OBR Treaties

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Methrage' date='07 April 2010 - 01:30 AM' timestamp='1270614631' post='2251299']
It largely depends on the intention going in if people get upset, some see a treaty as a requirement, so some treaties will include ODP clauses like NOIR without expectation but just in case of other alliances having clauses needing one to recognize a CB as valid. NOIR is an example of one with many alliances and the ODP is there just in case, but no strong expectation. It depends on the strength of individual alliance relationships at the moment in the case of ODPs.
[/quote]

Yeah. I think the important thing in any case is to make sure the wording and style of the treaty actually reflects the relationship. Some really are optional in the sense of "We like you guys, but we'll only go to war if there is some other benefit for us as well" which may seem mercenary but at least it's honest, right up to the kind of treaty that says "We'll back you no matter what, even if you screw up." If the expectations of the relationship aren't understood on the same level, all sorts of drama and hurt feelings happens.

Anyway, I like what Dame Hime Themis said about sometimes being a good friend means telling others that they screwed up and can't expect assistance because of it. Even if it strains the relationship a little, it sets good boundaries and expectations. A bit of tough love goes a long way and prevents those sorts of misuses of power that comes when allies back others no matter how heinous the screw-up is and thus triggers the avalanche of treaty activations.

*Edit: words are hard

Edited April 7, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[commander thrawn]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' date='07 April 2010 - 05:46 AM' timestamp='1270615548' post='2251317']
Yeah. I think the important thing in any case is to make sure the wording and style of the treaty actually reflects the relationship. Some really are optional in the sense of "We like you guys, but we'll only go to war if there is some other benefit for us as well" which may seem mercenary but at least it's honest, right up to the kind of treaty that says "We'll back you no matter what, even if you screw up." If the expectations of the relationship aren't understood on the same level, all sorts of drama and hurt feelings happens.

Anyway, I like what Dame Hime Themis said about sometimes being a good friend means telling others that they screwed up and can't expect assistance because of it. Even if it strains the relationship a little, it sets good boundaries and expectations. A bit of tough love goes a long way and prevents those sorts of misuses of power that comes when allies back others no matter how heinous the screw-up is and thus triggers the avalanche of treaty activations.

*Edit: words are hard
[/quote]


Yes, you can't wield ODP's as a club(by forcing anyone into action), but if you are in the right, you likely have nothing to worry about.

[Castles]

I have alot of respect for the values shown in these documents. It is good to see on Planet Bob, those that are willing to be transparent about their values and insist that their partners follow the same.

[Coursca]

You very, very badly need a tl;dr for this. My attention span at 2 AM is approximately "zero."

EDIT: Nevermind, was able to discern a few lists from it. This is cool, but I can't help but be reminded of the Codex from a certain alliance. I hope OBR sticks much more closely to this than others making similar decrees in the past have.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Coursca

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Coursca' date='07 April 2010 - 01:07 AM' timestamp='1270620430' post='2251391']
You very, very badly need a tl;dr for this. My attention span at 2 AM is approximately "zero."

EDIT: Nevermind, was able to discern a few lists from it. This is cool, but I can't help but be reminded of the Codex from a certain alliance. I hope OBR sticks much more closely to this than others making similar decrees in the past have.
[/quote]
OBR walks the walk too. One could argue it is easier for them to do so, being outside the political mainstream, but they do it.

They are a far cry from the Ramlins, and I have full faith in them. Hopefully these ideals gain some momentum.

Edited April 7, 2010 by bigwoody

[Hymenbreach]

No doubt we will have to read this twice to check for little 'clever double meanings' like earlier treaties?

[maxnmike]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' date='07 April 2010 - 01:09 AM' timestamp='1270631357' post='2251477']
No doubt we will have to read this twice to check for little 'clever double meanings' like earlier treaties?
[/quote]

I don't know, it looks like plain enough english to me. However, I suppose that a translator could be found if you prefer a different language.

[eyriq]

Basically this cordons off a nice section of the sand box for you guys to build in, with the only threat of war being if someone busts through your line of troops and tries to kick down some of your sand castles. Too isolationist for my tastes.

[DarkEra97]

[quote name='commander thrawn' date='07 April 2010 - 02:03 AM' timestamp='1270616584' post='2251337']
Yes, you can't wield ODP's as a club(by forcing anyone into action), but if you are in the right, you likely have nothing to worry about.
[/quote]

Exactly, it's nice to see an alliance who appreciates ODP's in the way OBR does.

[Hime Themis]

Gentle Persons

It is all too easy to believe that one’s words contain all the necessary wisdom and eloquence required to make a perfect post and perfect treaty. The Order of the Black Rose believes that one can never have too much knowledge or wisdom, so welcomes all advice offered in good faith, In the days since we posted our new treaties many friends and those not yet friends have offered questions, advice and wisdom. In this process one important point of clarity seems to be coming up regularly in regard to #2 of the PoV. We look at the world with eyes geared to seeing the positive and yet with some innocence. We made very clear our displeasure at any form of spying and our aversion to aggressive war but it left a void in the clarity of our view of what is in fact an aggressive war. There has been considerable debate over the nature of spy attacks and after the advice and wisdom of those who have taken the time to query us we have come to conclude that we have underestimated the importance of the cost of spying. To that end The Order of the Black Rose will now treat any act of spying as a declaration of hostilities by the offending alliance. This therefore implies that any action taken in response would be considered a defensive action. It would still be our fervent hope that like a mistaken tech raid on a member nation that such actions would be settled by apology and reparation but we recognize that any act of hostility that is not settled in this way would be a defensive response for treaty purposes.
To that end the new treaty will be modified by the addition in #2 in the following fashion.
2. not engage in offensive war regardless of provocation.(offensive wars are ones not dictated by specific defensive treaty obligations or as a direct result of hostile action including spying.)
The Order of the Black Rose wishes to thank all those who have generously provided their important input. We are not open to changing our values but recognize that we do not have all the wisdom in Digiterra and are always responsive to wisdom that improves the manner that we write treaties and do our work on Digiterra.

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis

Edited April 11, 2010 by Hime Themis

[iamwalrus]

This is good to see. I know that in a particular dealing with OBR in the past I have been left with a sour taste; however, after reading this statement I will be recommending that we send a diplomat your way asap. I agree wholeheartedly with all that was spoken. Trust is something to be gained over time and this is a wonderful step.