Give Me Water Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 They did not receive peace from Athens after Karma, because they did not actively engage Athens during Karma.Sure they were on opposite sides, but spying is spying, despite when it happened. I really think this whole conflict boils down to your opinion if TPF and Athens were at war or not during Karma. TPF in the treaty they signed believed that they were at war Athens, and explains why this op happened. Those who also believe they were at war see no problem with the spying. Athens and others who think they were not at war do have a problem b/c then the spying happened outside or war. TPF started this op because they believed they were at war with Athens. Athens got mad because they believe that they were not at war with TPF, and so spying was a major issue. Either way, these two opinions are exactly that, opinions. They should be left as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilber Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Yep, TPF spied during the war. Then they kept spying after. I have yet to see a single thing showing that. You might want to show evidence, as the one trotted out by Athens has Beernuts being told it was over prior to the surrender. You keep repeating it but have yet to back it up, while I'm able to argue using evidence Athens itself provided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen Fool Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Archon posted as "Voice of Karma". Athens called itself a member of Karma in numerous public places. TPF surrendered to Karma. Article I ~ SurrenderThe Phoenix Federation (TPF) hereby formally surrenders and admits defeat to Karma, and specifically to Poison Clan, Mushroom Kingdom, Federation of Buccaneers, Nueva Vida, Christian Coalition of Countries, and the Greenland Republic. So yeah your argument is invalid since they specifically defined what "Karma" was in relation to the war against TPF. Why does it matter. TPF surrendered to Athens which means Athens absolved them of thier acts during the war. THE END.TPF did not surrender to Athens.Actually, by both C&G and Mobius accords, they were in a state of war. Athens was at war with NPO, activating Mobius, while C&G states they are all together both offensively and defensively. I'd also assume that Archon and Londo talked, and claiming otherwise is a really poor argument.Wrong. Mostly because of the fact that TPF, and the forces of "Karma" arrayed against it both specifically identified the alliances at war with TPF in the surrender documents. Given the lack of Athens inclusion, your argument again falls short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 None, I guess. So we're agreed TPF spied just as FAN did? Point out where any spying took place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Athens was a very vocal member on the NPO front. Unless you have evidence suggesting they were heavily involved for whatever reason with the TPF front you have no evidence they had any part in TPF surrender term negotiations. There's also the fact their signature doesn't appear on the surrender terms, whether they're in a formal bloc with MK or not. Otherwise, I'm sure some people can e-lawyer their way into proving TPF surrendered to someone fighting on their own side. Londo was a vocal member of Karma, which had official forums multiple official IRC channels and was certainly a formal coalition. The treaty thatTPF signed specified that TPF surrendered to all of Karma and the specific alliances on their front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Article I ~ SurrenderThe Phoenix Federation (TPF) hereby formally surrenders and admits defeat to Karma, and specifically to Poison Clan, Mushroom Kingdom, Federation of Buccaneers, Nueva Vida, Christian Coalition of Countries, and the Greenland Republic. Emphasis mine. All of Karma, and in particular to that front of the war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I have yet to see a single thing showing that. You might want to show evidence, as the one trotted out by Athens has Beernuts being told it was over prior to the surrender. You keep repeating it but have yet to back it up, while I'm able to argue using evidence Athens itself provided. Well, there's evidence TPF set up a spy ring. There's evidence that the spy ring pulled out. Why do I have to show evidence that TPF also ended it? If the evidence existed wouldn't TPF shout it from the rooftop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Point out where any spying took place. Sorry... I meant conspired to spy. Let's call the war off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Well, there's evidence TPF set up a spy ring. There's evidence that the spy ring pulled out. Why do I have to show evidence that TPF also ended it? If the evidence existed wouldn't TPF shout it from the rooftop? TPF didn't set up a spy ring. Drunk Monkey and crew made their own alliance. If they had intention on spying, that act was on their head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) So yeah your argument is invalid since they specifically defined what "Karma" was in relation to the war against TPF.TPF did not surrender to Athens. The word and means in addition to, so no they did not specifically define what Karma meant in regards to the TPF front, if they had that and would be replaced with a comma therefore they did in fact surrender to Athens. Edited December 28, 2009 by KingSrqt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhelm the Demented Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I really think this whole conflict boils down to your opinion if TPF and Athens were at war or not during Karma. It boils down to what TPF did, and how everyone is trying to weasel them out of their predicament. Article I ~ SurrenderThe Phoenix Federation (TPF) hereby formally surrenders and admits defeat to Karma, and specifically to Poison Clan, Mushroom Kingdom, Federation of Buccaneers, Nueva Vida, Christian Coalition of Countries, and the Greenland Republic. So yeah your argument is invalid since they specifically defined what "Karma" was in relation to the war against TPF. TPF did not surrender to Athens. Wrong. Mostly because of the fact that TPF, and the forces of "Karma" arrayed against it both specifically identified the alliances at war with TPF in the surrender documents. Given the lack of Athens inclusion, your argument again falls short. I hope this doesn't get ignored. If TPF viewed themselves to be in a state of War, then they should have declared it so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Londo was a vocal member of Karma, which had official forums multiple official IRC channels and was certainly a formal coalition. The treaty thatTPF signed specified that TPF surrendered to all of Karma and the specific alliances on their front. Once again, you're assuming just because Londo was a vocal member he was involved with TPF surrender terms. Given how many fronts there were, I find it very unlikely he was actively involved with even half of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Sorry... I meant conspired to spy. Let's call the war off. I agree, let's do so. The war is unjustified. TPF and Athens need to sit down get their grievances over with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 TPF didn't set up a spy ring. The logs in the CB, which no one is refuting, make claims to the contrary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Once again, you're assuming just because Londo was a vocal member he was involved with TPF surrender terms. Given how many fronts there were, I find it very unlikely he was actively involved with even half of them. The terms were posted in a pined thread on the Karma forums were all of Karma government, including Londo, could view and express any concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 mhawk didn't set up a sleeper cell, saying he did is BS.Bottom line: Drunk Monkey and Ayrrie, and who ever joined them cowardly escaped the pounding that TPF took to make their own alliance. Then they fabricated a lie with chopped up logs and presented it to Athens in hopes that Athens, doing what Athens does, would immediately move to eliminate ZH's old-time comrades simply because one girl was hurt at the lack of romantic reciprocation. There was no spying. There were no spies. Unless you count Ayrrie maliciously forwarding private conversations to another party. How despicable. If all the "plans" against others were a valid CB then we would be in perpetual war. Understandably, Athens would be very concerned over learning what was planned 6 months ago. But their conduct now is inexcusable. The whole thing is a mess. Everybody needs to stop walking lock step like puppets into a plan put forth by a vengeful girl. The negotiation table is where this needs to be concluded. Now. Not the battle field, for this, it's not worth it. That's pretty much it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 It boils down to what TPF did, and how everyone is trying to weasel them out of their predicament. I hope this doesn't get ignored. If TPF viewed themselves to be in a state of War, then they should have declared it so. It was not ignored it was, however, proven to be incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBone Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 clarification- ZH wanted to discuss ending it. they never officially stated it was over just that they wanted to talk about ending it. I would say this 01[22:54] <DrunkMonkey[ZH]> the op 01[22:54] <DrunkMonkey[ZH]> we're pulling out constitutes an end to the op. That they wanted to speak with mhawk about the reason for ending it does not diminish the fact that it was ended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhelm the Demented Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 The word and means in addition to, so no they did not specifically define what Karma meant in regards to the TPF front, if they had that and would be replaced with a comma therefore they did in fact surrender to Athens. Just because a system says one thing, doesn't mean the system is perfect. Technicalities do not an innocent TPF make. There are murders still free in the world today, because the system failed due to technicalities. I applaud Athens for cutting through the !@#$%^&* and giving TPF their just deserts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilber Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Article I ~ SurrenderThe Phoenix Federation (TPF) hereby formally surrenders and admits defeat to Karma, and specifically to Poison Clan, Mushroom Kingdom, Federation of Buccaneers, Nueva Vida, Christian Coalition of Countries, and the Greenland Republic. So yeah your argument is invalid since they specifically defined what "Karma" was in relation to the war against TPF. TPF did not surrender to Athens. Wrong. Mostly because of the fact that TPF, and the forces of "Karma" arrayed against it both specifically identified the alliances at war with TPF in the surrender documents. Given the lack of Athens inclusion, your argument again falls short. Actually, the word specifically doesn't matter, especially when paid with both the intro, and article II. What seems like ages ago, I came before the world to introduce a coalition, Karma, which would change the face of this world. This coalition brought about the destruction of the Hegemony which ruled Planet Bob with an iron fist, and while its purpose, goals, and methods (including terms of surrender) have been oft debated, this is not the place to do that. That is for the individual alliances who made up the loose coalition to discuss - the alliances grouped here are but a small subset of the whole. This is to honor the end of the largest conflict ever to engulf our planet, and to pay our respects to those who served valiantly until the bitter end.I am here to formally announce the surrender of The Phoenix Federation. They fought with honor and decency, and have patiently worked with us to hammer out these terms. Though his signature may not be on this, due to the announcement made earlier by him, mhawk was very helpful in this process. I would also like to give my thanks to Azaghul and OBM, who were invaluable in this process in working on terms that were acceptable to all involved. And so, without further ado, as the Voice of Karma, I hereby declare an End of Hostilities in the Karma War, and present to Planet Bob the Instrument of Surrender for The Phoenix Federation: Article II ~ ZI lists and warsTPF formally releases all nations from any ZI, PZI, or EZI lists and declares a white peace in all wars against any nation, alliance affiliation, or alliance that is not the undersigned. TPF releases all claims on all alliances (including surrender terms but not treaty partners) and alliance affiliations other than The Phoenix Federation and applicable applicant alliance affiliations. No offensive war or spy attack may be launched against any nation except ghosts and rogues against TPF for the duration of these terms, under the provisions outlined in Article IV. The initial statement showcases that Archon isn't talking for just the undersigned, but for the Karma Coalition as a whole. Londo had knowingly accepted the mantle of a member of Karma. He had shown himself to be active on the Karma boards, and even if he wasn't, was active in communication with Archon. Seeing how it states that TPF surrendered to Karma as a whole, with a specific mention to this actively fighting wars with them, TPF did in fact surrender to Athens, whom they had a defacto state of war with via both the Mobius Accords and the C&G treaties. Londo did allow Archon to speak for him, even if he didn't do it intentionally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 The terms were posted in a pined thread on the Karma forums were all of Karma government, including Londo, could view and express any concerns. Because Londo obviously knew about the sleeper alliance being set up to harm his alliance then, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Just because a system says one thing, doesn't mean the system is perfect. Technicalities do not an innocent TPF make. There are murders still free in the world today, because the system failed due to technicalities. I applaud Athens for cutting through the !@#$%^&* and giving TPF their just deserts. Do you also applaud being fooled by a tiny alliance bent on revenge and attacking someone who, very likely, did not consider them a threat anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give Me Water Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 It boils down to what TPF did, and how everyone is trying to weasel them out of their predicament. however what TPF did can be construed by many as acceptable during war. You say they spied, ok. Some people say that the spying they did was fine because they were in war, where spying happens. Others say that it was not fine, because they were not in war. So once again it comes down to your opinion on if they were at war or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Just because a system says one thing, doesn't mean the system is perfect. Technicalities do not an innocent TPF make. There are murders still free in the world today, because the system failed due to technicalities. I applaud Athens for cutting through the !@#$%^&* and giving TPF their just deserts. So surrendering for your part in a war and expecting to not be attacked for those acts by the people you surrendered to is a technicality? What a strange world you must live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBone Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Athens talked to TPF and absolved them of their acts? By being members of the coalition that made up Karma, and the fact that Karma accepted TPFs surrender, Athens did indeed absolve TPF for any acts of war, during the war.....as did all the other members of Karma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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