Shurukian

Happy Birthday TPF. Mogar beat me to it, TPF and friends really are a family, and I'm proud to be a part of it.

However, since they just gave them to you, you weren't able to drum up member support and activity to get them involved in the task. Not only would they become more knowledgeable with trial and error circumstances, but they would become more involved in the community. As you remember, I was a part of SPQR, and activity was always a huge problem. So I would argue that they weren't giving you exactly what you needed, they were simply giving you what you needed so you would sit nice and quiet. An alliance can always benefit from trying their own methods to see what works and what doesn't. Three things from this. First of all, if I had no clue how to lead an alliance, then I would never, ever be stupid enough to create one. When you create an alliance, you have a duty to your citizens to be able to lead them. If I didn't think I could do that, then I wouldn't hurt them in such a way. Second, as for what you've said about Sparta, I believe you've proved my last statement correct: Third, the best that should have been provided to you in the situation with the Socialistic Empire was a mediator. They should not have been there as the bigger kid on the playground that tells the smaller one to sit down and shut up. If you create the issue, you should clean it up. Once they dismiss and clean up one issue, more are always to come. While they might have had more participation in the way of a third party, they shouldn't have tried to fix it for you. I would horribly disagree with this. It is always known that you should never start an alliance without at least 8-10 people who are active and willing to help. If you have a leader that is not committed to succeeding and seeing his or her alliance grow, then the alliance might as well be dead on the spot. Again, a protectorate treaty does not make your protector 'Daddy'. Every alliance must have their own experiences and views. If you're always waiting around for your protector to tell you what to do next, or to get the next guide from them, then maybe you should ask how qualified you are to be leading an alliance. Having a constant guiding hand is never good, and the protectorate simply becomes a burden to the larger alliance. Most protectorates are signed for two reasons: You either see potential in the alliance, and want to foster a new ally, or you see a naive person wanting to do something they have no knowledge for, and a possible merger of a few new members might be in store when it fails. While some alliances may have pure intentions, and a willingness to help, most do not, and that's simply how it is. Coming from TGE, Isaac, you can surely see that's true. Yes, I believe it does boil down to a case by case basis. However, if you look at the protectorates that have been successful, contributing alliances, almost none of them were the kind of protectorate that was led by the hand, as you suggest a protector should do. They all had knowledgeable people with diverse experiences leading them to what they would become.

I would have to strongly disagree. As Janax said, protectorates should not be led by the hand of their protector. Alliances should want to grow themselves, and work to encourage stability and hard work within their own alliance. If you are constantly being led and helped in everything you do, then you will never be independent, and simply be a burden on those protecting you. As a protectorate of TPF right now, I can say that we've been fully protected, and they offer any help that we ask for. However, I would never be naive enough to expect them to do my job for me. It is my responsibility to make my alliance grow and float. Not theirs. After all, they do have TPF to lead. If I cannot lead my alliance without help, then why would I every expect to become a sovereign entity? And as an edit, TPF has given very much to us, in the ways of guidance, but mainly in friendship. I would argue that Protectors should be the main motivating force to make an alliance want to succeed independently, by their example and friendship, not by telling them what to do and when. If you've found no such thing in the past, maybe you're simply finding bad protectors.

A ninja shurukian? Oh mai, how terrible! I think you mean a ninja Shuriken.

Yes, I understand that alliances have been held responsible for their pasts. What I'm saying, is that I see no good reason why. All it does is hamper growth and change. An alliance should be judged by their current leadership, and I see nothing destructive and terrible that mhawk has done.

Okay, I'm not necessarily addressing just this post, but a few others that have been calling out TPF and OPP's past actions. First of all, when you look at TPF, they've seen an almost complete government switch to the former Elysium government. The same with the members in OPP. OPP currently consists of TSI, 64Digits, and possibly IRAN (I don't know what's up with that situation). In the last war, most of TSI government were at TGE. IRAN has obviously had a large government change, and 64Digits has all but ceased to exist on the political scene since HoT got wiped off the face of Bob. So for the past actions of OPP, I don't know what they are, and frankly, I don't care, because the past is the past. I refused to be defined by my treaties rather than who we are as an alliance. In the four wars that I've led alliances through, I've never asked for reparations, and unless someone does something horribly disrespectful, that trend will continue. I see no reason to get funds out of an alliance that you've beaten. I didn't join OPP because of the amazing history it had. I didn't know much about the history at all. TPF was an ally of TGE, and someone I naturally went to. However, anyone that knows me well can say I'm very much so a hippy, friendly, whatever, person. If TPF were continuing their past trend of actions, I wouldn't be in OPP today. However, I have faith in mhawk, and the reason I sand so staunchly behind TPF is because of how much I believe in his actions and ideals for TPF. If you'd like to call him the same as the past governments, I'd ask for examples. If the current TPF was out to hurt everything in sight, or the current OPP was, then I'm sure things would be a lot different. The idea of blaming an alliance for their past has always been an odd one to me. GOONS has reformed, but with new leadership. Should they be held to their past actions? As soon as mhawk does something to warrant the hate that TPF receives, I'll pack up my bags and find some new friends. But I don't see that happening any time soon. As for the peace mode issue, as in the OP, I think it's been fairly well explained that it's a tactic of war. Hell, I hit peace mode to get nukes and build up my warchest. It's amazing what five days in peace mode can do for you in a war. Especially if you're on the losing end. I think everyone's fought a nice fight here, and see no reason for half the trolling and fighting that's going on in this thread. But maybe that's just me. Fakeedit: Again Tyga, not specifically directed at you, yours was just the last post I read that mentioned the issues that were bugging me.

Thanks Stonewall!

It's been said from the beginning that Karma is simply a coalition of alliances together for this war. So for those saying that this will kill Karma in the future, there will be no Karma to kill. Karma will die as soon as this war is over. I also think it's safe to say, that the next war will probably be current Karma alliances vs. other Karma alliances. While treaties are dropping and the MDP web is breaking up on the Hegemony side, it hasn't yet happened to the Karma side. And that's what the next war will probably be. Similarly, it doesn't matter what terms you give them. Everything grows back. All you can do is hamper it, unless you plan to full destroy them, which would just be detrimental to Bob.

Excuse me, but I acknowledged no such thing. All I acknowledged was that TSI had put up a good fight and spent our resources. I also knew that TFO would be asking for nice reparations. My 'folding' was simply to the effect that if I wanted to be able to pay these reparations, we would have to bow out now, before RAD unleashed on us. I apologize that you see that as acknowledging that TPF is wrong in some way, because I never said such a thing. I'm proud to be a TPF protectorate, and no war will change that. TFO and IS were good partners to fight, and I wanted to ascertain that we could get them what they wanted Reparations wise. (Within reason.) I see no strategy in letting another alliance hit us simply to decimate our reserves and rendering us not only incapable of paying TFO and IS, but also having us owe reparations to RAD as well. Or perhaps you could point out the strategy in such? I don't really understand what you're trying to play here. First you tell me that warning me of RAD was something to help TSI, to prevent us from getting hammered. Now you're saying it was simply to make us fold? If we had 'loved our infrastructure' we would have never entered the war in the first place. I would expect that since we acted with honor towards you, and your protectorates, we would receive the same. I would hope that I am not wrong in that sentiment. You tell me you're glad we're out of the war, since you don't mind us, now you tell us we're dishonorable for surrendering? Twisted, you know I enjoy our conversations, but I must ask that if you have respect for me, you will have respect for my members as well, regardless of your disagreements in opinion. I would also probably suggest sober posting. That is all.

I would disagree. I worked closely with AUT at Soldier, and while they weren't perfect, he didn't drive them into the ground. I think that the factors of why they needed to disband can be placed on the shoulders of both AUT and Magic. AUT left to help us in Elysium, and didn't feel welcome going back. It's a very reasonable claim from Magic that he was only in the alliance two weeks, and the membership didn't know him as well, which wasn't the best move from AUT. Similarly, when you look at Soldier's nation list, you'll see a large influx of nations 13 days ago. I think Magic just needs to learn that recruiting from other planets, (OOC: Off site recruiting) may boost your numbers for a bit, but unless a government is sound and concrete, they won't be able to handle the influx of new nations. Edit: I'd also like to make the Request that AUT and Melutar stop flaming each other for once. You two give me headaches. - _ -

Welcome back, Nordreich.

It's not supposed to.

I would just like to point out that this thread has nothing to do with the morality or direction of TPF, and while I enjoy the 15+ pages of speculation and arguing, I'd love to stay on topic. Thanks.

Woah woah, we don't have any internal Implosions. >_> I think you might have put down the wrong alliance for that one OBM.

IS had much more than one war with us MBP, no worries.

I would also like to mention that I did take Twisted telling me about RAD as an act in good faith. We've been on very good terms the past few days, and I fully understand that they would want to protect their protectorates. It didn't sound like a threat to me, and I would have reacted much less friendly if he had. It was a factor in my decision, but I found it to be helpful information, rather than a threat. I do think that an alliance is obligated to defend their Protectorates, and it was used to get us out of the war, I do understand why.

The logs are correct. They brought it up as their terms, I went to Twisted about it and asked them to talk to them. However, for those saying it, I guess it was the original terms. As for the RAD comment, yes, we can't handle a full offensive of RAD, and that was basically the reason we threw in the towel. I didn't want to bring that up, but if you want to, that's fine. We could handle TFO and IS, and wanted to continue the war. When you mentioned RAD, yes, I thought about my alliance, what that kind of attack would do to them, and what reps to a third alliance would mean. So there, the reasoning for TSI's surrender, all on the table. I hardly think anyone could blame me.

We asked for what? This is our first major war. The first war that involves reps. I don't know how we could have asked for anything prior.

I would suggest you talk to us as to our reasoning before you take rash action like that.

I would like to mention, as an aside, that Internet Superheroes were some of the nicest people I've ever dealt with. Extraduty wanted very little, and I offered the tech deals to him as a thank you. I thank Internet Superheroes for this war, and would like to say that they are some of the best opponents we've faced. Not only did they fight well, but Extra personally helped us out with a few problems during the war. I would ask that no one troll them, and that they be held in good regard, because they are honorable people.

There is a time in every alliance's life where they must fight, and sometimes, surrender. It has come that time for TSI. The terms are as follows. I would like to mention that Tokugawa and I have elected to take on the individual tech deals to lessen strain on the alliance, and were not demaded by IS or TFO. Both have been good opponents in war, and TSI has been able to make a few friends in the mentioned alliances. We wish them all the best in the future. Signed for the Sasori Initiative: Shurukian, Empress Tokugawa Mitsukuni, Minister of Defense Kharn420, Minister of Foreign Affairs Signed for Internet Superheroes: Extraduty, Master of Army, Intelligence, and Murder King Xander the Only, Lord of Lolitics Sakura, Lord of Nightmares Signed for The Forsaken Ones: JensoftheDesert, Emperor Edit:: Since the posts are all burried now, I would like to mention that Extraduty has been a huge help throughout this war, and I do believe that he is a wonderful leader for IS that has an honorable commander. THD of TFO has also been a wonderful person in this, and it's saddening that he missed the talks today. Similarly, Twisted has been a good help in this war, and has kept it friendly. I thank all three of them for this. I have large amounts of respect for both parties receiving the reps, which is part of the reason why they were accepted.

Septer, it's a horrible shame that this needed to happen. You loved Terra Prime, and I'll miss all of TP. I hope I'll still see you around!