Should alliances allow spying on their own members?

[threefingeredguy]

Who cares? Just do whatever ye want and accept the consequences.

[the rebel]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284938546' post='2458504']
2- Go to any ship page. Hover over the team color. Ta-da.

Like I said. Everything was 100% accurate.[/quote]

Never knew about #2 and never had the need too either, still dont.

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1284876335' post='2457907']
Checking TheRebel's dubloons history showed he had 5 active dubloons transactions and a Disaster Relief Agency wonder which meant he should have one dubloons transaction available to him. GOONS verified that a secret dubloons transaction had been sent by TheRebel by attempting to send him dubloons. They could not as they were informed that all TheRebel's dubloons slots were in use. Verifiable evidence, exhibit C.[/quote]

Also like i said this isnt 100% accurate and here's why, if i had 5 active dubloons slots being used before GOONS even attempted sending me dubloons then how do ye explain a GOONS dubloons offer sitting on me ship dubloons screen for 30mins, if they wasnt able to send?

Either GOONS lied or Tygaland made a factual error in his post and therefor not 100% accurate.

Which be it pezstar?

[pezstar]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1284947728' post='2458604']
Never knew about #2 and never had the need too either, still dont.



Also like i said this isnt 100% accurate and here's why, if i had 5 active dubloons slots being used before GOONS even attempted sending me dubloons then how do ye explain a GOONS dubloons offer sitting on me ship dubloons screen for 30mins, if they wasnt able to send?

Either GOONS lied or Tygaland made a factual error in his post and therefor not 100% accurate.

Which be it pezstar?
[/quote]

ye left out one option. ye could be lying as well. I tried to send ye an dubloons offer meself that evening to verify that your slots were full. I got the slots full error message.

[the rebel]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284948046' post='2458609']
ye left out one option. ye could be lying as well. I tried to send ye an dubloons offer meself that evening to verify that your slots were full. I got the slots full error message.
[/quote]

I have no reason to lie, anyone who knows me proper, knows that im honest/trustworthy and upfront when spoken to and asked things. But since i was stabbed in the back by an fleet i gave blood and selflessly used most of me slot allowance unlike most who couldnt care to give dubloons to the small members.

It does speak volumes that the knife was chosen before the words.

[pezstar]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1284949016' post='2458628']
I have no reason to lie, anyone who knows me proper, knows that im honest/trustworthy and upfront when spoken to and asked things. But since i was stabbed in the back by an fleet i gave blood and selflessly used most of me slot allowance unlike most who couldnt care to give dubloons to the small members.

It does speak volumes that the knife was chosen before the words.
[/quote]

Anyone who knows STA would say the same about us, as far as being honest/trustworthy. At the end of the day, ye sent dubloons, ye got caught. ye can keep right on whining to the STA membership. ye can continue whining on the OWF about how unfair it be that ye got caught. The bottom line, though, be that ye got caught, and now very few people trust ye anymore.

[the rebel]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284949188' post='2458632']
Anyone who knows STA would say the same about us, as far as being honest/trustworthy. At the end of the day, ye sent dubloons, ye got caught. ye can keep right on whining to the STA membership. ye can continue whining on the OWF about how unfair it be that ye got caught. The bottom line, though, be that ye got caught, and now very few people trust ye anymore.
[/quote]

Whose whining? Not me.
Who got caught? Not me.
Who would of confessed if asked before the spy attacks? Me
Who owned up when they still didnt have solid proof? Me.
Who agreed to pay booty before nukes hurt mine and the hearties GOONS sent? Me

Ye see pezstar that isnt whining, that isnt getting caught, thats being honest. ye can carry on trying to twist it as me "crying" as much as ye want, but the facts be clear as day above, stop the nonsense of trying to make me look a crying fool as its making ye look one.

I understand me reputation be in disrepute, but whats broken can be fixed.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284948046' post='2458609']
ye left out one option. ye could be lying as well. I tried to send ye an dubloons offer meself that evening to verify that your slots were full. I got the slots full error message.
[/quote]

I also attempted to send TheRebel dubloons when presented with the evidence I referred to by GOONS. I also saw 5 active dubloons transactions and received a message saying I could not send dubloons as all dubloons slots were in use at the time. As I said, what was presented to me was easily verifiable.

As for whining. Well, ye haven't so much whined but played the victim in an instance where ye be most certainly not a victim. Sadly, the facts just don't support your assertions. thar were four lots of evidence presented to the STA which then convinced us that a spy op was required to see once and for all whether ye had sent the dubloons.

As it turns out the spy ops failed and ye then confessed to GOONS once ye realised that they were going to keep investigating until they confirmed whether or not ye sent the dubloons for certain. ye can complain about your treatment by the STA all ye like but the reality be that ye sent dubloons to a nuke scallywag knowing full well what the repercussions would be (morso as Corinan had only just done it a week earlier). The STA attempted to clear the issue as soon as possible. Now ye got caught out ye want to play the victim card and that be fine, it just isn't correct. The only thing ye were a victim of was your own stupidity.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Tygaland

[the rebel]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1284951832' post='2458668']
Words[/quote]

Not even playing the victim, i owned up and agreed to pay a large fine, i just didnt like the route taken that by-passed talking to the accused whether guilty or not, it wasnt like i or the secret dubloons was going anywhere, also was a highly active privateer not some inactive ye never see so wouldnt of been hard to get in contact within hours

Thats all i disagreed with, people either agree with me point or disagree.

[pezstar]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1284952769' post='2458681']
Not even playing the victim, i owned up and agreed to pay a large fine, i just didnt like the route taken that by-passed talking to the accused whether guilty or not, it wasnt like i or the secret dubloons was going anywhere, also was a highly active privateer not some inactive ye never see so wouldnt of been hard to get in contact within hours

Thats all i disagreed with, people either agree with me point or disagree.
[/quote]

ye seem to forget that ye did not know that STA authorized the spy attack on your ship when ye refused to answer the question. ye had no idea we had anything to do with it. Once I told ye it was us, ye decided to try to use that as some way to victimize yourself.

[the rebel]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284953912' post='2458690']
ye seem to forget that ye did not know that STA authorized the spy attack on your ship when ye refused to answer the question. ye had no idea we had anything to do with it. Once I told ye it was us, ye decided to try to use that as some way to victimize yourself.
[/quote]

Well adding the two MK spy attacks and ye demanding me through message to come on irc together, so i had an inkling what it was about, i might play dumb at times but im far from it.

[pezstar]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1284954358' post='2458692']
Well adding the two MK spy attacks and ye demanding me through message to come on irc together, so i had an inkling what it was about, i might play dumb at times but im far from it.
[/quote]

ye attempted to help Methrage, but ended up helping GOONS 30 times more. Literally.

[the rebel]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284954706' post='2458694']
ye attempted to help Methrage, but ended up helping GOONS 30 times more. Literally.
[/quote]

True, but ive been a high slot banker since NoCB so it isnt really effecting me grog gains just me banking, but a mistake non the less which ive got to live with and learnt never to do again...

[LeonidasRexII]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1284955167' post='2458698']
True, but ive been a high slot banker since NoCB so it isnt really effecting me grog gains just me banking, but a mistake non the less which ive got to live with and learnt never to do again...
[/quote]

Pezstar and the rebel kindly take this somewhere else. This thread was intended to explore a policy point not to re-hash your grievances.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='LeonidasRexII' timestamp='1285037295' post='2459572']
Pezstar and the rebel kindly take this somewhere else. This thread was intended to explore a policy point not to re-hash your grievances.
[/quote]

When your policy discussion is nothing more than a thinly-veiled rehash of the issue Pez and TheRebel were arguing about, it is a bit rich to complain when the discussion goes the way it did.

[LeonidasRexII]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1285040525' post='2459606']
When your policy discussion is nothing more than a thinly-veiled rehash of the issue Pez and TheRebel were arguing about, it is a bit rich to complain when the discussion goes the way it did.
[/quote]

First off there's nothing "veiled" about it. I specifically stated where my idea came from in the OP and linked to the dispute in question.

Secondly, I'm not complaining. I'm asking those involved in the argument to take that argument elsewhere. I thought it was a more than reasonable request considering that there's a huge thread involving the actual dispute.

[pezstar]

[quote name='LeonidasRexII' timestamp='1285041099' post='2459611']
First off there's nothing "veiled" about it. I specifically stated where my idea came from in the OP and linked to the dispute in question.

Secondly, I'm not complaining. I'm asking those involved in the argument to take that argument elsewhere. I thought it was a more than reasonable request considering that there's a huge thread involving the actual dispute.
[/quote]

You're right. There's absolutely a thread about the actual dispute. It's this one. Your request is denied.

[Jakome]

Can ye all starrrrrt talking like pirrrates again?

[LeonidasRexII]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1285050518' post='2459740']
You're right. There's absolutely a thread about the actual dispute. It's this one. Your request is denied.
[/quote]

Okay have it your way. Now that this isn't just a general policy discussion let's talk about the case at hand.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's how I understand what happened:

[list=1][*]GOONS came to you and accused a STA member of aiding a known rogue[*]They provided evidence of that accusation[*]To avoid conflict with GOONS you requested that MK carry out a spy op on the suspect[*]Both spy ops were unsuccessful so you questioned him[*]That too was unsuccessful so the suspect was expelled from STA[/list]Once you correct/verify my concept of what happened I'll go on with my points.

[pezstar]

[quote name='LeonidasRexII' timestamp='1285122038' post='2460510']
Okay have it your way. Now that this isn't just a general policy discussion let's talk about the case at hand.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's how I understand what happened:

[list=1][*]GOONS came to you and accused a STA member of aiding a known rogue[*]They provided evidence of that accusation[*]To avoid conflict with GOONS you requested that MK carry out a spy op on the suspect[*]Both spy ops were unsuccessful so you questioned him[*]That too was unsuccessful so the suspect was expelled from STA[/list]Once you correct/verify my concept of what happened I'll go on with my points.
[/quote]

Sounds about right.

[Joseph Black]

Interesting, I trust my members to tell me the truth. I would ask the member if they did it. If they said no, I would pass along the message. If they said yes, they would be removed, the same would go if they refused to give an answer. If later I found out that my ally spied anyway, I would drop the treaty regardless and defend my member, pending the result of the spy report further action may or may not be taken against the member internally.

[Mandolus]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285145026' post='2460807']
Interesting, I trust my members to tell me the truth. I would ask the member if they did it. If they said no, I would pass along the message. If they said yes, they would be removed, the same would go if they refused to give an answer. If later I found out that my ally spied anyway, I would drop the treaty regardless and defend my member, pending the result of the spy report further action may or may not be taken against the member internally.
[/quote]

Ok, let's pretend you were presented the evidence that STA was. Your member has an unaccounted for slot. Which means, they sent secret aid to [i]someone[/i]. They've also been actively posting in a topic about the rogue in question, who has received secret aid. This member also switched colours to send the secret aid, and the rogue in question is sanctioned on the member's original colour. You ask the member if they sent aid, and they tell you no.

You're going to defend this person?

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285145026' post='2460807']
Interesting, I trust my members to tell me the truth. I would ask the member if they did it. If they said no, I would pass along the message. If they said yes, they would be removed, the same would go if they refused to give an answer. If later I found out that my ally spied anyway, I would drop the treaty regardless and defend my member, pending the result of the spy report further action may or may not be taken against the member internally.
[/quote]
Nobody has answered my question yet, so for argument's sake let's ask it again.

Let's say this scenario unfolds. You're presented with the evidence that STA was. That is, it can be proven that a member of yours did send secret aid (although to who isn't clear). You ask if he sent secret aid to a specific someone and they say no. Now, you take the person's word and tell the accusers to shove off because you'll have none of their spying shenanigans.

Later, by whatever means, it's proven that they DID send the aid to that certain someone. They lied to you, and you backed them fully, interfering with the process because you trusted your member too much and didn't want to get proof. Will you accept your alliance being attacked for supporting your member in aiding a nuclear rogue and not doing anything about it?

[Joseph Black]

I honestly don't know the situation that was presented to STA as I'm not STA, and I have no understanding of secret aid or how it works.I trust my members to be honest with me, none of my members have ever given me a reason to question them so yes I would take them at their word. Yes again, I would fight tooth and nail to defend the member until I was proven wrong.

Edit

Missed your last question Beef. I would not support such an action, however it really wouldn't be up to me if it came to war or not. I would take responsibility for it though, as I would anything a member does, no matter how small.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Muddog

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285170957' post='2461015']
I honestly don't know the situation that was presented to STA as I'm not STA, and I have no understanding of secret aid or how it works.I trust my members to be honest with me, none of my members have ever given me a reason to question them so yes I would take them at their word. Yes again, I would fight tooth and nail to defend the member until I was proven wrong.

Edit

Missed your last question Beef. I would not support such an action, however it really wouldn't be up to me if it came to war or not. I would take responsibility for it though, as I would anything a member does, no matter how small.
[/quote]
Let's hope it doesn't come to that then. Everyone saying they'll put their faith in the member without allowing spy ops (to prove or disprove the accusation) is putting their full support behind that member. That means you're responsible for their actions when it comes down to it. Which also means if you were lied to, you're putting your whole alliance at risk.

[LeonidasRexII]

[quote name='LeonidasRexII' timestamp='1285122038' post='2460510']
Okay have it your way. Now that this isn't just a general policy discussion let's talk about the case at hand.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's how I understand what happened:

[list=1][*]GOONS came to you and accused a STA member of aiding a known rogue[*]They provided evidence of that accusation[*]To avoid conflict with GOONS you requested that MK carry out a spy op on the suspect[*]Both spy ops were unsuccessful so you questioned him[*]That too was unsuccessful so the suspect was expelled from STA[/list]Once you correct/verify my concept of what happened I'll go on with my points.
[/quote]


[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1285131946' post='2460642']
Sounds about right.
[/quote]

Now that that's out of the way I have some questions:

[list=1][*]Why, when presented with the accusation, was your first course of action to request help outside your alliance?[*]Is this a common practice in the STA and do you seek outside assistance in other areas of alliance business?[*]Since you felt you needed outside assistance for this problem; do you still consider the STA to be a sovereign alliance?[*]When are STA members trusted, or at least given the benefit of the doubt, above the wants of other alliances?[*]Considering that these actions resulted in the expulsion of the member in question, why weren't they questioned first?[/list]Speaking to question 5; if they admitted to wrong-doing they could be punished, then if they refused punishment or didn't answer the questions they could have still been expelled for insubordination. I'm not understanding why the extra risk was taken because if the accusations proved false, but the spy op discovered STA would have still lost a member, but if the member admitted to the problem and accepted punishment a high-value nation could have been kept in the alliance while at the same time averting a problem with GOONS.

But wait there's more.

As I was writing this another thought occurred to me which leads to yet another question. You are the STA's Minister of Foreign Affairs and as such are responsible for the STA's relationship with other alliances, correct? (that's not the ? this is -->) Due to your position do you think that you were the best person to make a decision like this? GOONS have made some very significant strides over the past months, and if they kept their current growth up would make a very good treaty partner. If plans were in place for a future STA-GOONS treaty I could see why you would be so quick to acquiesce to GOONS.