Concerning the use of the Karma moniker

[President Obama]

Right. They haven't announced anything. TOP is interested in peace and diplomacy. I got it.

Back in reality, TOP's NS spikes after the declarations against TPF and 40% of the alliance hits peace mode.

I'm not saying that TOP won't be going to war in the future, but the NS spikes are due to large nations who were ex-members returning.

edit: I see what your saying, we just have different ideas of mobilizing.

Edited December 31, 2009 by President Obama

[dejarue]

I'm not saying that TOP won't be going to war in the future, but the NS spikes are due to large nations who were ex-members returning.

And the peace mode is because you guys like peace.

I was responding to the statement that TPF can only call in a max of 7 alliances to its defense by pointing to the obvious indicators that TOP will be joining the war effort, illustrating that TPF's treaty reach doesn't end at the original treaty ties.

Edit: On looking over your stats, the number of nations with seniority < 3 days does account for the NS spike, so your point is taken there.

Edited December 31, 2009 by deja

[NoFish]

You cant have one alliance under eternal terms and another still under terms and say you dont exist.

Karma exhibit A: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=63887

So that mean MOON still exists too, right? Since they signed it and are keeping NPO under terms.

Karma exhibit B: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=62524

Note: Exhibit B doesnt say Karma but Karma alliances who didnt even fight in the war got reps. This shows the wider Karma group in action. Makes you wonder how they can now say people who didnt directly DoW werent at war when reps were paid out to alliances who didnt DoW or fight.

Uh, everyone who was signed there was at war with Echelon, bro. Learn your history before you make your asinine claims.

I'll nip this one in the butt before you even bring it up. Athens was not declared on and did not declare on Echelon, they inherited the war when TDE merged into them.

[King Srqt]

How about this? If you spy you don't get the luxury of negotiations.

I await all of your moral indignation for such a barbaric and uncouth policy.

I laugh at the side that is talking about how HEINOUS TPF's actions were complaining about moral indignation.

Also TPF never actually executed any spying.

[Gecko]

Sounds like an Obama response to me....

lolwut?

Also, good post Archon. I think I like your principles better than my alliances...

[Alterego]

Did you read the entire section you quoted there? The part you put in bold does indeed say Karma, but it says in general, and then it goes on to say to which alliances the Order surrendered to. If you notice, NPO did not surrender to MK, or to TOP.

It was crystal clear that it was all of Karma, probably as a special humiliation.

The New Pacific Order publicly admits defeat and surrenders to the forces of Karma in general, and (insert nations}in particular.

[delendum]

I laugh at the side that is talking about how HEINOUS TPF's actions were complaining about moral indignation.

Also TPF never actually executed any spying.

You're saying that because they sent somebody else to spy for them, they're not guilty of anything?

Also moral indignation needs to be justified, not done just for the sake of complaining.

[Starbuck]

Did you read the entire section you quoted there? The part you put in bold does indeed say Karma, but it says in general, and then it goes on to say to which alliances the Order surrendered to. If you notice, NPO did not surrender to MK, or to TOP.

are you stilll at war with them?

[delendum]

are you stilll at war with them?

Were we at war with them directly to begin with?

[Alterego]

So that mean MOON still exists too, right? Since they signed it and are keeping NPO under terms.

You have so little to argue with that you have to pull something I would try in my most desperate moment. Does MOON exist? ive no idea but if terms were violated everyone on that list who still exists would be lining up to finish off Echelon or NPO.

Uh, everyone who was signed there was at war with Echelon, bro. Learn your history before you make your asinine claims.

10,000 technology to MK

Do me a favour and find the MK DoW on Echelon then post the link here.

I'll nip this one in the butt before you even bring it up. Athens was not declared on and did not declare on Echelon, they inherited the war when TDE merged into them.

I wasnt talking about Athens. What was it you said? "bro. Learn your history before you make your asinine claims"

Edited December 31, 2009 by Alterego

[Joe Izuzu]

The situation is so incredibly different on all levels its not even funny.

I would agree that the current situation is quite different from the NPO/OV situation. OV spied on NPO in peacetime, got caught, and NPO carried on with negotiations for almost a week before declaring them over and attacking. TPF tried to execute a spy plan while they were actively at war, the plan fell apart before peace was reached, no spying ever actually took place in any event, and GrievanceFriends attacked several months after the fact with no diplomatic effort whatsoever. So, yes, the situations are quite different and not at all funny.

For those who claim that TPF was never at war with either Athens or Rok, that issue has been quite well addressed by Flonker in the MASH thread here and for which I have not seen any credible rebuttal.

....An alliance's goal is to protect is members, that's the reason why anyone goes to war. The CB that athens had showed that their members were being put in danger by TPF, why should they give TPF a chance to inflict more damage?....

You can argue that Athens' members were put in danger during the last war, but since the scheme ended before the war did and there has been no evidence of any hostile activity by TPF since then, you cannot argue that Athens' members were in danger at the time this war started. Well, you can argue, (this is the OWF, after all) but you cannot tender any legitimate rationale to support your contentions.

[delendum]

Do me a favour and find the MK DoW on Echelon then post the link here.

That was part of their surrender terms, something the alliances fighting them requested, not MK. They signed the terms, I fail to see where you're getting with this.

[King Srqt]

You're saying that because they sent somebody else to spy for them, they're not guilty of anything?

Also moral indignation needs to be justified, not done just for the sake of complaining.

No I am saying nobody spied on anyone, the operation was terminated before any spying happened.

A plan to carry out an act of war during war time is enough to justify moral indignation? Please.

[delendum]

I would agree that the current situation is quite different from the NPO/OV situation. OV spied on NPO in peacetime, got caught, and NPO carried on with negotiations for almost a week before declaring them over and attacking. TPF tried to execute a spy plan while they were actively at war, the plan fell apart before peace was reached, no spying ever actually took place in any event, and GrievanceFriends attacked several months after the fact with no diplomatic effort whatsoever. So, yes, the situations are quite different and not at all funny.

For those who claim that TPF was never at war with either Athens or Rok, that issue has been quite well addressed by Flonker in the MASH thread here and for which I have not seen any credible rebuttal.

You can argue that Athens' members were put in danger during the last war, but since the scheme ended before the war did and there has been no evidence of any hostile activity by TPF since then, you cannot argue that Athens' members were in danger at the time this war started. Well, you can argue, (this is the OWF, after all) but you cannot tender any legitimate rationale to support your contentions.

The scheme ended because TPF got into a quarrel with the people that were suppose to be spying for them. The fact that they targeted alliances they weren't even at war with refutes the idea that it was just a war-time tactic. This was meant to be a long term plan which only ended on account of failure, it wasn't something they stopped on account of the war being over.

[King Srqt]

The scheme ended because TPF got into a quarrel with the people that were suppose to be spying for them. The fact that they targeted alliances they weren't even at war with refutes the idea that it was just a war-time tactic. This was meant to be a long term plan which only ended on account of failure, it wasn't something they stopped on account of the war being over.

Why it ended is irrelevant the fact is it ended and you have no evidence that TPF ever tried or even thought about trying to revive it.

Also whether or not they were at war they were planning war actions against alliances that they had a valid reason to be at war with and were arguably already in a state of war with.

[delendum]

No I am saying nobody spied on anyone, the operation was terminated before any spying happened.

A plan to carry out an act of war during war time is enough to justify moral indignation? Please.

That's the whole point, the plan wasn't terminated, the plan failed. They targeted alliances they weren't even at war with, how was it a war-time tactic again?

If they didn't end up fighting with the people sent to spy for them, the whole scheme could have been still in effect today.

[Alterego]

That was part of their surrender terms, something the alliances fighting them requested, not MK. They signed the terms, I fail to see where you're getting with this.

One of the big arguments at the moment is Athens and TPF werent directly at war so the attempt to damage them was illegal. However at least one alliance from Karma not directly at war with a H alliance got reps! See the hypocrisy? My point is there were basicly 2 sides in a large war with some alliances being very clear they werent Karma, Athens was not one of those alliances and as such was in a de facto state of war with H.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Alterego

[Joe Izuzu]

Delendum, you failed to address the issue that, technically, TPF was at war with both Athens and Rok during the last war. So, since they were at war, it was a legitimate (albeit ill-advised) military operation.

Moreover, regardless of why the plan failed, the fact is that it did fail while the war was ongoing and that TPF has not been shown to have initiated any hostile activity since the war concluded.

(edited for typos)

Edited December 31, 2009 by Joe Izuzu

[King Srqt]

That's the whole point, the plan wasn't terminated, the plan failed. They targeted alliances they weren't even at war with, how was it a war-time tactic again?

If they didn't end up fighting with the people sent to spy for them, the whole scheme could have been still in effect today.

Athens committed an act of war against TPF and TPF committed an act of war against Athens, what more is needed for them to be at war?

It was terminated, by ZH, and after that termination there was no action taken to revive the project meaning that it was only a war plan and was never attempted at times of peace.

[delendum]

Why it ended is irrelevant the fact is it ended and you have no evidence that TPF ever tried or even thought about trying to revive it.

Also whether or not they were at war they were planning war actions against alliances that they had a valid reason to be at war with and were arguably already in a state of war with.

Why it ended actually makes a lot of difference. There's no evidence they had any intent to stop it once the war was over. Again, the fact that they targeted alliances they weren't at war with doesn't help their case at all.

[AirMe]

One of the big arguments at the moment is Athens and TPF werent directly at war so the attempt to damage them was illegal. However at least one alliance from Karma not directly at war with a H alliance got reps! See the hypocrisy? My point is there were basicly 2 sides in a large war with some alliances being very clear they werent Karma, Athens was not one of those alliances and as such was in a de facto state of war with H.

Just pointing out that this has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this conversation.

[King Srqt]

Why it ended actually makes a lot of difference. There's no evidence they had any intent to stop it once the war was over. Again, the fact that they targeted alliances they weren't at war with doesn't help their case at all.

The evidence is shown in the fact that it was never attempted during peace, if it was attempted during peace I would love to see your evidence of it.

Again it is easily argued that they were at war with both alliances.

[Alterego]

Just pointing out that this has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this conversation.

There are multiple instances of Karma alliances being interchangeable during the war.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Alterego

[Mussolandia]

Supergrievances FTW. nothing worse than grumpy, pissed off super heros

It's supposed to be embarrassing to you. You have to look like whiny, ineffective jerks. Supercomplaints it is.

[delendum]

One of the big arguments at the moment is Athens and TPF werent directly at war so the attempt to damage them was illegal. However at least one alliance from Karma not directly at war with a H alliance got reps! See the hypocrisy? My point is there were basicly 2 sides in a large war with some alliances being very clear they werent Karma, Athens was not one of those alliances and as such was in a de facto state of war with H.

We're not talking about two groups of alliances randomly fighting each other. Karma wasn't a bloc, it was the name given to a particular side of the conflict. All of Karma wasn't at war with one individual alliance, just as we aren't at war with TPF at this moment, even though we have allies who are.

Delendum, you failed to address the issue that, technically, TPF was at war with both Athens and Rok during the last war. So, since they were at war, it was a legitimate (albeit ill-advised) military operation.

Moreover, regardless of why the plan failed, the fact is that it did fail while the war was ongoing and that TPF has not been shown to have initiated any hostile activity since the war concluded.

(edited for typos)

No, again, they weren't at war with Athens. Were they on the opposite side? Sure. But there's a difference between that and actually being at war with somebody. Again, MK is not at war with TPF at this moment, even if we have allies fighting them. Are you saying we'd be justified in assembling a group to infiltrate and spy on them at this point?

Athens committed an act of war against TPF and TPF committed an act of war against Athens, what more is needed for them to be at war?

It was terminated, by ZH, and after that termination there was no action taken to revive the project meaning that it was only a war plan and was never attempted at times of peace.

We're not talking about Athens alone, and TPF did commit an act of war against alliances they were not at war with.

ZH weren't the decision makers, they were the hitmen. If the hitman gets pissed and doesn't kill the person you sent him after, it still doesn't absolve you of your intentions.