the rankings soon if you keep this up.

I know Im digging up an old post, but I must have missed this one before. So, what Letum has demonstrated here is that 20 nations could pay these reps in 33 months. That means 40 could do it in 17? 80 in 8.5? So, if the NPO is only getting 70% of 80 nations, assuming that only 80 would be able to pay(could be higher) then 8.5 months. Funny that is not the years people are saying it is and this is coming from one of your own members. With a bit of work you could do it in ...... wait for it.......lol....... 6 months. Isnt that what Karma has been saying all along. This does not equate to eternal reps and any eternal war will be NPO's own choosing. Just take the terms already and end this.

I thought that was the case. Otherwise his sig is quite confusing. This is awesome in a way. Looks like you are afraid of yourselves. See, using loopholes in terms to justify eternal war is something YOU guys would do. It is not something Karma intends to do, although I see why you are afraid, since Karma seems to be doing to you what you have done to others. Doesnt feel very good does it? Why dont you guys just TRY to pay the reps, after the period of war. If you can not pay, in good faith, and Karma declares on you again, you win the PR battle. This is not going to work out in your favor no matter how you look at it. Take the terms, then complain about them when and if you actually can not pay. Until you go to war, you dont know exactly how much you will lose, or how much Karma will take off the reps. And, until you try to pay the reps you can not say it will take years, as it doesnt seem that way to many of us. Just take the terms and give it a shot. Is that not better than continuing a losing war? What is it that you think you are going to achieve or gain in continuing this?