In Response to Recent Drama

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281662708' post='2413585']
Where did I justify what what happened? I'm just telling you how it happened.
[/quote]

Listing the reasons, and then laying down the justifications for them is...justification.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Chron

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281662875' post='2413590']
Listing the reasons, and then laying down the justifications for them is...justification.
[/quote]

The exact reason was Omni believed Heft or someone should have came the night Hoo was around talking about the situation. That was the reason given. That's just a fact. Omni was of the opinion it was enough to break the treaty. That is also a fact. If it were me I would have probably let it slide but I'm not the guy up top anymore. That clarify things? That's all I'm trying to say.

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281663224' post='2413599']
The exact reason was Omni believed Heft or someone should have came the night Hoo was around talking about the situation. That was the reason given. That's just a fact. Omni was of the opinion it was enough to break the treaty. That is also a fact. If it were me I would have probably let it slide but I'm not the guy up top anymore. That clarify things? That's all I'm trying to say.
[/quote]
Thats...For lack of a better word, an incredibly absurd reason for canceling a treaty. Omni was told, up front, not to participate after he suggested the idea to RV.

And after a considerable conversation between the two of them, where he tells RV


[17:22] <Omniscientone[gato]> oh ok well. I'm sure you know this whole thing pits us against everyone of our other allies :/
06[17:23] * Omniscientone[gato] nods
01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> I'm hoping this doesn't have to come to war.
01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> And if it does I really hope it doesn't affect any of our other allies.
01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> Honestly I wouldn't mind dropping everyone of our treaties right now.
01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> This is our mistake, and it should be on us.

And this

[17:30] <Omniscientone[gato]> I read your logs.
[17:30] <Omniscientone[gato]> and I like the way you handled things

Then obviously he was BSing your alliance. Or at least being blatantly two faced with us. Given the circumstances, it's pretty clear that claiming we were bad allies to you all when 1) He implied GATO assistance and was turned down 2) Told us he agreed with the way we had handled it, makes him someone of dubious trustworthiness.

Citing "bad communication" for breaking our treaty isnt a justification, it's an excuse. Take that nonsense to someone naive enough to believe it.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281664592' post='2413642']
Thats...For lack of a better word, an incredibly absurd reason for canceling a treaty. Omni was told, up front, not to participate after he suggested the idea to RV.

And after a considerable conversation between the two of them, where he tells RV


[17:22] <Omniscientone[gato]> oh ok well. I'm sure you know this whole thing pits us against everyone of our other allies :/
06[17:23] * Omniscientone[gato] nods
01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> I'm hoping this doesn't have to come to war.
01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> And if it does I really hope it doesn't affect any of our other allies.
01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> Honestly I wouldn't mind dropping everyone of our treaties right now.
01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> This is our mistake, and it should be on us.

And this

[17:30] <Omniscientone[gato]> I read your logs.
[17:30] <Omniscientone[gato]> and I like the way you handled things

Then obviously he was BSing your alliance. Or at least being blatantly two faced with us. Given the circumstances, it's pretty clear that claiming we were bad allies to you all when 1) He implied GATO assistance and was turned down 2) Told us he agreed with the way we had handled it, makes him someone of dubious trustworthiness.

Citing "bad communication" for breaking our treaty isnt a justification, it's an excuse. Take that nonsense to someone naive enough to believe it.
[/quote]

You and everyone else are welcome to your opinion Chron. Like I said I would've let it slide but I too probably would have liked to have known at the first sign of a threat. Who wouldn't?

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281664768' post='2413649']
You and everyone else are welcome to your opinion Chron. Like I said I would've let it slide but I too probably would have liked to have known at the first sign of a threat. Who wouldn't?
[/quote]
Hell, we would have too. But obviously we didn't think there was a threat when this first came about.

Whoops.

Oh well, you'd think if folks were worthwhile allies they'd take into account that sometimes oversights and mistakes happen. I guess GATO has a somewhat different definition, then?

Edited August 13, 2010 by Chron

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281664886' post='2413655']
Hell, we would have too. But obviously we didn't think there was a threat when this first came about.

Whoops. Have fun with that temporal argument Omni laid out earlier, and has been beaten to death long since.
[/quote]

That's fine Chron but Omni obviously believed Hoo was making pretty specific threats. I honestly do to there. I don;t know many who have seen the logs who don't see any reason why Hoo's threat shouldn't have been taken seriously. All opinions again and it's unfortunate we disagree.

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281665006' post='2413660']
That's fine Chron but Omni obviously believed Hoo was making pretty specific threats. I honestly do to there. I don;t know many who have seen the logs who don't see any reason why Hoo's threat shouldn't have been taken seriously. All opinions again and it's unfortunate we disagree.
[/quote]
The only person who didn't was Heft. And Heft was pretty tired, or drunk, or whatever. The point is that he didn't think it would escalate so quickly. And RV was informed when he took over the discussion that things were probably not a big deal either.

We've said this before so many times, if the person directly involved doesn't see a problem, and the others coming into it are convinced that there isn't a problem, then they aren't going to think that there's a problem.

Of course, hindsight is also 20/20.

So, once again we come back to the main crux of the issue. If GATO took our status as allies at all seriously, they would have understood that sometimes oversights and mistakes happen, and not informing you all at Midnight and 4 in the morning respectively is an example of that.

On the other hand, if Omni went into a tirade about an imaginary plot of us trying to use you all to break up SuperGrievances, then things become more believable.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Chron

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281665165' post='2413665']
The only person who didn't was Heft. And Heft was pretty tired, or drunk, or whatever. The point is that he didn't think it would escalate so quickly. And RV was informed when he took over the discussion that things were probably not a big deal either.

We've said this before so many times, if the person directly involved doesn't see a problem, and the others coming into it are convinced that there isn't a problem, then they aren't going to think that there's a problem.

Of course, hindsight is also 20/20.

So, once again we come back to the main crux of the issue. If GATO took our status as allies at all seriously, they would have understood that sometimes oversights and mistakes happen, and not informing you all at Midnight and 4 in the morning respectively is an example of that.

On the other hand, if Omni went into a tirade about an imaginary plot of us trying to use you all to break up SuperGrievances, then things become more believable.
[/quote]

I guess Omni didn't believe the Heft tired/drunk thing to be a viable excuse. You're right mistakes do happen. the horrific timing of this announcement was a mistake. I think the belief Omni had was not so much that a mistake was made but that mistake could have gotten you and all of your allies rolled. That's a pretty big mistake man.

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281666157' post='2413685']
I guess Omni didn't believe the Heft tired/drunk thing to be a viable excuse. You're right mistakes do happen. the horrific timing of this announcement was a mistake. I think the belief Omni had was not so much that a mistake was made but that mistake could have gotten you and all of your allies rolled. That's a pretty big mistake man.
[/quote]
Only if we chained the treaty, or gave off the impression we might

01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> I'm hoping this doesn't have to come to war.
01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> And if it does I really hope it doesn't affect any of our other allies.
01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> Honestly I wouldn't mind dropping everyone of our treaties right now.
01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> This is our mistake, and it should be on us.

Oh wait.

I think it's sad you'd try and perpetuate such a lame excuse. But hey, all bald faced betrayals are justified in the eyes of the traitors. Thats how rationalization works.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281666681' post='2413703']
Only if we chained the treaty, or gave off the impression we might

01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> I'm hoping this doesn't have to come to war.
01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> And if it does I really hope it doesn't affect any of our other allies.
01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> Honestly I wouldn't mind dropping everyone of our treaties right now.
01[17:23] <Rebel_Virginia> This is our mistake, and it should be on us.

Oh wait.

I think it's sad you'd try and perpetuate such a lame excuse. But hey, all bald faced betrayals are justified in the eyes of the traitors. Thats how rationalization works.
[/quote]

So you feel justified in vilifying and harassing the guy in GATO trying to help you most? Good to know.

Not really the point Chron. The point is anytime you engage in behavior that puts yourself and your allies at risk it is a huge mistake. Regardless of whether or not you ask for help people still want to know immediately. Even if your allies stay out per your wishes they still have to catch egg on their face because the peanut gallery perception of cowardice is there as well.

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281667269' post='2413717']
So you feel justified in vilifying and harassing the guy in GATO trying to help you most? Good to know.

Not really the point Chron. The point is anytime you engage in behavior that puts yourself and your allies at risk it is a huge mistake. Regardless of whether or not you ask for help people still want to know immediately. Even if your allies stay out per your wishes they still have to catch egg on their face because the peanut gallery perception of cowardice is there as well.
[/quote]
I'll gladly call out the nonsense justifications for your alliances betrayal for what they are. That you continue to defend those pretty much sums up the reason why trying to revive that relationship is a fruitless endeavor in my eyes. A betrayal is a betrayal. That said betrayal was brought on by those we thought of as friends, and continues to be justified by those claiming to be our friends, doesn't do much to alleviate our distrust of your AA. When you acknowledge this for what it is, rather than trying to explain your way out of it, then I'll consider letting your excuses go unchallenged.

So, let's talk about cowardice for a second.

If you think that the problem with honoring a request to stay out at an allies insistence is cowardice (lol), then publicly proclaiming your decision to sell out said ally for specious reasoning is somehow supposed to make you out to be hardcore or something? Say all you want about Heft, but his mess up was his alone.

This announcement was done, knowingly, at the behest of your entire government, continues to be supported, implicitly, by that same government, and is being defended publicly, by you. You can't really blame your screw up on a technicality, and you can't avoid taking responsibility for your actions.

Much like how we're taking responsibility for ours, you should grow up, magicninja, and quit making excuses for what you've done. They're GATO's choices, take ownership of them.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Chron

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281667907' post='2413740']
I'll gladly call out the nonsense justifications for your alliances betrayal for what they are. That you continue to defend those pretty much sums up the reason why trying to revive that relationship is a fruitless endeavor in my eyes. A betrayal is a betrayal. That said betrayal was brought on by those we thought of as friends, and continues to be justified by those claiming to be our friends, doesn't do much to alleviate our distrust of your AA. When you acknowledge this for what it is, rather than trying to explain your way out of it, then I'll consider letting your excuses go unchallenged.

So, let's talk about cowardice for a second.

If you think that the problem with honoring a request to stay out at an allies insistence is cowardice (lol), then publicly proclaiming your decision to sell out said ally for specious reasoning is somehow supposed to make you out to be hardcore or something? Say all you want about Heft, but his mess up was his alone.

This announcement was done, knowingly, at the behest of your entire government, continues to be supported, implicitly, by that same government, and is being defended publicly, by you. You can't really blame your screw up on a technicality, and you can't avoid taking responsibility for your actions.

Much like how we're taking responsibility for ours, you should grow up, magicninja, and quit making excuses for what you've done. They're GATO's choices, take ownership of them.
[/quote]

I thought you said I couldn't take responsibility for those actions. You've contradicted so many things you've said I don't really know what your point is anymore. Are you made for the reason of the cancellation? That's fine you are entitled to your opinion. Are you mad I am pointing out facts? I'm sorry for telling the truth. Are you justified or sorry for for berating the guy trying to help you guys out? I don't know anymore.

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281668380' post='2413750']
I thought you said I couldn't take responsibility for those actions. You've contradicted so many things you've said I don't really know what your point is anymore. Are you made for the reason of the cancellation? That's fine you are entitled to your opinion. Are you mad I am pointing out facts? I'm sorry for telling the truth. Are you justified or sorry for for berating the guy trying to help you guys out? I don't know anymore.
[/quote]
I said you can't take responsibility for others actions.

But you're denying that GATO is at fault at all in this.

Youre not pointing out facts at all, you're just repeating tired old arguments about how this isn't some sort of gross overreaction of blatant betrayal, but simply a case of "poor timing". Which I think is very telling about you.

If you don't see the problem for what it is, then all the efforts to fix it in the world aren't going to amount to anything.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281668534' post='2413754']
I said you can't take responsibility for others actions.

But you're denying that GATO is at fault at all in this.

Youre not pointing out facts at all, you're just repeating tired old arguments about how this isn't some sort of gross overreaction of blatant betrayal, but simply a case of "poor timing". Which I think is very telling about you.

If you don't see the problem for what it is, then all the efforts to fix it in the world aren't going to amount to anything.
[/quote]

The last line of your previous post is you demanding I take ownership of GATO's choices.

Look, whether the cause is a good one or not boils down to opinion. You can't attribute truth factor to opinion. So why argue it? If you are asking whether I thought it was a good enough reason to cancel I said I would've personally let it slide. My opinion really don't count though. I couldn't keep Omni from taking it to congress and I didn't have a vote. All of this is fact btw.

Whether or not this is a gross over reaction or not is again opinion and not available to be fact or fiction. That's just the nature of opinion. You are entitled to your's. I won't deny you your right to feel sad over it. Poor timing is an opinion as well. I believe it was awful timing and have apologized.

So, what is the problem besides a difference of opinion between you and Omni?

[unstpblpimp]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281649781' post='2413301']
Why not get those senators that were justified canceling our treaty over an imaginary communications issue out here to tell us that themselves? Or even Omni?
[/quote]

Hi. Just to let you know congress isn't a FA branch of the GATO government so going to confer with other alliances, even allies, is frowned upon. That is why we didn't approach you guys to confirm the chain of events. Obviously this isn't an excuse just an explanation.

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281669655' post='2413783']
The last line of your previous post is you demanding I take ownership of GATO's choices. [/quote] It was a plural use of "you", shorthand for "you all".

[quote]Look, whether the cause is a good one or not boils down to opinion. You can't attribute truth factor to opinion. So why argue it? If you are asking whether I thought it was a good enough reason to cancel I said I would've personally let it slide. My opinion really don't count though. I couldn't keep Omni from taking it to congress and I didn't have a vote. All of this is fact btw.

Whether or not this is a gross over reaction or not is again opinion and not available to be fact or fiction. That's just the nature of opinion. You are entitled to your's. I won't deny you your right to feel sad over it. Poor timing is an opinion as well. I believe it was awful timing and have apologized.

So, what is the problem besides a difference of opinion between you and Omni?
[/quote]
Omni knows the truth, we all know the truth. So either he can stick by this blatantly ridiculous (by anyone's standards but his) excuse for a treaty cancellation, or he can come up with a more believable justification. Because he's already lied to your Congress about how things happened.

Why wouldn't he be lying now?

Quit with the ad hoc reasoning, magic, it's pretty much already been exposed for what it is.[quote name='unstpblpimp' timestamp='1281669847' post='2413792']
Hi. Just to let you know congress isn't a FA branch of the GATO government so going to confer with other alliances, even allies, is frowned upon. That is why we didn't approach you guys to confirm the chain of events. Obviously this isn't an excuse just an explanation.
[/quote]
You have the power to cancel treaties but being informed of the situation is frowned upon? Thats a pretty ridiculous expectation.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Chron

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281670372' post='2413807']
It was a plural use of "you", shorthand for "you all".


Omni knows the truth, we all know the truth. So either he can stick by this blatantly ridiculous (by anyone's standards but his) excuse for a treaty cancellation, or he can come up with a more believable justification. Because he's already lied to your Congress about how things happened.

Why wouldn't he be lying now?

Quit with the ad hoc reasoning, magic, it's pretty much already been exposed for what it is.
You have the power to cancel treaties but being informed of the situation is frowned upon? Thats a pretty ridiculous expectation.
[/quote]

Well what is the truth Chron? Not in opinion form please.

Congress rolls over a lot and usually contains months old members who don't have experience on the FA front which is why we trust the MoFA and AC to give them everything they need to vote.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281670717' post='2413818']
Well what is the truth Chron? Not in opinion form please.

Congress rolls over a lot and usually contains months old members who don't have experience on the FA front which is why we trust the MoFA and AC to give them everything they need to vote.
[/quote]

Is it just me or does it sound like a really really bad idea to be giving inexperienced members the power to screw over the alliance? If I could suggest some legislation, how about a fairly long membership length requirement before you hand people that sort of power?

[magicninja]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1281671056' post='2413827']
Is it just me or does it sound like a really really bad idea to be giving inexperienced members the power to screw over the alliance? If I could suggest some legislation, how about a fairly long membership length requirement before you hand people that sort of power?
[/quote]

Every idea imaginable has been thrown out regarding congress. People just don;t feel right restricting anyone from running for any position. Since congress has the most seats and generally only a dozen people run it is easy for 1-2 less experienced members to get in. I think it was a joke once how easy GATO congress was easy to get into and maybe it still is. Most often the majority of members are those who have been around awhile.

Edited August 13, 2010 by magicninja

[Haflinger]

[quote name='unstpblpimp' timestamp='1281669847' post='2413792']
Hi. Just to let you know congress isn't a FA branch of the GATO government so going to confer with other alliances, even allies, is frowned upon. That is why we didn't approach you guys to confirm the chain of events. Obviously this isn't an excuse just an explanation.
[/quote]
This is really, really dumb. We're an absolute dictatorship and we encourage our members to go and talk to other alliances, especially allies.

Regular members even.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281671769' post='2413843']
This is really, really dumb. We're an absolute dictatorship and we encourage our members to go and talk to other alliances, especially allies.

Regular members even.
[/quote]

Well talking to other alliances and actually conducting official FA business are two different things Haf. It's the second bit we are iffy on congress handling on their own. Usually if congress has direct questions they go to the alliance in question through the MoFA or AC.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281671304' post='2413833']
Every idea imaginable has been thrown out regarding congress. People just don;t feel right restricting anyone from running for any position. Since congress has the most seats and generally only a half dozen people run it is easy for 1-2 less experienced members to get in. I think it was a joke once how easy GATO congress was easy to get into and maybe it still is. Most often the majority of members are those who have been around awhile.
[/quote]

I suppose RV once nearly got into AC so I can't fault congress too much. However it does seem to me that expecting and requiring some level of competence would be a good thing. How about some sort of system where certain positions require experience in related fields. Like have minister level positions require at least one election cycle of experience in that field. So if you want to be MoD you'd need to work in that ministry helping out and learning for at least one election cycle before you're eligible to run the defense of the entire alliance. Then for more important positions like congress you'd need one election cycle's experience in defense, FA, and DA. Then for AC you need all that plus time in congress. It'd make a neat progression, enhance your democratic ideals, and get make sure people with actual experience are running things. Nothing is an instant perfect fix, even the most dictatorial alliances get bad leadership sometimes, but don't let unqualified people run things.

Oh and also once in a while you guys need to suspend the rules for the greater good. Like the dumb technicality(ies?) that screwed over the NSO. "Welp, the fix to that technicality isn't done being voted on" doesn't make you many friends after all...

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281670717' post='2413818']
Well what is the truth Chron? Not in opinion form please.

[/quote]
Obviously there was a sense of urgency to get this cancellation out the door as quickly as possible. That sense of urgency did not come from NSO's end, as we had no intention of getting GATO involved in this mess.

Therefore, the one with the sense of urgency was Omni, with which he was able to convince Congress for the need of getting this cancellation done and made public as quickly as possible.

It being done over half-baked "communication issues" isn't logical. Why would there be a sense of urgency if it was over something as minor as that? And once it became apparent just how ridiculous and mistaken that impression was, why go through with it?

Therefore, there is a motive X which caused Omni to try and go and get that cancellation as quickly as possible. This motive X is of greater importance to Omni, and possibly GATO's congress, than your own PR, hence why this move hasn't been backtracked from.

I want to know what motive X is, I think that since our alliance was thrown under the bus to achieve it, we have some right to know.

Edit: To fix incomplete sentences

Edited August 13, 2010 by Chron

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281672067' post='2413853']
Obviously there was a sense of urgency to get this cancellation out the door as quickly as possible. That sense of urgency did not come from NSO's end, as we had no intention of getting GATO involved in this mess.

Therefore, the one with the sense of urgency was Omni, with which he was able to convince Congress for the need of getting this cancellation done and made public as quickly as possible.

It being done over half-baked "communication issues" isn't logical. Why would there be a sense of urgency if it was over something as minor as that? And once it became apparent just how ridiculous and mistaken that impression was, why go through with it?

Therefore, there is a motive X which caused Omni to try and go and get that cancellation as quickly as possible. This motive X is of greater importance to Omni, and possibly GATO's congress, than your own PR, hence why this move hasn't been backtracked from.

I want to know what motive X is, I think that since our alliance was thrown under the bus to achieve it, we have some right to know.

Edit: To fix incomplete sentences
[/quote]

There may be no motive X. At this point it may just be too hard for them to turn around and admit the mistake.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1281672343' post='2413862']
There may be no motive X. At this point it may just be too hard for them to turn around and admit the mistake.
[/quote]
As I said before, that doesn't explain the urgency. There was something causing the rush, and it wasn't us, nor was it any chance of GATO being dragged into it. The accomplishment of motive X would certainly contribute to not retracting this cancellation, although that could be explained due to a desire to save (some) face.

But the first point, the need for urgency, remains as a strong indicator of the existence of this Motive X.