Clarification from The Legion

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='mitchh' date='11 February 2010 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1265948833' post='2176529']
Bolding is mine. I'd contend that you were saying otherwise.

According to them, the decision wasn't made. There is going to be scrambling if somebody posts that you agree to a white peace when you haven't.
[/quote]

According to their various gov members, it seems a whole lot of contradicting events happened actually. I'll refer to my previous post for the rest.

[Mathlete]

There was a miscommunication. Why turn that into bashing?

All of you are playing into NPO's hands! [img]http://localhostr.com/files/d624ef/tinfoil.gif[/img]

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='11 February 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1265949013' post='2176541']
So, since when was this CN-wide charter signed that said the #1 leader in any alliance can single-handedly surrender regardless of the alliance's specific charter?
[/quote]

Since when have people had gov members come over asking for peace claiming the authority to do so without actually informing the rest of his government.

[Sulmar]

[quote name='Kindom of Goon' date='11 February 2010 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1265949166' post='2176549']
From reading that it looks like the veto is only valid for declaring war. No idea if there is another section to it, and I don't really care enough to look.
[/quote]
Yeah, I don't know, they have some weird stuff going on, but I feel like if you are going to give the Consulate the decision to go to war, you also have to give them the decision to peace out as well.

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='Salmia' date='11 February 2010 - 11:24 PM' timestamp='1265948698' post='2176521']
Or you could quit trying to tell a sovereign alliance what to do. This is an internal affairs thing, it may result in actions that you don't like but it is their decision, of course it'll have consequences but they dictate what is legit for their alliance, not you. If they say the process wasn't followed and the sigs aren't legit, then they're not legit.
[/quote]

You could also actually read what he said instead of asking him to do something he never did. Wouldn't that be great?

We're all fine with fighting legion. We'd also appreciate they not send over gov members while having mass confusion going on within their ranks claiming two different stories.

[Sulmar]

[quote name='Dontasemebro' date='11 February 2010 - 11:33 PM' timestamp='1265949233' post='2176550']
I mean, kudos for not surrendering and all, but wtf does that post mean? "We rejected having to give them 600mil and they offered white peace but that was unacceptable." was what it reads at first, but do you mean "We wanted 600mil but they said only white peace and that's unacceptable." Either way, other than the "fake signatures," by sparta....good show?
[/quote]
I believe the initial reps were to be 600 mil, but then they decreased it to white peace. However, Legion didn't want to leave allies out there on the field, so they rejected the offer of white peace as well.

[Locke]

[quote name='Mathlete' date='11 February 2010 - 11:35 PM' timestamp='1265949303' post='2176556']
There was a miscommunication. Why turn that into bashing?

All of you are playing into NPO's hands! [img]http://localhostr.com/files/d624ef/tinfoil.gif[/img]
[/quote]
Clearly Sparta is the new NPO. Down with the evil overlords!

[Gunnar Griffin]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' date='11 February 2010 - 11:35 PM' timestamp='1265949354' post='2176558']
Since when have people had gov members come over asking for peace claiming the authority to do so without actually informing the rest of his government.
[/quote]
They came for peace and terms were given. You have to wait for the other side to accept terms too, you just can't give them and consider them "accepted."

[Shodemofi-NPO]

And [i]this[/i] is why democracy in this realm fails.

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='Gunnar Griffin' date='11 February 2010 - 11:37 PM' timestamp='1265949474' post='2176567']
They came for peace and terms were given. You have to wait for the other side to accept terms too, you just can't give them and consider them "accepted."
[/quote]

No, your MoFA accepted our offer. What part of that is confusing?

[mitchh]

[quote name='KingEd' date='11 February 2010 - 10:29 PM' timestamp='1265948978' post='2176536']
I mean this nicely; who's truly in [i]charge[/i] of your alliance during times of [i]war[/i]? I honestly have no clue.
[/quote]
The Imperator (Hubb) is the chief executive. The Consulate consists of four other offices. Combined, the Imperator and Consulate vote on treaties, requiring majority for it to pass. The Imperator and Consulate have signed peace agreements jointly in the past, so take that as you will. As an answer to your question, I'd venture that the Imperator 'runs' the alliance, with each office performing their respective alliances. No one person is really in charge.

[commander thrawn]

Article 4 Section 5 of the Legion charter.

[quote]D: The Imperator has the ability to declare war,[b] or obtain peace[/b], based on the Legion's current active treaties. Only in the most dire of situations, with the most convicting evidence against another alliance, may the Imperator declare an aggressive war.[/quote]

So I am confused.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Zyvexal' date='12 February 2010 - 04:26 AM' timestamp='1265948771' post='2176527']
Also, IF our Imperator had given the signatures and an official surrender statement, then yes, I do agree that a veto at this point would be stupid, inappropriate and undiplomatic. However, the fact is that he DID NOT give an official statement, and DID NOT put his name down on anything.


[/quote]

It may be hard to accept but, yes, yes he did.

According to some of your higherups in the other discussion on the issue, there was an "internal miscommunication" on your alliances end that ultimately lead to the leader of your alliance feeling like it was prudent to conclude peace terms. Also, note that your MoFA was also involved with the matter.

Be happy with that decision, be angry with that decision, doesn't really matter which. Fact remains it was made.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Dontasemebro]

[quote name='Sulmar' date='11 February 2010 - 11:37 PM' timestamp='1265949455' post='2176564']
I believe the initial reps were to be 600 mil, but then they decreased it to white peace. However, Legion didn't want to leave allies out there on the field, so they rejected the offer of white peace as well.
[/quote]

It seems OP denied the peace terms, then some part of their government forced them to open talks, then the other part tried to veto or something, and someone named Hubb seems to have accepted peace...uhhh, yeah. Thanks for clearing at least why they denied white surrenderpeace up.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Sulmar' date='12 February 2010 - 04:29 PM' timestamp='1265948982' post='2176537']
zomg, I did something unthinkable and actually went to read the Legion's charter.

[quote]# D: The Imperator has the ability to declare war, or obtain peace, based on the Legion's current active treaties. Only in the most dire of situations, with the most convicting evidence against another alliance, may the Imperator declare an aggressive war.
# E: The Consulate are the deciding body on the definition of a "dire or warranted" situation. A vote can be called by any Consul asking for evidence that warrants war, or an explanation as to why war was called. A 3/4 majority vote will determine whether war is warranted or not.[/quote]


These two clauses seem to tell me that while the Imperator does have the ability to declare war and peace, a 3/4 majority vote is necessary from the Consulate. The clause's wording leaves much to be desired, but I feel like that is what it was going for.


Anyways from what I am reading here, Hubb never actually agreed to peace, and gave some ambiguous messages to Legion's opponents that they took as acquiescence. so the charter wording doesn't actually matter.
[/quote]
Hmm- not really- the Imperator is able to declare peace (and the only person who is able to do this). But Part E is only referring to an aggressive war.

That said- it appears Imperial has overstepped his bounds and that this is actually [i]not[/i] valid.

[mitchh]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' date='11 February 2010 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1265949279' post='2176554']
According to their various gov members, it seems a whole lot of contradicting events happened actually. I'll refer to my previous post for the rest.
[/quote]
I must have missed the contradicting statements from the various gov members. Could you direct me to them?

All I've seen is logs of Hubb vaguely agreeing to white peace, and Fingolfin denying that this was the intended message. None of which I would call contradicting, as I haven't seen Hubb consent that he definitively agreed to a white peace.

Edited February 12, 2010 by mitchh

[Sulmar]

[quote name='commander thrawn' date='11 February 2010 - 11:39 PM' timestamp='1265949586' post='2176574']
Article 4 Section 5 of the Legion charter.



So I am confused.
[/quote]
Like I pointed out before, the next article also states that the Consulate needs to approve any war declarations, and in keeping with this, it would only make sense for them to have to approve peace as well.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Shodemofi' date='12 February 2010 - 04:38 PM' timestamp='1265949507' post='2176569']
And [i]this[/i] is why democracy in this realm fails.
[/quote]

Legion has not been democratic for sometime.

[Gunnar Griffin]

[quote name='commander thrawn' date='11 February 2010 - 11:39 PM' timestamp='1265949586' post='2176574']
Article 4 Section 5 of the Legion charter.



So I am confused.
[/quote]
It also states that an Imperator's decision can be overturned; that's why no one gave Sparta the permission to post anything. Nor had we moved on from the discussion phase.

This is my last post in the thread; you can argue semantics, fact is, Sparta jumped the gun.

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='mitchh' date='11 February 2010 - 11:41 PM' timestamp='1265949682' post='2176579']
I must have missed the contradicting statements from the various gov members. Could you direct me to them?
[/quote]

Sure, find me on IRC while I dig them up.

[zyvexal]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='11 February 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1265949622' post='2176575']
It may be hard to accept but, yes, yes he did.

According to some of your higherups in the other discussion on the issue, there was an "internal miscommunication" on your alliances end that ultimately lead to the leader of your alliance feeling like it was prudent to conclude peace terms. Also, note that your MoFA was also involved with the matter.

Be happy with that decision, be angry with that decision, doesn't really matter which. Fact remains it was made.
[/quote]
so i'm guessing you can provide logs of him providing you sigs?

because just those measly 4 lines that you have as an excuse of a log don't prove anything.

[NemaK]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='11 February 2010 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1265949622' post='2176575']
According to some of your higherups in the other discussion on the issue, there was an "internal miscommunication" on your alliances end that ultimately lead to the leader of your alliance feeling like it was prudent to conclude peace terms. Also, note that your MoFA was also involved with the matter.
[/quote]

Misinterpretation on Sparta's side, not our's.

[mitchh]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' date='11 February 2010 - 10:43 PM' timestamp='1265949789' post='2176585']
Sure, find me on IRC while I dig them up.
[/quote]
Edited for clarity. I'd also prefer that the dialogue happen here, as I'm sure everyone is interested in them.

Edited February 12, 2010 by mitchh

[assarax]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' date='11 February 2010 - 10:35 PM' timestamp='1265949354' post='2176558']
Since when have people had gov members come over asking for peace claiming the authority to do so without actually informing the rest of his government.
[/quote]

According to Sparta, Soldiers of Legion did just that when they surrendered to us earlier today.

Edited February 12, 2010 by assarax

[Sulmar]

[quote name='jamesdanaher' date='11 February 2010 - 11:41 PM' timestamp='1265949676' post='2176578']
Hmm- not really- the Imperator is able to declare peace (and the only person who is able to do this). But [b]Part E is only referring to an aggressive war[/b].

That said- it appears Imperial has overstepped his bounds and that this is actually [i]not[/i] valid.
[/quote]
It could be argued that Part E is referring to all wars, in that it says that they have the ability to call a vote to see whether a war is warranted or not.

Regardless, in keeping with the spirit of The Legion's charter, it is obvious that the Consulate is supposed to have some say in matters regarding the alliance; so for the Imperator to just declare peace on his own would be breaking the spirit if not the text of their charter.