Imperial Establishment Proclamation

[Elrich von Richt]

[quote name='Michael von Prussia' timestamp='1288112294' post='2493599']
I'm afraid that the existence of your alliance says something bad about SOS団. [i]You[/i] attempted a coup, [i]you[/i] got caught, and [i]you[/i] even failed to impeach Arrnea while exploiting confusion in the aftermath. [i]You[/i] then got pouty and ran off to start your own alliance and refused to admit fault. [i]You[/i] have a lot of work to do if you want anyone to 'give it a rest'.
[/quote]

You're acting as if there's nothing on your side of the river.

To be frank, none of us really care about the past anymore. The only posts that have come from members of our alliance since are made by members of it that wish to defend it against bashing and insults from you, and several others who are following that same example. What SOS does, what happens in your alliance, what you think about us [b]isn't going to make us bat an eyelash.[/b] So stop trying so hard to piss us off, because you're getting nowhere.

[Michael von Prussia]

[quote name='Elrich von Richt' timestamp='1288112822' post='2493604']
You're acting as if there's nothing on your side of the river.
[/quote]
The minute someone attempts a coup because they know damned well they don't have the support for impeachment (as was proven when an impeachment motion [i]was[/i] brought against Arrnea), whatever you believe Arrnea did to incite such treason is hardly at issue. An impeachment mechanism was put into the Charter in case, as Tohru so affectionately put it, the Brigade Chief goes 'crazy'. You chose to ignore it, and you'll reap what you sow.

[quote name='Elrich von Richt' timestamp='1288112822' post='2493604']
To be frank, none of us really care about the past anymore.
[/quote]
And as I said previously, just because you don't care about the past doesn't mean it won't affect you.

[quote name='Elrich von Richt' timestamp='1288112822' post='2493604']
The only posts that have come from members of our alliance since are made by members of it that wish to defend it against bashing and insults from you, and several others who are following that same example. What SOS does, what happens in your alliance, what you think about us [b]isn't going to make us bat an eyelash.[/b] So stop trying so hard to piss us off, because you're getting nowhere.
[/quote]
I'm afraid to say that every post made by your puppet has been far more inflammatory than anything she could ever have claimed to be defending against. Not that I mean to detract from the wonderful job both of you are doing to act like eight-year-olds...

[size="1"][quote name='Elrich von Richt' timestamp='1287639567' post='2489482']Haters gonna hate.[/quote]
[quote name='Katsumi' timestamp='1287910028' post='2491905']Bite me.[/quote][/size]

[Tohru]

[quote name='Michael von Prussia' timestamp='1288112294' post='2493599']
I'm afraid that the existence of your alliance says something bad about SOS団. [i]You[/i] attempted a coup, [i]you[/i] got caught, and [i]you[/i] even failed to impeach Arrnea while exploiting confusion in the aftermath. [i]You[/i] then got pouty and ran off to start your own alliance and refused to admit fault. [i]You[/i] have a lot of work to do if you want anyone to 'give it a rest'
[/quote]
1) No, we did not attempt a coup.
2) Yes, we did get caught for planning to [b]impeach[/b].
3) Yes, we did fail to impeach.
4) Yes, we left, because we didn't want to be in an alliance with a leader we did not trust. Not sure how that's 'pouty'. Also, not sure what fault we had besides maybe discussing it in private. But discussing it in public especially when most weren't sure if they wanted to actually do it...we didn't want to do that. Mostly because we expected something like what Arrnea did to happen. And what do you know? It did.
5) Why we we have alot of work to do? Our alliance simply [i]existing[/i] isn't exactly like coming here and calling us all traitors among the other insults you've thrown.

[quote name='Michael von Prussia' timestamp='1288114204' post='2493617']
The minute someone attempts a coup because they know damned well they don't have the support for impeachment (as was proven when an impeachment motion [i]was[/i] brought against Arrnea), whatever you believe Arrnea did to incite such treason is hardly at issue. An impeachment mechanism was put into the Charter in case, as Tohru so affectionately put it, the Brigade Chief goes 'crazy'. You chose to ignore it, and you'll reap what you sow.[/quote]
For the coup part, I already pointed that out at the beginning of my post. Also, even according to Arrnea it was a plan to coup...not an attempt. When did we ever do anything that was in violation of the character? I'd certainly like to see that.

[quote name='Michael von Prussia' timestamp='1288114204' post='2493617']I'm afraid to say that every post made by your puppet has been far more inflammatory than anything she could ever have claimed to be defending against. Not that I mean to detract from the wonderful job both of you are doing to act like eight-year-olds...
[/quote]
Because you're totally not acting like one? And enough with the conspiracy theories, no one is a puppet. I don't know if you're calling me or Mio a puppet, but either way we are [i]completely independent[/i].

Edited October 26, 2010 by Tohru

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Michael von Prussia' timestamp='1288112294' post='2493599']
I like how even when you're taking their side, you can't help but put those quotation marks around "impeach"
[/quote]

Oh don't feel flattered. I don't really care if they were to coup or impeach Arrnea. Either way, if Arrnea fails to lead his alliance correctly, he should quit. Not blame others for wanting to fix it.

[Michael von Prussia]

[quote name='Tohru' timestamp='1288116927' post='2493641']
1) No, we did not attempt a coup.
[/quote]
You realize that no matter how many times you repeat that, I'm not going to believe it. I don't buy !@#$%^&* because I'm not in the !@#$%^&* business.

[quote name='Tohru' timestamp='1288116927' post='2493641']
Our alliance simply [i]existing[/i] isn't exactly like coming here and calling us all traitors among the other insults you've thrown.
[/quote]
If you want to call [i]my[/i] leader, a leader I trust and respect, 'crazy', don't expect me to be too flattered.

[quote name='Tohru' timestamp='1288116927' post='2493641']
Also, even according to Arrnea it was a plan to coup...not an attempt. When did we ever do anything that was in violation of the character? I'd certainly like to see that.
[/quote]
You didn't, but you were going to. People don't make plans for no reason. I have full confidence that if Arrnea hadn't done what he did—which was also entirely within the Charter—you would have.

[quote name='Tohru' timestamp='1288116927' post='2493641']
And enough with the conspiracy theories, no one is a puppet. I don't know if you're calling me or Mio a puppet, but either way we are [i]completely independent[/i].
[/quote]
And you can keep repeating that all you want, too. We all know who really runs your alliance, just because Elrica holds the title doesn't mean she's in charge.

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1288117531' post='2493645']
Oh don't feel flattered. I don't really care if they were to coup or impeach Arrnea. Either way, if Arrnea fails to lead his alliance correctly, he should quit. Not blame others for wanting to fix it.
[/quote]
Again, 'fix' is rather subjective. He lost the confidence of some members, not all. I continue to fully support him. The only doubts I ever had in his decisions was that he ever appointed Elrich to a position of power, and I guess those doubts were well-founded. Live and learn, though.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Michael von Prussia

[Tohru]

[quote name='Michael von Prussia' timestamp='1288118264' post='2493649']
You realize that no matter how many times you repeat that, I'm not going to believe it. I don't buy !@#$%^&* because I'm not in the !@#$%^&* business.


If you want to call [i]my[/i] leader, a leader I trust and respect, 'crazy', don't expect me to be too flattered.


You didn't, but you were going to. People don't make plans for no reason. I have full confidence that if Arrnea hadn't done what he did—which was also entirely within the Charter—you would have.


And you can keep repeating that all you want, too. We all know who really runs your alliance, just because Elrica holds the title doesn't mean she's in charge.
[/quote]
You also realize no matter how many times you repeat that its a coup, it's !@#$%^&*.

You were also acting the way you were before that.

And no, we weren't. And no people don't make plans for no reason. We attempted what we planned, impeachment. It failed, we left. Very simple. And yeah, you can believe with full confidence whatever you want, but it's not the truth, and I'm going to defend from false claims, sorry to tell you.

Actually, yeah, it kind of does mean that she's in charge. Contrary to popular belief, Elrich does not control everything. I'm good friends with Mio, and I can tell you that if she didn't want to do anything she did, she wouldn't have. Just because two people do the same thing, doesn't mean that one is a puppet of the other.

[Locke]

[quote name='Tohru' timestamp='1288105951' post='2493565']
Well calling us traitors for attempting to coup him is really weird, being that we didn't do that =.= but of course to you, whatever Arrnea says MUST be true. Even your neutral explaination is off. The impeachment was not because of 'point 2', it was because of the reasons we were planning to impeach him already. Besides myself, the other persons that were discussing impeachment weren't sure if they wanted to do it or not. Arrnea going crazy and removing everyone who discussed impeachment from government kind of made them realize they definitely wanted to impeach now. Mishandling events in 'point 2' is [b]in addition[/b] to the other problems we had with him.[/quote]
Oh, really? That's funny, the one who moved for impeachment tried to convince us that he wasn't one of "you." That it had nothing to do with "you." And know it is "you" who moved for impeachment? Well, nice to know I was lied to, it adds evidence to my original thought. You never intended to coup Arrnea outside of the charter, but you very well intended to fix it in your favor. A coup in intent though not in appearances, if you will. Allow me to extrapolate.

You made plans to "coup" and made sure the information got back to him because you knew he would react. It's like, if you'll pardon the crude metaphor, popping a pimple. Arrnea is IA minded, and when IA minded people spot a pimple, they pop it right away, whereas an FA minded person would apply ointment to it. IA minded people just get the job done when they know they're right. But it's exactly that which you wanted to use to incite "MORAL OUTRAGE! D:" among those who didn't hang on to Elrich's every word. You waited for him to act, then put forth Onyx to play the innocent victim card and make the impeachment. Unfortunately, you didn't expect there to be enough members who would spot your !@#$%^&* and spoil your chances.

Regardless of whether or not you intended to use your power to forcefully coup Arrnea by taking over the forums or not, you must have known full well that no matter [i]what[/i] you did it would be damaging the alliance. To not know this would be the height of idiocy and carelesness. This makes you either idiots or traitors of the highest order, and quite frankly, I'm inclined to believe either one.

[Tohru]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1288122959' post='2493681']
Oh, really? That's funny, the one who moved for impeachment tried to convince us that he wasn't one of "you." That it had nothing to do with "you." And know it is "you" who moved for impeachment? Well, nice to know I was lied to, it adds evidence to my original thought. You never intended to coup Arrnea outside of the charter, but you very well intended to fix it in your favor. A coup in intent though not in appearances, if you will. Allow me to extrapolate.[/quote]

Yes, Onyx actually didn't agree with us at first (that is, if you're talking about him...) And...no? We actually did [i]not[/i]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1288122959' post='2493681']
You made plans to "coup" and made sure the information got back to him because you knew he would react. It's like, if you'll pardon the crude metaphor, popping a pimple. Arrnea is IA minded, and when IA minded people spot a pimple, they pop it right away, whereas an FA minded person would apply ointment to it. IA minded people just get the job done when they know they're right. But it's exactly that which you wanted to use to incite "MORAL OUTRAGE! D:" among those who didn't hang on to Elrich's every word. You waited for him to act, then put forth Onyx to play the innocent victim card and make the impeachment. Unfortunately, you didn't expect there to be enough members who would spot your !@#$%^&* and spoil your chances.[/quote]

And this...is total bull. We didn't PLAN to get any reaction out of Arrnea. Man what is with people and their conspiracy theories? And Onyx went forth to make the impeachment because we wanted to avoid any possible chance we would be labeled as "not in good standing" and we really didn't want to take any chances.

And you're right, we actually did expect it to pass at first (or at least I did). If the other people considered it !@#$%^&* as you and others do, then I'm disappointed. There was only an honest plan of impeachment ever discussed, please stop making it into something incriminating when it is nothing of the sort.

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1288122959' post='2493681']
Regardless of whether or not you intended to use your power to forcefully coup Arrnea by taking over the forums or not, you must have known full well that no matter [i]what[/i] you did it would be damaging the alliance. To not know this would be the height of idiocy and carelesness. This makes you either idiots or traitors of the highest order, and quite frankly, I'm inclined to believe either one.
[/quote]

Yes, we knew it was going to harm the alliance. But anything was. We didn't want to harm the alliance though, but we couldn't keep staying with Arrnea in charge, for us it was either remove him or leave, we decided to try to remove him first.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Tohru

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='Michael von Prussia' timestamp='1288114204' post='2493617']
The minute someone attempts a coup because they know damned well they don't have the support for impeachment (as was proven when an impeachment motion [i]was[/i] brought against Arrnea), whatever you believe Arrnea did to incite such treason is hardly at issue. An impeachment mechanism was put into the Charter in case, as Tohru so affectionately put it, the Brigade Chief goes 'crazy'. You chose to ignore it, and you'll reap what you sow.

[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]You do realise how ridiculously difficult the charter makes it to unseat the brigade chief of the SOS, right? I wouldn't often say this, but that part of the charter is broken and was obviously set up like that to keep a level of rigidity in the alliance which is in fact detrimental to the alliance as a whole. This whole debacle can be in part blamed on the failings of the charter which led to you losing a significant portion of your member base who couldn't make their voices heard and couldn't change the alliance even if they wanted to.[/color]

[Michael von Prussia]

[quote name='Tohru' timestamp='1288123746' post='2493686']
And this...is total bull. We didn't PLAN to get any reaction out of Arrnea. Man what is with people and their conspiracy theories? And Onyx went forth to make the impeachment because we wanted to avoid any possible chance we would be labeled as "not in good standing" and we really didn't want to take any chances.

And you're right, we actually did expect it to pass at first (or at least I did). If the other people considered it !@#$%^&* as you and others do, then I'm disappointed. There was only an honest plan of impeachment ever discussed, please stop making it into something incriminating when it is nothing of the sort.
[/quote]
See, now you've pissed me off. First, because you label any interpretation of the situation other than your own as a conspiracy theory, and then state that Locke's trying to 'make' it incriminating, and tell him to stop. What that says to me is that first, you don't think any view other than your own is even worth being heard, and second, that you believe yourself to be in a position to determine who should be allowed to talk, and who should shut the $%&@ up.

Allow me to respond to these as tactfully as I can: first, the SOS Brigade currently has 33 members. Your alliance has 16. Far be it from me to teach you math, though obviously Elrica can't do math either, but that pretty much means ours is the prevailing belief, at least among immediately interested parties. I think that means that [i]your[/i] belief that Arrnea and his supporters conspired to persecute you, or whatever you're trying to say, is the conspiracy theory, and not the other way around. I spoke with a number of people who were in your little meeting, and what it tells me is exactly what Locke said above: even if you weren't plotting to coup Arrnea, you wanted it to look that way.

To my second point, you have more than once in this thread told people to stop talking because you disagree with their opinions. To this, I can only say, [i]welcome to the Open World Forum, leave your censorship at the door[/i]. If you want to prevent people from holding opinions contrary to your own from talking, do so on your own forums where people go because they want to be silenced. Don't do it here.

[quote name='Jens of the desert' timestamp='1288123806' post='2493687']
[color="#0000FF"]You do realise how ridiculously difficult the charter makes it to unseat the brigade chief of the SOS, right? I wouldn't often say this, but that part of the charter is broken and was obviously set up like that to keep a level of rigidity in the alliance which is in fact detrimental to the alliance as a whole. This whole debacle can be in part blamed on the failings of the charter which led to you losing a significant portion of your member base who couldn't make their voices heard and couldn't change the alliance even if they wanted to.[/color]
[/quote]
I think when you sign up for most alliances, they tell you to read the Charter. It's the basic law. If you don't agree with it, don't join, it's as simple as that. Oh, not to mention, a number of now-members of NsO were involved in drafting the original Charter, and given there was a vote on the new one (which was based off the original), pursuant to the amending procedure laid out therein, a majority of people agreed to implement the new Charter. So, if you don't agree with the Charter, leave (or don't join in the first place). That was their right. It was not their right to covertly attempt, directly or indirectly, to depose the alliance leader.

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='Michael von Prussia' timestamp='1288124881' post='2493697']
It was not their right to covertly attempt, directly or indirectly, to depose the alliance leader.
[/quote]

If they believed it was in the best interests of their alliance, I do not see why it is not within their right, rather, it is their duty as senior members of government to move the alliance in the right direction.

[dragonknight1000]

since my earlier post were ignored by the SOS/NsO posters, I'll post this again:

[quote name='dragonknight1000' timestamp='1287973766' post='2492457']
to those left in the SOS - here's something you may have overlooked: NONE of us (both SOS/NsO) wanted this to happen, some did all they could to fix it (myself included) while others were occupied tearing out one another's throats. We can't undo what occurred, all we can do now is just 'forgive and forget' and move on b/c I for one have enough of hearing this crap >_> We all #^@!-ed up one way or another (stupidity runs in the DNA :v) - that is certain but whining about it isn't going to change anyway so it's best to just let it die please. Granted, I don't have a lot of room to talk here but that's my 2 cents.
[/quote]

and to concur w/ Jens: the SOS charter at the time [i][b]was[/b][/i] flawed (and we're all dumbasses for failing to notice that V_V)

though tbh, none of this would've happen if both parties of the argument were more open and communicated w/ one another, as TVtropes put it: [url="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoorCommunicationKills"]Poor Communication Kills[/url] (thnx for the time waster, Kagami )

but alas, it wasn't so >_>

[Tohru]

[quote name='Michael von Prussia' timestamp='1288124881' post='2493697']
See, now you've pissed me off. First, because you label any interpretation of the situation other than your own as a conspiracy theory, and then state that Locke's trying to 'make' it incriminating, and tell him to stop. What that says to me is that first, you don't think any view other than your own is even worth being heard, and second, that you believe yourself to be in a position to determine who should be allowed to talk, and who should shut the $%&@ up.

Allow me to respond to these as tactfully as I can: first, the SOS Brigade currently has 33 members. Your alliance has 16. Far be it from me to teach you math, though obviously Elrica can't do math either, but that pretty much means ours is the prevailing belief, at least among immediately interested parties. I think that means that [i]your[/i] belief that Arrnea and his supporters conspired to persecute you, or whatever you're trying to say, is the conspiracy theory, and not the other way around. I spoke with a number of people who were in your little meeting, and what it tells me is exactly what Locke said above: even if you weren't plotting to coup Arrnea, you wanted it to look that way.

To my second point, you have more than once in this thread told people to stop talking because you disagree with their opinions. To this, I can only say, [i]welcome to the Open World Forum, leave your censorship at the door[/i]. If you want to prevent people from holding opinions contrary to your own from talking, do so on your own forums where people go because they want to be silenced. Don't do it here.


I think when you sign up for most alliances, they tell you to read the Charter. It's the basic law. If you don't agree with it, don't join, it's as simple as that. Oh, not to mention, a number of now-members of NsO were involved in drafting the original Charter, and given there was a vote on the new one (which was based off the original), pursuant to the amending procedure laid out therein, a majority of people agreed to implement the new Charter. So, if you don't agree with the Charter, leave (or don't join in the first place). That was their right. It was not their right to covertly attempt, directly or indirectly, to depose the alliance leader.
[/quote]
I told you to stop bashing us, not to stop talking. There's a difference. And 33 members doesn't really mean anything, if most are inactive. It was about, what, 46 before the impeachment? And 13 voted yes, assuming they all left the alliance, and then there's 12 + 5 abstain, that makes 17 active. This is completely an estimate, but although our alliance is smaller, about our entire alliance is active. I don't think the same can be said for SOS Brigade.

And yeah, when your 'opinion' is telling us we're traitors that should be destroyed, I'm going to make a fuss. I don't think the 'view' of bashing us is really something that should be happening.

I'm not going to make that much larger of a post because you seem to ignore every thing I say, really no point to keep it up.

[quote name='dragonknight1000' timestamp='1288125495' post='2493709']
since my earlier post were ignored by the SOS/NsO posters, I'll post this again:



and to concur w/ Jens: the SOS charter at the time [i][b]was[/b][/i] flawed (and we're all dumbasses for failing to notice that V_V)

though tbh, none of this would've happen if both parties of the argument were more open and communicated w/ one another, as TVtropes put it: [url="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoorCommunicationKills"]Poor Communication Kills[/url] (thnx for the time waster, Kagami )

but alas, it wasn't so >_>
[/quote]
I would be up for that but its hard to be when the other side just starts out %^&*ing on you.


Really all I want is a more civil discussion, but when I try to get it I pretty much get told I'm a jerk.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Tohru

[Locke]

[quote name='Tohru' timestamp='1288123746' post='2493686']
Yes, Onyx actually didn't agree with us at first (that is, if you're talking about him...) And...no? We actually did [i]not[/i]



And this...is total bull. We didn't PLAN to get any reaction out of Arrnea. Man what is with people and their conspiracy theories? And Onyx went forth to make the impeachment because we wanted to avoid any possible chance we would be labeled as "not in good standing" and we really didn't want to take any chances.

And you're right, we actually did expect it to pass at first (or at least I did). If the other people considered it !@#$%^&* as you and others do, then I'm disappointed. There was only an honest plan of impeachment ever discussed, please stop making it into something incriminating when it is nothing of the sort.



Yes, we knew it was going to harm the alliance. But anything was. We didn't want to harm the alliance though, but we couldn't keep staying with Arrnea in charge, for us it was either remove him or leave, we decided to try to remove him first.
[/quote]
You were a conspiracy, of course it's a conspiracy theory. You conspired to get rid of Arrnea by whatever means necessary, no matter how bad it was for the alliance because Elrich was your almighty savior and he could make everything right again. And sadly, pardon if I don't believe a word you say, you've broken my trust in you and your group long ago.

Your original reasons for impeachment were weak, your latter ones made up, and most people who weren't already in your camp agreed.

Let me get one thing straight here; you and your friends opened the war against both my alliance and me personally. I don't take that kind of !@#$ lying down. Whatever you say or do from now on in relation to us will be forever tinted by that fact. When you open hostilities, don't !@#$%* and moan when your opponent wants to fight back.

[quote name='dragonknight1000' timestamp='1288125495' post='2493709']
since my earlier post were ignored by the SOS/NsO posters, I'll post this again:



and to concur w/ Jens: the SOS charter at the time [i][b]was[/b][/i] flawed (and we're all dumbasses for failing to notice that V_V)

though tbh, none of this would've happen if both parties of the argument were more open and communicated w/ one another, as TVtropes put it: [url="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoorCommunicationKills"]Poor Communication Kills[/url] (thnx for the time waster, Kagami )

but alas, it wasn't so >_>
[/quote]
There really wasn't anything wrong with the charter. It [i]should[/i] be difficult to remove the Brigade Chief, and if it was easier, Arrnea would be dethroned and you'd see [i]the other half[/i] of the alliance splintering. I, for one, would have left if their hostile takeover succeeded.

[Tohru]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1288127711' post='2493728']
You were a conspiracy, of course it's a conspiracy theory. You conspired to get rid of Arrnea by whatever means necessary, no matter how bad it was for the alliance because Elrich was your almighty savior and he could make everything right again. And sadly, pardon if I don't believe a word you say, you've broken my trust in you and your group long ago.

Your original reasons for impeachment were weak, your latter ones made up, and most people who weren't already in your camp agreed.

Let me get one thing straight here; you and your friends opened the war against both my alliance and me personally. I don't take that kind of !@#$ lying down. Whatever you say or do from now on in relation to us will be forever tinted by that fact. When you open hostilities, don't !@#$%* and moan when your opponent wants to fight back.[/quote]
Uh, okay, you totally ignored what I said too =.= And no, again, impeachment freaking only, there wasn't any dang 'whatever means necessary' Unless there was some separate discussion without me, none of that happened. And if there was, then I'd be disappointed with whoever said it should be by whatever means necessary. The discussion [u][i][b]I[/b][/i][/u] was part of was only of impeachment. I don't agree with illegal couping, I wouldn't have planned that.

And [i]we[/i] didn't 'open hostilities'. You say you don't take !@#$ lying down, but you and others seem to expect us to. It almost seems like (though I'm not sure if you mean to) you would despise us even if you DIDN'T think we were trying to coup. It feels like the mere idea of opposing Arrnea is some sort of sin. We didn't like Arrnea as our leader, we're not going to just take !@#$ for no reason other than to appease people that would be flippant.

We wanted to have a leader we would be comfortable with. If we can't trust our current leader and are not comfortable with him/her, then we either try to remove the leader (Through dang impeachment) or form our own alliance.

We almost decided to just leave and make this alliance in the first place but we wanted to try to see if we could impeach him so we wouldn't have to leave and split the alliance. I guess you would have preferred that. I almost prefer it myself, then we wouldn't have to deal with all this !@#$%^&*. But we didn't want to just rip apart the alliance that quickly. In an impeachment there would still be a vote for Brigade Chief, it just would have had to be someone besides Arrnea. It's not as if we would have been able to just take control that easily.

I do apologize though, for hurting you. Not that you trust me enough to believe that, but I'm just going to say it anyway. No one intended to hurt anyone, we just wanted a leader we could trust. Is that so wrong?

[Michael von Prussia]

[quote name='Tohru' timestamp='1288125809' post='2493713']
I told you to stop bashing us, not to stop talking. There's a difference.
[/quote]
If I see a traitor, I'mma call him out. If it offends you that I tell you you're a traitor, the solution is to not give me the opportunity by being one.

[quote name='Tohru' timestamp='1288125809' post='2493713']
And yeah, when your 'opinion' is telling us we're traitors that should be destroyed, I'm going to make a fuss. I don't think the 'view' of bashing us is really something that should be happening.
[/quote]
The closest I got to saying you should be destroyed is my remark about NSO rolling you over the acronym. Your point about me "bashing" you was dealt with earlier in this post.

[quote name='Tohru' timestamp='1288125809' post='2493713']
Really all I want is a more civil discussion, but when I try to get it I pretty much get told I'm a jerk.
[/quote]
I think that my conduct in this has been pretty civil. If you disagree, that's your right and opinion. But if you think that my calling you traitors for being such is in any way uncivil, I suggest you reread the first part of this post again: [i]If I see a traitor, I'mma call him out. If it offends you that I tell you you're a traitor, the solution is to not give me the opportunity by being one.[/i] You see it this time, or shall I break it down for you? [size="1"]SUBJECT[/size] [color="#000080"]You[/color] [size="1"]PREDICATE[/size] [color="#8B0000"]were a traitor[/color]; [size="1"]SUBJECT[/size] [color="#000080"]I[/color] [size="1"]PREDICATE[/size] [color="#8B0000"]am calling you on it[/color]. Traitor.

[Locke]

[quote name='Tohru' timestamp='1288128703' post='2493737']
Uh, okay, you totally ignored what I said too =.= And no, again, impeachment freaking only, there wasn't any dang 'whatever means necessary' Unless there was some separate discussion without me, none of that happened. And if there was, then I'd be disappointed with whoever said it should be by whatever means necessary. The discussion [u][i][b]I[/b][/i][/u] was part of was only of impeachment. I don't agree with illegal couping, I wouldn't have planned that.

And [i]we[/i] didn't 'open hostilities'. You say you don't take !@#$ lying down, but you and others seem to expect us to. It almost seems like (though I'm not sure if you mean to) you would despise us even if you DIDN'T think we were trying to coup. It feels like the mere idea of opposing Arrnea is some sort of sin. We didn't like Arrnea as our leader, we're not going to just take !@#$ for no reason other than to appease people that would be flippant.

We wanted to have a leader we would be comfortable with. If we can't trust our current leader and are not comfortable with him/her, then we either try to remove the leader (Through dang impeachment) or form our own alliance.

We almost decided to just leave and make this alliance in the first place but we wanted to try to see if we could impeach him so we wouldn't have to leave and split the alliance. I guess you would have preferred that. I almost prefer it myself, then we wouldn't have to deal with all this !@#$%^&*. But we didn't want to just rip apart the alliance that quickly. In an impeachment there would still be a vote for Brigade Chief, it just would have had to be someone besides Arrnea. It's not as if we would have been able to just take control that easily.

I do apologize though, for hurting you. Not that you trust me enough to believe that, but I'm just going to say it anyway. No one intended to hurt anyone, we just wanted a leader we could trust. Is that so wrong?
[/quote]
Well, I wouldn't be surprised if higher level talks took place, but that's not what I'm referring to. You believed the course of action you took, as I decribed above, was all that was necessary. You said so yourself, that you expected it to work, as silly as that belief was. And by that point, it was too late to try any more drastic measures.

If you didn't like Arrnea, and you knew you would hurt the alliance by taking action, and you talked to him and couldn't resolve the issue (which you skipped, I might add), then you should have just [i]left[/i]. Trying to drag the whole alliance down with you is a sign that you were either idiots or [i]wanted[/i] to hurt the alliance as a whole. If you don't like Arrnea, fine, but there are better ways to deal with it than what you did. What you did was flat-out treachery. You conspired to damage the alliance and either failed to or decided not to fully contemplate the consequences. Either one is enough to gain the ire of any sensible member of those you conspired against, as you very well have.

I'm willing to believe you didn't, but that does leave me with the "monumental idiot" conclusion. You'd have to be blind, deaf, dumb (both the mute and stupid kind ) to not forsee what your actions wrought. To not see so is childish and stupid at best, criminally negligent at worst.

[Tohru]

[quote name='Michael von Prussia' timestamp='1288128814' post='2493738']
If I see a traitor, I'mma call him out. If it offends you that I tell you you're a traitor, the solution is to not give me the opportunity by being one.
[/quote]
And, I'm kind of not, so, I can't do much else if you keep thinking I am one when I'm not.

[quote name='Michael von Prussia' timestamp='1288128814' post='2493738']
I think that my conduct in this has been pretty civil. If you disagree, that's your right and opinion. But if you think that my calling you traitors for being such is in any way uncivil, I suggest you reread the first part of this post again: [i]If I see a traitor, I'mma call him out. If it offends you that I tell you you're a traitor, the solution is to not give me the opportunity by being one.[/i] You see it this time, or shall I break it down for you? [size="1"]SUBJECT[/size] [color="#000080"]You[/color] [size="1"]PREDICATE[/size] [color="#8B0000"]were a traitor[/color]; [size="1"]SUBJECT[/size] [color="#000080"]I[/color] [size="1"]PREDICATE[/size] [color="#8B0000"]am calling you on it[/color]. Traitor.
[/quote]
What is your non-civil conduct then?

And No. I was not.

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1288129649' post='2493754']
Well, I wouldn't be surprised if higher level talks took place, but that's not what I'm referring to. You believed the course of action you took, as I decribed above, was all that was necessary. You said so yourself, that you expected it to work, as silly as that belief was. And by that point, it was too late to try any more drastic measures.

If you didn't like Arrnea, and you knew you would hurt the alliance by taking action, and you talked to him and couldn't resolve the issue (which you skipped, I might add), then you should have just [i]left[/i]. Trying to drag the whole alliance down with you is a sign that you were either idiots or [i]wanted[/i] to hurt the alliance as a whole. If you don't like Arrnea, fine, but there are better ways to deal with it than what you did. What you did was flat-out treachery. You conspired to damage the alliance and either failed to or decided not to fully contemplate the consequences. Either one is enough to gain the ire of any sensible member of those you conspired against, as you very well have.

I'm willing to believe you didn't, but that does leave me with the "monumental idiot" conclusion. You'd have to be blind, deaf, dumb (both the mute and stupid kind ) to not forsee what your actions wrought. To not see so is childish and stupid at best, criminally negligent at worst.
[/quote]
Well if you're talking about what I was in then that really didn't happen. I don't even know how you can prove that it did, as I can't even prove that it didn't, it was done mostly through voice, so its not like its something that can be logged, besides stuff I've said (can't recall anyone else talking with typing much).

Actually, yeah, we did try to. Thing is Arrnea tends to not care what people think. Example of another reason we wanted him impeached. He certainly didn't care what I thought, just called me a !@#$%* instead. And yeah, probably right. We probably should have just left, but we thought if we just impeached it would get better. We knew it would still be bad either way, we just figured that impeachment would be less bad than just leaving. Apparently we were wrong. I guess we were too...optimistic I guess?

Edited October 26, 2010 by Tohru

[Thrash]

Too much cartoons in this thread.

Locke

[Frostfirefox]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1288127711' post='2493728']
no matter how bad it was for the alliance
[/quote]

I think them leaving was worse than them trying to impeach Arrnea. Check your government.

Whats this?! You have a traitor in your government who had previously threatened members of your alliance?! You have someone whom Arrnea said he never wanted anything to do with again back into gov?! More?! Are you telling me Arrnea recruited his RL friend to fill in a government spot?!

Past is past. I know you and your obsessive fan MvP want to be very extreme on the matter, but really. Each side failed to a point. Not having faith in your leader is much less of a failure than going power mad however. I don't find wanting to impeach a leader who has failed (clearly still failing determining the gov) as bad. You can argue they tried to illegally coup him. But whats the difference between impeaching and a coup. It's not like they could assassinate Arrnea and claim power through the forums etc. etc. Either way they would have needed a vast amount of support. And guess what. Clearly there was support for it, or else NsO wouldn't have been made . Shocker I know. Also, your charter does need to be fixed. I heard Arrnea 'revised it' and put that 80% crap in it. But that's just what I heard.

Edit: removed a line i was going to do something with, but ended up not

Edited October 27, 2010 by Frostfirefox

[Elrich von Richt]

*facedesks*

I didn't think the views held by the opposing side could get any more ridiculous.

How many times must I personally say it, hmm? Both sides made their mistakes, and that [b]includes[/b] mine.

You have the right to call us traitors if you damn well please, but this dosen't mean we can't [i]ignore you like the barking dogs you are[/i].

Edit: Topic Lock Requested.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Elrich von Richt

[Michael von Prussia]

[quote name='Frostfirefox' timestamp='1288145386' post='2493963']
I know you and your obsessive fan MvP want to be very extreme on the matter, but really.
[/quote]
What?

I don't know you, I've never talked to you, heard from you, or seen you before, so could you kindly not make statements that appear to be meant as insults towards me? My comments in this thread are my own and have nothing to do with Locke. If you have a problem with them, why don't you point them out nicely to [i]me[/i], and not someone who did not make them. I'd appreciate it.

[Ginryusama]

[quote name='dragonknight1000' timestamp='1288125495' post='2493709']
since my earlier post were ignored by the SOS/NsO posters, I'll post this again:



and to concur w/ Jens: the SOS charter at the time [i][b]was[/b][/i] flawed (and we're all [b]dumbasses[/b] for failing to notice that V_V)
[/quote]
This sounds amusing. You guys only failed for creating your cheap copy of SOS. The charter was amended, iirc, by the help of your current chief/empress or whatever, so did you mean she was a dumbass too?

[lordliam]

I love it when a DoE turns into a "haters gonna hate" and "no u" thread.

[Elrich von Richt]

[quote name='Ginryusama' timestamp='1288148466' post='2494005']
This sounds amusing. You guys only failed for creating your cheap copy of SOS. The charter was amended, iirc, by the help of your current chief/empress or whatever, so did you mean she was a dumbass too?
[/quote]

...and you're saying you're not a horribly failed carbon copy of Medix?