A Message to NOIR,RE, and TPF

[SativaZealot]

You did a bang up job! I mean, we're doing absolutely super now!

Thanks SativaZealot, Our hero!

Would you get off your high horse already about being the only one to try and "save us" you didn't try at all, you just tried to coup to transfer power directly to you. That's all you were interested in.

Both you and Zergling keep claiming to be the ones who tried to save NOIR and work for the better, but you both ultimately got annoyed with the fact things weren't going your way and switched gears to reverse and tried to run it off a cliff. I'm not denying that DoorNail and Lkellers actions didn't screw us over even more, but you didn't help either.

You are and were not the bastion of hope and glory for NOIR. Shut up already

Sorry I never once tried to take leadership for myself only to force the the leadership out so the rest of us could get peace and oh gee look what happened?? Everyone but the crappy leadership got peace. Not claiming credit for that but I helped more than you did by attacking people who were actually trying to do something productive.

[Zergling]

Sorry I never once tried to take leadership for myself only to force the the leadership out so the rest of us could get peace and oh gee look what happened?? Everyone but the crappy leadership got peace. Not claiming credit for that but I helped more than you did by attacking people who were actually trying to do something productive.

lol. PWND. And DN what exactly DID you do? Nothing much I bet, cos all I've heard was how you made everyone in NOIR mad.

[Gabryal]

NOIR is very inactive. Inorder to do that you'd need active people which we lacked. If I contacted other alliances they would be intimidated by our size or contact LKeller. So I took the easy way and made RE mad. Worked pretty well.

Well I was thinking of letting either TPF or RE Gov know, neither one of us are intimidated by much. But that explanation does make sense, sorta.

[Zergling]

Well I was thinking of letting either TPF or RE Gov know, neither one of us are intimidated by much. But that explanation does make sense, sorta.

Yeah but trusting a different government is risky ya know. Anyways DoorNail made sure it went off without a hitch.

[Varianz]

Yeah but trusting a different government is risky ya know.

We trust each other completely. What one of us knows, the other does as well.

[Zergling]

We trust each other completely. What one of us knows, the other does as well.

I see, but he's referring to a coalition of members of one alliance going to other alliances for help in overthrowing their own government. Quite a different situation, in that case neither side would probably trust the other, it COULD work but it would require a lot of blind faith.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

Sorry I never once tried to take leadership for myself only to force the the leadership out so the rest of us could get peace and oh gee look what happened?? Everyone but the crappy leadership got peace. Not claiming credit for that but I helped more than you did by attacking people who were actually trying to do something productive.

And who would replace the leadership? Do you honestly expect me the believe that you'd coup the leadership and not take a position of power afterwards?

And yes, evidently leaving the alliance you were trying to 'help' and then turning your back on everything you had previously said certainly is useful, also disregarding all the work that myself and some other commited NOIR members(you know, people who are still members regardless of the recent stomping) have done to try and improve relations with TPF and resolve this.

You clearly are the one and only person who tried to save NOIR from itself.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Johnny Apocalypse

[SativaZealot]

And who would replace the leadership? Do you honestly expect me the believe that you'd coup the leadership and not take a position of power afterwards?

And yes, evidently leaving the alliance you were trying to 'help' and then turning your back on everything you had previously said certainly is useful, also disregarding all the work that myself and some other commited NOIR members(you know, people who are still members regardless of the recent stomping) have done to try and improve relations with TPF and resolve this.

Personally I would have put my 6 year old son in charge of NOIR, he certainly couldn't have done a worse job,and he would have at least made it fun. I left because anyone who in my opinion was worth saving had already left. The only people left were inactives and lapdogs of the useless leadership, neither of which were worth my time or effort.

You clearly are the one and only person who tried to save NOIR from itself.

I'm glad you can admit that it takes a big man to do so.

Edited July 25, 2009 by SativaZealot

[Gabryal]

ok.. .Why didn't those of you in NOIR hatchet job your own Government? If Doorknob and LKeller were such a pain, form a secret government and attack them, it would have been a much better outcome. Zergling why not attack LKeller or Doorknob instead of Tibs? It still doesn't make much sense to me. You could have saved NOIR alot of headaches. A civil war would not have been as disastrous as the one that NOIR found itself in due to no one being able to put force behind their actions.

[SativaZealot]

ok.. .Why didn't those of you in NOIR hatchet job your own Government? If Doorknob and LKeller were such a pain, form a secret government and attack them, it would have been a much better outcome. Zergling why not attack LKeller or Doorknob instead of Tibs? It still doesn't make much sense to me. You could have saved NOIR alot of headaches. A civil war would not have been as disastrous as the one that NOIR found itself in due to no one being able to put force behind their actions.

See the problem with that was the fact that nobody knew what the gov was up to until it was too late. by the time the whole story came out TPF had already obliterated noir and it was all over.

[Gabryal]

Yea I can see how that could have happened. I suppose the question I never asked is: Zergling did you know what Doorknob was up to when you went rogue? Or did you just suspect he was going to do something truly suicidal?

If Yes, then perhaps you could have done either of the other plans I listed, or even made it public to the NOIR members

If No, it kinda makes sense what you did.. sorta.

Here's the even bigger question, did ANYONE but Doorknob know what he was doing?

[Shadow Lurker]

Such good points. I for one didnt know... I had to ask around and thank you to those who told me

I for one, think the elections are failing right now. No one is stepping up, and we need someone, or a group to help out in this.

And Zergling. You say you wanted to help NOIR, then why do you want TBH to demolish us? Why do you want other alliances to Demolish us? I for one, think that is a huge contradition in your arguement.

[Zergling]

Yea I can see how that could have happened. I suppose the question I never asked is: Zergling did you know what Doorknob was up to when you went rogue? Or did you just suspect he was going to do something truly suicidal?

If Yes, then perhaps you could have done either of the other plans I listed, or even made it public to the NOIR members

If No, it kinda makes sense what you did.. sorta.

Here's the even bigger question, did ANYONE but Doorknob know what he was doing?

I did not KNOW what he was up to, but LKeller distrusted him so I kept a close eye on him. He was the one who said that the war with TBH was "a great success" when we did a terrible job. I knew he was not our man because he was not very active on the forums, strange for our second in command.........so with that I thought he was up to something big.

The reason I went after RE is because I knew of our plan to "destroy" them. I knew that if someone were to leak this they would destroy us. Seeing as it was the plan of LKeller and DoorNail I thought it would be a good tactic to use their own plan against them. Irony. It made me look bad at first until LKeller slipped up and let it be known that not only was I in NOIR, but I was high ranking because he took out my Top Secret Clearance. I did not use either of your plans because no one else would support them, only generals knew of their plans so only generals could back me and I might have had one member back my story and that would be it, not very convincing if only two people can back it up.

Why did I not release screenshots? For one screenshots can be photoshoped if one has enough time and not enough of a life. Two, it would be betraying people like Zealot who wanted to help as well as betraying the bad.

All in all I did not KNOW what DoorNail was doing but I had an idea he was up to something. The only person who knew what DN was doing was LKeller, and I have a feeling DN lied to him quite a bit.

[Zergling]

Such good points. I for one didnt know... I had to ask around and thank you to those who told me

I for one, think the elections are failing right now. No one is stepping up, and we need someone, or a group to help out in this.

And Zergling. You say you wanted to help NOIR, then why do you want TBH to demolish us? Why do you want other alliances to Demolish us? I for one, think that is a huge contradiction in your argument.

The elections are failing because no one knows who to trust, and there are not enough active people.

I want to help NOIR, but you called out M*A*S*H to attack TBH, they need them to peace out so that they can peace out with you as well. They don't want another war. They want to mend fences and you are not allowing them to. I also want them to destroy you because LKeller banned me from the forums, good reason except he said the reason was "I disobeyed orders", thing is I never once disobeyed an order, we don't have a charter, and no one ever said "Don't Attack RE" or "Don't bash RE in the forums". So how was that disobeying an order?

[EricPoulin]

Hey Zergling, weren't you part of TBH for a couple of days?

Then that idiot ipwnu attacked you?

EDIT: Sorry for being a bit off topic

Edited July 25, 2009 by EricPoulin

[cs1177]

From a NOIR member's point of view:

When I first joined NOIR, everything was fine. I got a 3BR, and grew well, keeping a spot in the top 20-15 of NOIR for a while. A few initial concerns being the lack of a charter and a members-only IRC channel. In the earlier days, I volunteered to send a mass PM preparing NOIR for war, not knowing why we were going to war, or who war would be launched against.

A few days later, the war on TBH began, and I participated in the small assault. The attack consisted of about anywhere between ten and twenty NOIR nations attacking whoever they could, until LKeller started assigning targets about an hour before the attack, not a huge problem, but attack lists and time to build a warchest would have been nice. Anyway, I attacked two TBH nations, with no retaliation. Two days after we attacked, and two days before we officially gave TBH peace, I started to send peace offers to my targets. I decided on peace myself since this war started to seem more and more pointless as I was never attacked back, and couldn't afford a war much myself.

When the TBH incident cooled down, things went back to normal for the most part, but the TBH war opened my eyes a little to how unorganized we were. I am sorry to say now, that I never showed much initiative to help with this before the TPF war. A new concern now was what seemed to be a two to three person government running a large, sanctioned alliance. I did hear of a bloc in the works between several alliances including us, but I wasn't ecstatic to hear it was an MDAP, and the membership had little to no idea. Two of our allies in this bloc were to be RE and TPF.

Not long after, I logged in to my TE nation to find around twenty messages in my inbox, which could only mean one thing. War. I checked out my war and battles screen and saw I was attacked by two TPF nations and a TBH nation. Right before this, I was under the impression this MDAP bloc was still being written. I got on #noir-te and was directed to these forums to find the war declaration, in it a reference to a hit list with nations of our allies on a public forum. I wasn't very active on the forums due to RL and SE, but active nonetheless, and was baffled that I didn't see the enemy list myself.

Now, our forums are set up in a way in which if you belonged to X battalion, you do not have the permissions to see battalions Y's and Z's forums. So, when I tried to help with organization to make sure a war like this wouldn't happen again, I found it very difficult, having supremely limited access. TPF government members were in our IRC channel several nights, wanting to start peace talks. The problem was now: Our one-person government. LKeller was the only person with a government tag, DoorNail being a General, but considered government. Whilst the flame wars ensued on these forums, NOIR members were taking lots of damage, with a way out if a highly ranked NOIR official would just come into our IRC channel.

Around this time, talks of a Coup D'eta started. I was in the talks, and wanted to help get us out of this situation. Indica Zealot wanted no less than to help us out, and fought hard to get everyone peace. I never wanted a coup, as much as a reformation of government. I recognize that the leaders were great people, but needed more help. LKeller accepted all roles of government. If we had a team devoted to External Affairs, with a separate introspective team, sorting out elections, member's complaints/suggestions, and managing the alliance, I believe we would not have been in such a tight spot. Keller is fine for the job of President, or whatever it's called, but one person handling EA, IA, and most other government positions would be hard on anyone.

Here we are now, some smaller parts were skipped, and nominations have been made for new a Commander in Chief, new Senators, and I do hope our new government will share the load of the work, and run the place a bit more democratically, with the membership knowing what they need to know.

The above is the truth, as I know it, and is just a NOIRians story. B)

Edited July 26, 2009 by cs1177

[Shadow Lurker]

The elections are failing because no one knows who to trust, and there are not enough active people.

I want to help NOIR, but you called out M*A*S*H to attack TBH, they need them to peace out so that they can peace out with you as well. They don't want another war. They want to mend fences and you are not allowing them to. I also want them to destroy you because LKeller banned me from the forums, good reason except he said the reason was "I disobeyed orders", thing is I never once disobeyed an order, we don't have a charter, and no one ever said "Don't Attack RE" or "Don't bash RE in the forums". So how was that disobeying an order?

Ummm actually, no one called MASH to attack. I wanted them to peace out with TBH because it was long over.

I never asked them, told them, or wanted them to attack

and you want us destroyed....because you were banned? sounds like a bad reason. and well, you had no reason to trash someone on there forums. that is very unwise and very Rude. As a visitor, you are supposed to be respectful and not provoke a war.

@cs1177 hope we can get all this settled soon. Everyone is losing faith in NOIR. so can you help me CS? we need to rally everyone. And I cant do anything alone

and well i never knew anything about a bloc, and was not as active on the forums. but I logged in and attacked by 3 TPF.

so ours is simular. But it is over now and we need to work together CS we both need to be active as much as we can that doesnt interfere with RL

[Zergling]

Hey Zergling, weren't you part of TBH for a couple of days?

Then that idiot ipwnu attacked you?

EDIT: Sorry for being a bit off topic

I was ghosting the AA, not an official member cos my nation was far too small for my liking.

[Gabryal]

Something for you guys to think about, there is a word for a government that keeps secrets from it's members: Dictatorship. Also government groups that keep secrets from one another, do nothing to reassure their memberships and cannot or do not meet to discuss larger strategies fall into categories emulated by such persons as Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.

I'm not calling anyone here a genocidal maniac, I'm just saying that it's not to good for the soldier in the trenches to be lied to. I'm well aware that even in the best of nations, such as the US, people are lied to by their political leaders. I may know it better than most, I know how close we were to catching Bin Laden in Afghanistan, I was there. I also know that he was let go at that time for some political reason, because the orders that my troop received made absolutely no military sense, and we all knew it when we got it, even my troop leader, who I've never seen lose his cool, swore up a blue streak over it. I hate to think it was so that the war in Iraq could be launched, but that's how it seems. (Please note I was and am not privy to information at that high a level, I was an 18Z in the Army, not National Security Advisor to the President ) however some way of responsible governance is essential to any nation, either in a game or in RL. We have the good fortune of being able to hold our elected officials accountable for their actions in the US, hence one of the greatest one sided landslides in American politics in the 2008 elections

I suppose the point of all that is this. I would recommend NOIR throw open the election for now, close off any and all "secret" parts of your forums, run a real campaign and hold a real vote. To lead NOIR someone must be trusted, find that someone and put it to them to prove it. You'll have a time of tension following the election/appointment whatever of a new leader, but that new leader MUST be willing to bring sweeping reforms, change, and stability to a badly shaken alliance. Truly I only see one other option for NOIR and that is disband and have each member choose where they wish to go. If you can't come out of this stronger for it, then NOIR is truly dead, whatever it is you believe in is gone, and should be relegated to the sad, but quite numerous, collection of by gone TE Alliances. To avoid this you must find some trust somewhere with someone. I sincerely hope that NOIR comes out stronger and learns from this whole experience. It seems to me like not only did NOIR's membership have no idea what it's government was doing, but that members of it's government had no idea what other members of it's government were doing. It was like instead of one alliance NOIR was made up of a dozen little alliances. These are just observations from an outsider, ment to be constructive not critical. I have no problem with any current or former member of NOIR, I've even cooled my once angry feelings towards Zergling ( though in the future if you wish to stir up something leave the racial remarks out of it please ), though I am not sure if Doornail will ever forgive me for wrecking his nation. In my own defense as far as that goes, he did say on these very forums, in PM's to me and another member of TPF, that he would never give nor accept peace. I don't know if he's bitter or not, for awhile there I felt he truly deserved the beating I gave him, now I actually feel some sympathy for the destruction that he endured.

I wish NOIR the best in your endeavors. I'd even volunteer, if you liked, to be an impartial observer of your election or appointment procedures, a kind of third party observer to try to make sure it's kept both truthful and fair. That's up to you, but perhaps someone without a stake in the outcome, impartial, anyone you could all agree would be fair handed, should be asked to oversee the government reconstruction, again just an idea you might want to bat around.

[Zergling]

Something for you guys to think about, there is a word for a government that keeps secrets from it's members: Dictatorship. Also government groups that keep secrets from one another, do nothing to reassure their memberships and cannot or do not meet to discuss larger strategies fall into categories emulated by such persons as Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.

I'm not calling anyone here a genocidal maniac, I'm just saying that it's not to good for the soldier in the trenches to be lied to. I'm well aware that even in the best of nations, such as the US, people are lied to by their political leaders. I may know it better than most, I know how close we were to catching Bin Laden in Afghanistan, I was there. I also know that he was let go at that time for some political reason, because the orders that my troop received made absolutely no military sense, and we all knew it when we got it, even my troop leader, who I've never seen lose his cool, swore up a blue streak over it. I hate to think it was so that the war in Iraq could be launched, but that's how it seems. (Please note I was and am not privy to information at that high a level, I was an 18Z in the Army, not National Security Advisor to the President ) however some way of responsible governance is essential to any nation, either in a game or in RL. We have the good fortune of being able to hold our elected officials accountable for their actions in the US, hence one of the greatest one sided landslides in American politics in the 2008 elections

I suppose the point of all that is this. I would recommend NOIR throw open the election for now, close off any and all "secret" parts of your forums, run a real campaign and hold a real vote. To lead NOIR someone must be trusted, find that someone and put it to them to prove it. You'll have a time of tension following the election/appointment whatever of a new leader, but that new leader MUST be willing to bring sweeping reforms, change, and stability to a badly shaken alliance. Truly I only see one other option for NOIR and that is disband and have each member choose where they wish to go. If you can't come out of this stronger for it, then NOIR is truly dead, whatever it is you believe in is gone, and should be relegated to the sad, but quite numerous, collection of by gone TE Alliances. To avoid this you must find some trust somewhere with someone. I sincerely hope that NOIR comes out stronger and learns from this whole experience. It seems to me like not only did NOIR's membership have no idea what it's government was doing, but that members of it's government had no idea what other members of it's government were doing. It was like instead of one alliance NOIR was made up of a dozen little alliances. These are just observations from an outsider, meant to be constructive not critical. I have no problem with any current or former member of NOIR, I've even cooled my once angry feelings towards Zergling ( though in the future if you wish to stir up something leave the racial remarks out of it please ), though I am not sure if Doornail will ever forgive me for wrecking his nation. In my own defense as far as that goes, he did say on these very forums, in PM's to me and another member of TPF, that he would never give nor accept peace. I don't know if he's bitter or not, for awhile there I felt he truly deserved the beating I gave him, now I actually feel some sympathy for the destruction that he endured.

I wish NOIR the best in your endeavors. I'd even volunteer, if you liked, to be an impartial observer of your election or appointment procedures, a kind of third party observer to try to make sure it's kept both truthful and fair. That's up to you, but perhaps someone without a stake in the outcome, impartial, anyone you could all agree would be fair handed, should be asked to oversee the government reconstruction, again just an idea you might want to bat around.

I agree with that! As a GENERAL I didn't even know who we were allied to. Thats just crap. How can I plan a war if I don't know who's a friend and who's and enemy?

I would like to be a leader in the alliance however that is CURRENTLY impossible. Next round NOIR may be dead. If it isn't I will try to get leadership under a new name then. As far as I saw the most active member left in NOIR is Shadow Lurker, and that isn't very active. They need help from people like you Gabryal, they have hardly anyone left. Their best members left or were destroyed.

NOIR, follow this mans advice. TPF destroyed you but would probably be glad to help you stabilize. TBH wants to fix relations, and heck who knows they might even want to ally with you eventually. Let in outside help. I would help but you won't accept it, Zealot probably would have helped but you did the same to him now. You must fix your problems now.

[Shadow Lurker]

Thank you Gabryal and Zergling. Im mostly on around midnight and so on. and Im trying my best, but no one answers PM's in the Forum and My IRC crud isnt working.

But news is, Johnny is the only one up for Nominee and senator nominees are Starcraftmazter, Osiris, Kharcodd, Egrievous

And Johnny had the idea to create a new board since no one active is able to do anything on the NOIR forum. Just as an update

And Gabryal, you can help in anyway possible.

@zergling, working on cooling everything with TBH, and Josh is cool and is trying his best for a ceasefire if im correct

Edited July 27, 2009 by Shadow Lurker

[Clash]

But news is, Johnny is the only one up for Nominee and senator nominees are Starcraftmazter, Osiris, Kharcodd, Egrievous

And Johnny had the idea to create a new board since no one active is able to do anything on the NOIR forum. Just as an update

DOH! I just made a big fat post on your old boards

PM me the addy for the new one pls?

[Shadow Lurker]

sure but might take awhile, everyone is busy in RL

but youll get it ok

and the New forum is nowhere near done. Not sure if it is started, but you will get the link nonetheless B)

and thanks for the building guide

maybe we can be allies in this round and later rounds to come

[rtellez06]

Vote RTellez for Noir Dictator!

lol j/k

I still love NOIR, wish all this didn't happen to them.

[Zergling]

Thank you Gabryal and Zergling. Im mostly on around midnight and so on. and Im trying my best, but no one answers PM's in the Forum and My IRC crud isnt working.

But news is, Johnny is the only one up for Nominee and senator nominees are Starcraftmazter, Osiris, Kharcodd, Egrievous

And Johnny had the idea to create a new board since no one active is able to do anything on the NOIR forum. Just as an update

And Gabryal, you can help in anyway possible.

@zergling, working on cooling everything with TBH, and Josh is cool and is trying his best for a ceasefire if im correct

Good to see. I hope you guys get it all worked out so I can sneak in next round. lol. You won't know me but I'll be there