57th Overlanders DoW's BC 2.0

[daggarz]

In typically Irish fashion, I arrive late to the party.

In typically 57th fashion, I re-iterate the facts to cut through the amount of spin going on here.

Browncoats made plans to attack the 57th Overlanders (see screenshot).

They had planned on doing so through an ODP treaty with Cult of Justitia (see screenshot and wiki with link - both confirm the ODP).

Cult of Justitia had planned on using their oA clause with Nemesis to hit the 57th in the larger TPF war which has recently ended (for the record, we would have no trouble with Nemesis or CoJ acting in this manner had they done so during the conflict).

Nemesis it would appear, based on what makes the most logical sense off of those screenshots, had planned to hit us after we defended Veritas Aequitas. This is a small amount of speculation, but is the only possible way in which CoJ and BC 2.0 could possibly attack us to begin with. This last point however, is beside the point of our CB.

Alright, CoJ and BC had plans to upgrade their treaty. Have had them as i am led to believe since before the farce of a war just passed. But thats the problem with acting on espionage, you never quite get all the facts.

Browncoats were planning to attack us, via an aggressive clause in their ODP treaty with CoJ that doesn't exist, along with Nemesis and possibly LoSS too. I, and the 57th, have no problem with Nemesis hitting us in that context, nor even with CoJ. I have trouble with BC 2.0 doing so. To head off the logical counter that they would move alongside LoSS, I point you to the screenshots. They were planning on moving with CoJ, and not LoSS. In fact, they couldn't even be certain of LoSS's support. Nemesis alone is more than capable of engaging the 57th, CoJ merely adds to this. BC would merely be bandwagonning.

Nemesis and BC have had really good relations over the past few weeks. When CoJ and BC showed interest in getting experience in war and they had a legal way in. We were not going to deny them.

Browncoats wanted a war against the 57th, we gave it to them, actually allowing them to keep what little honour they may feel they have, intact.

The plans to hit 57th were dashed about 2 days ago. Military updates were happening almost hourly within the deliberate coalition. As such no further plans were made with BC.. it ended. or so we thought.

Nemesis engaging the 57th took me by surprise, I expected better. I was waiting for CoJ to engage as per their ODP with BC, and LoSS to move in defence. What Nemesis have to do with this war at this point in time is quite lost on me.

CoJ is one of Nemesis' best friends and closest allies. When they asked for help in defending BC, we were not to deny them. Add to the fact that we have a MDoAP with LoSS anyway and would have gone in with them if not CoJ.

I will take this time to reply to the "negotiations" that my Lieutenant, Kodiak, partook in, in which the now apparently famous line "We seek to end the alliance, BC2, that schemes to attack us." appears. In short, those "negotiations" were a farce. CoJ/Nemesis/BC2.0/LoSS were involved, with NSO moderating and only Kodiak there from the 57th. Kodiak has a history with BC, and the logs show CoJ/BC 2.0/LoSS and Nemesis clearly demanding an answer Kodiak was uncertain on. He was clearly already flustered by the people he was facing, who outclass him in political experience and diplomacy. The answer he gave was a poor one. Although, if Nemesis had managed to look at our DoW, they will see that has already been answered. BC wanted a war with the 57th, this they received. Our goal here is to give BC this. Not in the manner they would like perhaps, but the lads weren't up for getting jumped on by opportunistic tools. I know, we're not much fun like that. Next time maybe, we'll see. Of course, now it appears that Nemesis jumped on us because they can't keep it in their pants for the length of time it takes for CoJ or LoSS to issue a DoW means that whether we're up for getting jumped on by opportunistic tools is a somewhat moot point.

We had no need to go to peace negotiations. We were asked to enter. Your reasoning is insane and based of loose facts from espionage. The man who acts on a spies word is a fool indeed.

You insult BC, you insult Nemesis.

This is not a good way to get peace.

And if your Lieutenant is not experienced enough he should never have been in there. However his position spoke for 57th overlanders and he said that they wish to end BC and that is still their aim.

Edited January 3, 2010 by daggarz

[Erixxxx]

Well said, Veneke.

o/ 57th

[daggarz]

None of what you said changes the fact that you declared an offensive war against an alliance based on hypothetical war plans made during a time of global conflict, hypothetical war plans which were never approved and hypothetical war plans which you got from less than honourable means.

And when your 2nd in command madea disaster out of the negotiations you claim it to be a farce and not real. Get a grip Veneke, your alliance declared a pre-emptive attack against an alliance that wasn't going to hit you and when offered laughably light terms " A surrender and 21 mill in reps to BC" 57th Denied.

Essentially you cocked up a CB and DoW'd an alliance you hate. How could you not expect to be hit, and hard for that.

Edited January 3, 2010 by daggarz

[Poyplemonkeys]

My response in the circumstances would have been "Talk to you in 22 hours."

Or 6 days.

[Kataklizm the Great]

No need to !@#$%^ and moan about the stinging, 57. You kicked a hornet's nest and just stood there. You need to work on an exit strategy.

[Bernkastel]

They attacked because BC was going to attack them with us in a hypothetical war situation.

Why would you hold a vote with the question being ...

"Should we go to aggressive war against the 57th, with our allies in CoJ and possibly LoSS?"

... and being a hypothetical, why hold a vote at all unless you were absolutely planning it?

That's extremely poor wording to me, it certainly doesn't sound hypothetical and the rest of the post (or posts) have a sense of rage directed at 57th and I can see it being a legit CB for 57th as a threat against their sovereignty and existence. When an alliance is threatened, you as a leader, must respond in some way, shape or form. I believe the 57th has every right to protect themselves.

Sure, alliances do these hypothetical situations all the time, but this just reeks of pure hatred against the 57th.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Luna Sol solis

[Asriel Belacqua]

I like your avatar. Have you had it for the last 2-3 years or something?

But seriously, I can't say I'm surprised Nintenderek was a major player in this. We need only look back at the Bubblegum War...

Saintsmaen, I still like you as a friend, please don't betray that mate, but honestly, Bubblegum War is way behind everyone. I have even forgiven Schattenmann (who as THE major player in that) and we're best buddies now. Also, I think you seem to forget, that while Nintenderek may be Foreign Minister, I am the Prime Minister. There is more to the situation than "he's a major player in it." If Bubblegum war 2.0 even tried starting, I'd end it. It's not, and hasn't, so please don't make that comparison.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Asriel Belacqua

[Voodoo Nova]

Why would you hold a vote with the question being ...

"Should we go to aggressive war against the 57th, with our allies in CoJ and possibly LoSS?"

... and being a hypothetical, why hold a vote at all unless you were absolutely planning it?

That's extremely poor wording to me, it certainly doesn't sound hypothetical and the rest of the post (or posts) have a sense of rage directed at 57th and I can see it being a legit CB for 57th as a threat against their sovereignty and existence. When an alliance is threatened, you as a leader, must respond in some way, shape or form. I believe the 57th has every right to protect themselves.

Sure, alliances do these hypothetical situations all the time, but this just reeks of pure hatred against the 57th.

Explain to me, how is planning to follow treaties during a larger scale war a violation of an alliance's sovereignty and existence?

Edited January 3, 2010 by Voodoo Nova

[Krunk the Great]

And yet they got this information by spying. Bad Form 57th. Spying is the foulest evil.

[daggarz]

... and being a hypothetical, why hold a vote at all unless you were absolutely planning it?

Perhaps they are very diplomatic?

That's extremely poor wording to me, it certainly doesn't sound hypothetical and the rest of the post (or posts) have a sense of rage directed at 57th and I can see it being a legit CB for 57th as a threat against their sovereignty and existence. When an alliance is threatened, you as a leader, must respond in some way, shape or form. I believe the 57th has every right to protect themselves.

Sure, alliances do these hypothetical situations all the time, but this just reeks of pure hatred against the 57th.

The distaste at 57th was due to them getting intel on BC-CoJ. Intel previous to this. Ex members of 57th have stated how much 57th hates BC. Do not blame them for being a little pissed off for being hated.

[Brutilius]

And yet they got this information by spying. Bad Form 57th. Spying is the foulest evil.

Oh the irony.

[Reoga]

Force And Fraud Akodo tells you: “Pure force cannot succeed alone. One needs strategy as well.” I tell you: If you are wise, fraud alone is necessary. As noble Akodo has said, “It is right and proper to use fraud on the battlefield, for it saves the lives of those who follow us.” I say this: if a man has used fraud against me, I consider him a wretch and a scoundrel, and I will not adhere to rules that he ignores. I will not put myself at the disadvantage of free action. The world is filled with evil men, my lord. To refuse an advantage because it is “underhanded” is not only disrespectful of those whom you protect and lead, it is also the most selfish act I can think of.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Reoga

[Krunk the Great]

Oh the irony.

Its killing you amirite?

[Blacky]

Just incase you're wondering. Yes, this wondrous war was truly the result of one alliance over-reacting to hypothetical war discussions. I'm not complaining though.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Blacky

[Bernkastel]

Explain to me, how is planning to follow treaties during a larger scale war a violation of an alliance's sovereignty and existence?

From the way I've read it, analyzed and looked at it, BC planned to attack the 57th first. That's all they need. The full intent to attack was there regardless of the TPF war turnout. BC could have waited 6 months if they wanted to, but instead 57th got word of this and justifiably declared in defense of their sovereignty.

LoSS and Nemesis are just being jokes of alliances as usual and it saddens to see that CoJ has been lowered to a joke as well.

[Krunk the Great]

LoSS and Nemesis are just being jokes of alliances as usual and it saddens to see that CoJ has been lowered to a joke as well.

Except....they're defending a treaty partner who got attacked....Fail logic is Fail.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Krunk the Great

[Voodoo Nova]

From the way I've read it, analyzed and looked at it, BC planned to attack the 57th first. That's all they need. The full intent to attack was there regardless of the TPF war turnout. BC could have waited 6 months if they wanted to, but instead 57th got word of this and justifiably declared in defense of their sovereignty.

LoSS and Nemesis are just being jokes of alliances as usual and it saddens to see that CoJ has been lowered to a joke as well.

The only reason they were going to attack, from what I have gathered in my discussions, was due to the TPF war. That war is now over, making this war invalid.

As to the matter of LoSS being a "joke"; LoSS is not being a joke by defending their protectorate. If such a thing is foolish, I pity anyone who seeks you out for protection.

[Bernkastel]

... The distaste at 57th was due to them getting intel on BC-CoJ. ... Ex members of 57th have stated how much 57th hates BC. Do not blame them for being a little pissed off for being hated.

Bolded the key to the whole thing. To go by the word of possibly disgruntled former members is just laughable.

Also, "blood rivals" as the screenshot says, implies to me there is more hate and distaste then just a few little intelligence leaks. It's a strong phrase that you shouldn't throw around like candy.

[daggarz]

From the way I've read it, analyzed and looked at it, BC planned to attack the 57th first. That's all they need. The full intent to attack was there regardless of the TPF war turnout. BC could have waited 6 months if they wanted to, but instead 57th got word of this and justifiably declared in defense of their sovereignty.

LoSS and Nemesis are just being jokes of alliances as usual and it saddens to see that CoJ has been lowered to a joke as well.

You are so misinformed that it is pitiful. BC were only ever going to attack if Nemesis went in. Shouldn't 57th be attacking us??

The hipocrasy is astounding. The intent to spy was there but they never did so TPF aren't bad.

The intent to attack was there so they are justified in attacking.

Regardless of the fact that the intent WAS NEVER THERE.

[Bernkastel]

...

As to the matter of LoSS being a "joke"; LoSS is not being a joke by defending their protectorate. ...

They didn't get the chance to cancel and switch sides, obviously.

[Blacky]

From the way I've read it, analyzed and looked at it, BC planned to attack the 57th first. That's all they need. The full intent to attack was there regardless of the TPF war turnout. BC could have waited 6 months if they wanted to, but instead 57th got word of this and justifiably declared in defense of their sovereignty.

LoSS and Nemesis are just being jokes of alliances as usual and it saddens to see that CoJ has been lowered to a joke as well.

You really are oblivious to how things work 'round here aren't you? If you aren't ready -- you just aren't. If you knew how often WAR PLANS were drawn out, with target lists compiled, and drawn out into different tiers (sometimes even targets are assigned) for wars that never happened your mind would be boggled. It's what happens, very often. Most times however calmer minds prevail and those hypothetical wars and hypothetical war discussions fade into nothingness. This time however an inexperienced 57th Overlanders caught wind of such discussions and thought it to be a casus belli. They were offered an out and turned it down and for that they now face the brunt of the Nemesis and LoSS military machine.

[Poyplemonkeys]

From the way I've read it, analyzed and looked at it, BC planned to attack the 57th first. That's all they need. The full intent to attack was there regardless of the TPF war turnout. BC could have waited 6 months if they wanted to, but instead 57th got word of this and justifiably declared in defense of their sovereignty.

LoSS and Nemesis are just being jokes of alliances as usual and it saddens to see that CoJ has been lowered to a joke as well.

Browncoats was discussing attacking 57th Overlanders in the event that they were involved in the TPF war on the Veritas Aquitas front. The bit you have bolded is either you being very much mistaken, or just a lie. The latter really wouldn't surprise me given the lengths you stretch to try and make us look bad whatever tiny chance you get. Cute really

Oh looky there, another paragraph proving my point perfectly.

[Hiro Nakara]

Seriously people that live in glass houses should not throw stones, or do you want me to begin throwing stones? As your well aware, I know the current state of your alliance

Edited January 3, 2010 by Hiro Nakara

[Lennox]

Browncoats was discussing attacking 57th Overlanders in the event that they were involved in the TPF war on the Veritas Aquitas front. The bit you have bolded is either you being very much mistaken, or just a lie. The latter really wouldn't surprise me given the lengths you stretch to try and make us look bad whatever tiny chance you get. Cute really

Oh looky there, another paragraph proving my point perfectly.

Actually the BC were planning to attack the 57th when they had their hands full. This wasn't about supporting allies, they wanted to use this as an opportunity to sucker punch 57th. Try again.

[daggarz]

Actually the BC were planning to attack the 57th when they had their hands full. This wasn't about supporting allies, they wanted to use this as an opportunity to sucker punch 57th. Try again.

Actually the BC were planning to support allies not take an opportunity to sucker punch 57th. Try again.

Edit: I thought we were stating random things that have no fact or substance to them and making everyone think its verbatim truth. No?

Edited January 3, 2010 by daggarz