Do you think the current war will/had solve anything

[Archon]

So Q - at one point - was 60% of the games total NS and at the time of the war were 10%?

If memory serves, the 10% was a nation count fraction, not an NS fraction.

[Chaoshawk]

Right, because karma is so open and honest about their intentions, that no one is going to want to take the #1 spot. Everyone is just going to be #2, we're all going to be equal, and PB is about to head into a utopian age.

Right.

Karma is multiple entities that is so loose that it's silly to say all of it wants to take #1. Many alliances in Karma have multiple different goals, its redundant to say that Karma as a whole or majority wants to be the best of the best and take #1 spot, maybe you should name specific alliances instead of saying all of Karma, the de-facto that fought against the Hegemony. You'd have to talk to many leaders of the alliances of Karma and see if most of them say "Yeah I am #1 no matter what it takes."

Edited June 9, 2009 by Chaoshawk

[astronaut jones]

Drai could have worded that better, but please, don't speak based on your feelings of rage alone. Firstly, Karma does not claim to be openly honest - we're not saints, we're, as was said a bit ago by Heinousone, a "response." But what he meant was that nobody in Karma is doing it JUST to be on top, though that's honestly debatable.

What rage? i fought on the side of karma, I was glad to see certain alliances get taken down and taken out.

What I don't like, is people not owning up to what they do. I don't like it when people tell me one thing but their actions say another. So I call it like I see it, and karma had a great opportunity to actually do some good, and they wasted it, and now all you have is a lot of infighting, a lot of vague threats being thrown around between them, and people doing the exact same thing as those they seeked to overthrow, but calling it progress.

[astronaut jones]

Karma is multiple entities that is so loose that it's silly to say all of it wants to take #1. Many alliances in Karma have multiple different goals, its redundant to say that Karma as a whole or majority wants to be the best of the best and take #1 spot, maybe you should name specific alliances instead of saying all of Karma, the de-facto that fought against the Hegemony. You'd have to talk to many leaders of the alliances of Karma and see if most of them say "Yeah I am #1 no matter what it takes."

I didn't say all of karma. Show me where I said all of karma was going for the #1 spot.

[Roadie]

One more reason for you to surrender.

Sorry. Can't do it. Hands were shook.

It is not a bloc fighting NPO, TPF and Avalon. It is a response. The only reason you in TPF are still fighting honestly is because you choose to. The war against NPO would probably have been over by now too had they took the same approach as many other alliances such as yourselves.

Their strategy though is to drag this out and retain as much strength as possible through peace mode.

Though there isn't a piece of cyberpaper stating it's a bloc, for practical purposes, I don't see how it's any different than a bloc in the current situation. A defacto bloc, if you will. Sure, when the war's over it won't be a bloc, but for time being the only difference is paper.

If memory serves, the 10% was a nation count fraction, not an NS fraction.

Thanks you.

[HeinousOne]

Though there isn't a piece of cyberpaper stating it's a bloc, for practical purposes, I don't see how it's any different than a bloc in the current situation. A defacto bloc, if you will. Sure, when the war's over it won't be a bloc, but for time being the only difference is paper.

Ok, so it is a defacto temporary bloc brought together in response to an action of the NPO.

Honestly I do not know why you guys in TPF still think you need to prove yourselves as honorable by staying in the fight. You chose to have most of your nations in the fight while those you are standing by are not doing the same. You have done all you can to help them but now they injure you further by dragging this out. Probably because they think you are not going to be their ally after this.

[Grooveman23]

To be blunt, taking down the NPO won't change a single thing. Sure, you have just "liberated Planet Bob from tyranny..." blah blah blah, but when you put 300 vicious, small dogs against 1 large dog, the 300 are going to chew it up and spit it out.

Simply speaking, what is being accomplished? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Not to mention that some people have joined the NPO without any prior knowledge of this war (myself included) and are being threatened to "cease and desist" our "actions against peace and order". I've been playing for three days. What the hell kind of "actions" can I take against you guys.

It makes you wonder who the real tyrants are. I'm pretty sure its the people who attack this game's younger nations, or more aptly called, children.

[Roadie]

Ok, so it is a defacto temporary bloc brought together to protect a spy.

See wut I did thar? Also, I hope people know I do that just because it gets people worked up.

Honestly I do not know why you guys in TPF still think you need to prove yourselves as honorable by staying in the fight. You chose to have most of your nations in the fight while those you are standing by are not doing the same. You have done all you can to help them but now they injure you further by dragging this out. Probably because they think you are not going to be their ally after this.

Basically it's not about being honorable. We signed up for a war, not a tenth of a war.

[HeinousOne]

To be blunt, taking down the NPO won't change a single thing. Sure, you have just "liberated Planet Bob from tyranny..." blah blah blah, but when you put 300 vicious, small dogs against 1 large dog, the 300 are going to chew it up and spit it out.

Simply speaking, what is being accomplished? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Not to mention that some people have joined the NPO without any prior knowledge of this war (myself included) and are being threatened to "cease and desist" our "actions against peace and order". I've been playing for three days. What the hell kind of "actions" can I take against you guys.

It makes you wonder who the real tyrants are. I'm pretty sure its the people who attack this game's younger nations, or more aptly called, children.

As a former grunt of the NPO I respect your opinion and what you are saying but you have to understand that when you join an alliance you do indeed give tacit approval of their past actions with the most powerful "yes" vote that a nation can give. That is by being part of that alliance. Having just joined the game there is an awful lot that you just cant possibly know about but perhaps you should be asking yourself if just maybe that since there are people doing what you say they are doing that perhaps your alliance has caused such actions by their own actions in the past?

Basically it's not about being honorable. We signed up for a war, not a tenth of a war.

And.....you havnt fought a war yet? Just how much NS have you dropped for that alliance that you are no longer going to have relations with after all this is done? If they gave a damn about you would they be leaving you out to dry while they try and drag this war out to eternity in hopes that they can say they won a war of attrition later?

At some point do what is right for yourselves, seriously, no one at this point will hold it against you.

Edited June 9, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Grooveman23]

As a former grunt of the NPO I respect your opinion and what you are saying but you have to understand that when you join an alliance you do indeed give tacit approval of their past actions with the most powerful "yes" vote that a nation can give. That is by being part of that alliance. Having just joined the game there is an awful lot that you just cant possibly know about but perhaps you should be asking yourself if just maybe that since there are people doing what you say they are doing that perhaps your alliance has caused such actions by their own actions in the past?

And.....you havnt fought a war yet? Just how much NS have you dropped for that alliance that you are no longer going to have relations with after all this is done? If they gave a damn about you would they be leaving you out to dry while they try and drag this war out to eternity in hopes that they can say they won a war of attrition later?

At some point do what is right for yourselves, seriously, no one at this point will hold it against you.

I am aware of what Ivan Moldavi did, and I have read up on the first Great War. But to say the myself or my newer Comrades have done something wrong by taking an Oath to defend values we believe in seems absurd. I am not saying that the NPO has not had a more violent past, but did not the GGA have a troubled past (one particular name comes to mind, something along the lines of P_C), and were they not just allowed to say "This never happened" and keep going along with their business.

The fact is, people make mistakes, but I fail to see how punishing the weak and infirm will help solve your ails.

[enderland]

It makes you wonder who the real tyrants are. I'm pretty sure its the people who attack this game's younger nations, or more aptly called, children.

If you are referring to those in NPO perhaps your alliance should stop recruiting new nations into it while in a state of war.

It is a shame that the NPO only cares about its member count though and not the well being of all the new nations it has tricked into joining it, I agree.

[Roadie]

As a former grunt of the NPO I respect your opinion and what you are saying but you have to understand that when you join an alliance you do indeed give tacit approval of their past actions with the most powerful "yes" vote that a nation can give. That is by being part of that alliance. Having just joined the game there is an awful lot that you just cant possibly know about but perhaps you should be asking yourself if just maybe that since there are people doing what you say they are doing that perhaps your alliance has caused such actions by their own actions in the past?

I'd like to point out to Karma members that the post HO is responding to in this quote is exactly the kind of sign you need to be looking for if you're interested and not pushing so far as to create hundreds of vengeful players that eventually come back to bite you. You should know the danger in this because that's exactly what many of you are. I don't know how exactly to determined the line between accomplishing the goals you set and going too far, but it is there and it is very real.

And.....you havnt fought a war yet? Just how much NS have you dropped for that alliance that you are no longer going to have relations with after all this is done? If they gave a damn about you would they be leaving you out to dry while they try and drag this war out to eternity in hopes that they can say they won a war of attrition later?

At some point do what is right for yourselves, seriously, no one at this point will hold it against you.

We've only fought part of a war. And likely an extremely small part of it at that. From the best I can figure, Karma isn't willing to stop before they get at NPOs banks and NPOs banks do not fight. We can hardly throw the towel 6 weeks into a war that will last a year or more and be able to honestly say we fought a war. It's not for anyone else or to prove anything, it's just how we feel.

[loannes]

I am aware of what Ivan Moldavi did, and I have read up on the first Great War. But to say the myself or my newer Comrades have done something wrong by taking an Oath to defend values we believe in seems absurd. I am not saying that the NPO has not had a more violent past, but did not the GGA have a troubled past (one particular name comes to mind, something along the lines of P_C), and were they not just allowed to say "This never happened" and keep going along with their business.

The fact is, people make mistakes, but I fail to see how punishing the weak and infirm will help solve your ails.

First off, isn't NPO supposed to be on radio silence?

GGA actually was more of a crony to NPO than it was an active aggressor. They started the GGA-Hyperion War and Green Civil War off the top of my head, and probably a few more, but they tended to be one of the people NPO called in.

[HeinousOne]

I am aware of what Ivan Moldavi did, and I have read up on the first Great War. But to say the myself or my newer Comrades have done something wrong by taking an Oath to defend values we believe in seems absurd. I am not saying that the NPO has not had a more violent past, but did not the GGA have a troubled past (one particular name comes to mind, something along the lines of P_C), and were they not just allowed to say "This never happened" and keep going along with their business.

The fact is, people make mistakes, but I fail to see how punishing the weak and infirm will help solve your ails.

That is where your perspective is a little off. You see, you and your nation are part of the NPO and your nations are therefore used in the strategies of your alliance leaders. Thus your nation is not really all your own. You joined an alliance in the middle of a massive war, did you expect your enemies to send you flowers and chocolates along with a welcome to CN message?

I'd like to point out to Karma members that the post HO is responding to in this quote is exactly the kind of sign you need to be looking for if you're interested and not pushing so far as to create hundreds of vengeful players that eventually come back to bite you. You should know the danger in this because that's exactly what many of you are. I don't know how exactly to determined the line between accomplishing the goals you set and going too far, but it is there and it is very real.

We've only fought part of a war. And likely an extremely small part of it at that. From the best I can figure, Karma isn't willing to stop before they get at NPOs banks and NPOs banks do not fight. We can hardly throw the towel 6 weeks into a war that will last a year or more and be able to honestly say we fought a war. It's not for anyone else or to prove anything, it's just how we feel.

To respond to your first statement Roadie, NPO inner propaganda will do that job you speak of if others do not so it actually doesnt matter all that much whom does it. The NPO is going to be isolated and thus they will need to paint a picture for their members that they walk a path of righteousness.

As to your second response then so be it. That is your alliance's sovereign choice. It is not one I would personally agree with but I understand where you are coming from.

[Grooveman23]

If you are referring to those in NPO perhaps your alliance should stop recruiting new nations into it while in a state of war.

It is a shame that the NPO only cares about its member count though and not the well being of all the new nations it has tricked into joining it, I agree.

I received dozens of letters from various alliance, all saying that they were the best. In fact, I received the same letter twice from many of the alliances. Indeed I did get a letter from the NPO, but only one.

What is the significance of this, you may ask? Well, if the NPO were so intent on gathering new members, would I have not received letters more than once from them?

The truth is, I received letters from several of the Karma alliances, more than once. So tell me, who really wants new members? Is it the evil NPO that I keep hearing about, or the conglomerate of alliances that says that NPO is evil for recruiting during wartime, yet they do the exact same thing?

NPO does care for its new recruits. They cared enough to warn me that there was a war going on. They cared enough to tell me that I may be attacked. They cared enough to educate me about the conflict (although I daresay I have forgotten some of the information). It is all speculation, but I can only assume that a Karma Alliance would tell me that I didn't have to worry about anything, that the war isn't that bad, and give me a nice pile of shiny money to ogle.

I wanted an honest alliance, and I got it.

[enderland]

I received dozens of letters from various alliance, all saying that they were the best. In fact, I received the same letter twice from many of the alliances. Indeed I did get a letter from the NPO, but only one.

What is the significance of this, you may ask? Well, if the NPO were so intent on gathering new members, would I have not received letters more than once from them?

The truth is, I received letters from several of the Karma alliances, more than once. So tell me, who really wants new members? Is it the evil NPO that I keep hearing about, or the conglomerate of alliances that says that NPO is evil for recruiting during wartime, yet they do the exact same thing?

I don't think you understand.

I was the MoD for Kronos this past war and the one thing that will always be something I remember is how powerless I felt at being able to adequately defend our smaller new nations. They joined Kronos, and we were unable to protect them due to a lack of numbers in their NS ranks.

I would never mass recruit new nations if that meant that they would likely be attacked in a situation such as the NPO is in currently. They would be joining this game and be largely unable to play it.

The significance is that the NPO has recruited (or had reroll) over 200 nations since the war started. No other alliance has come close.

NPO does care for its new recruits. They cared enough to warn me that there was a war going on. They cared enough to tell me that I may be attacked. They cared enough to educate me about the conflict (although I daresay I have forgotten some of the information). It is all speculation, but I can only assume that a Karma Alliance would tell me that I didn't have to worry about anything, that the war isn't that bad, and give me a nice pile of shiny money to ogle.

I wanted an honest alliance, and I got it.

Phase 1 of indoctrination appears complete.

[Roadie]

To respond to your first statement Roadie, NPO inner propaganda will do that job you speak of if others do not so it actually doesnt matter all that much whom does it. The NPO is going to be isolated and thus they will need to paint a picture for their members that they walk a path of righteousness.

Meh. I dunno if internal preachings matter much if the war is prosecuted long enough. There's a real possibility that if it goes on for a year or two there will be several hundred, rather sour ex-NPOers who leave NPO and join other alliances. That's a disaster waiting to happen. I'm not sure what Karma is trying to accomplish that they haven't already, but they should accomplish it before that point if possible.

[BarbulaM1]

To answer the question simply, the one the poll is actually asking without reading through much of this thread, I will answer back with another question: What did it need to accomplish? I'd say it needed to accomplish a shift in foreign affairs in order to mix up the world a bit. Give the world a kick and see what comes out really. Not any new peace or order but rather what I believe it needed to accomplish; the establishment of dissent and uncertainty. I believe it has accomplished that end, uncertainty.

With uncertainty we get new political moves that have consequence, treaties that possibly mean something and new alliances a chance to move into the cyberverse. With uncertainty we will also weed out many alliances, which is so badly needed.

Otherwise Grooverman, I was new during GWIII and in GATO, what right does any alliance have to attack another alliance and all of its members even new ones? Absolutely every right; otherwise the world would be stagnant.

Edited June 9, 2009 by BarbulaM1

[Teriethien]

NPO does care for its new recruits. They cared enough to warn me that there was a war going on. They cared enough to tell me that I may be attacked.

They cared enough to educate me about the conflict (although I daresay I have forgotten some of the information).

If by educating you meant brainwashing.

[Roadie]

If by educating you meant brainwashing.

I presume then you've been to the NPO forums are have read their information?

[KenoDurkster]

is not all all forms of telling your members not brain washing? you dont say "OMG WE ARE GONNA GET OWNED SO HARDCORE..oh and we totally had this coming sucks you joined us =\" no... you would say "Hey dudes this situation was just an attempt to disrupt our awesomeness and honestly and truthfulness so lets do our best and kick some $@!"

Anything any alliance says to try and inform, presuade, educate is a form of propoganda which can be called "brain washing"

[Teriethien]

I presume then you've been to the NPO forums are have read their information?

Nope, but I would appreciate it if you could share it with us

TBH it was the impression I got from reading his posts. I guess I was being hasty and jumping to conclusions though, although when you have a NPO recruit coming in and defend the NPO based on recruitment policies, meh.

[Desperado]

Simplest Answer: If they can't organize now, how can they organize later?

[HeinousOne]

I received dozens of letters from various alliance, all saying that they were the best. In fact, I received the same letter twice from many of the alliances. Indeed I did get a letter from the NPO, but only one.

What is the significance of this, you may ask? Well, if the NPO were so intent on gathering new members, would I have not received letters more than once from them?

The truth is, I received letters from several of the Karma alliances, more than once. So tell me, who really wants new members? Is it the evil NPO that I keep hearing about, or the conglomerate of alliances that says that NPO is evil for recruiting during wartime, yet they do the exact same thing?

NPO does care for its new recruits. They cared enough to warn me that there was a war going on. They cared enough to tell me that I may be attacked. They cared enough to educate me about the conflict (although I daresay I have forgotten some of the information). It is all speculation, but I can only assume that a Karma Alliance would tell me that I didn't have to worry about anything, that the war isn't that bad, and give me a nice pile of shiny money to ogle.

I wanted an honest alliance, and I got it.

Well I am glad you are happy with your alliance but you should take a look into the recruiting corps of your alliance. If you do such you will understand why you received only one letter from NPO. That is because they make mailing lists of new nations and then hand those out to individual recruiters so that new nations do not get more then one recruitment message from NPO. Why do they do that? Because they get their recruiting numbers show that your response is not limited to just yourself but many others feel the same way as you. I felt the same way when I joined NPO. No one will say the NPO doesn't know how to handle their alliance building business. They are Very good at it.

Meh. I dunno if internal preachings matter much if the war is prosecuted long enough. There's a real possibility that if it goes on for a year or two there will be several hundred, rather sour ex-NPOers who leave NPO and join other alliances. That's a disaster waiting to happen. I'm not sure what Karma is trying to accomplish that they haven't already, but they should accomplish it before that point if possible.

You underestimate the depth of NPO culture within their own forum.

[KenoDurkster]

If you can't organize now how can you later.. is that serious?...why do you think Blitz are so effective? not just because you get 2 hits at once but also the shock factor the attacked alliance is highy disorganized always because they can't know exactly when it happens usually... and when multiple alliances do it it multiples the shock factor.