Why what went around is not coming around

[Azrael Alexander]

So why weren't everyone who canceled on NPO allowed to do the same thing you did?

MDAP =/= MDoAP, i am under the assumption they knew pacifica was going to attack. Also when did the MHA say they could not do it, i don't believe any hitchhiker has called them cowards like many immediately jumped to say. It would be uncharacteristic of some of those alliances not to get involved and I think from Anu's post it is explained. (That is unless you think that is propaganda and misinformation)

The reason nobody pointed that out is because notice of an initial intent to war OV was given to Q government before MHA even left Q. So yes, your government most certainly knew that was coming. MHA had already joined Karma long before that so fighting on NPO's side was kinda out of the question. NPO's attack was not a breach of your treaty with them except in your little dream world.

If it turns out the NPO had said in an official capacity, aka moo posting in the Q boards saying the NPO is going to war at this time (hence notifying us with 24hrs to decide), then two outcomes would have happened i think. 1) we would have cancelled our treaty (or to bypass the cancellation period downgraded it) or 2) We would have defended them (very unlikly imo). Our government made them clear on where we stood, they put us in this postion where we have this uncancelable treaty and we have done what we can in the situation provided with as much dignity as we can.

I only hope that NPO will realise there wrongs and if they do and decide they don't want to cancel the treaty well our banks and our towels will be there for them. And that is indeed my hope.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Shamshir

[der_ko]

While I have no goverment insight in MK, I can safely say a MDP with the NPO would not have gone over well with the general membership and Archon is not one to make highly controversial moves against the wishes of the people.

[Joe Izuzu]

Are you arguing that sethb's solicitation of the intel from BC was all planned?

...A member of a small alliance solicits worthless intel about NPO from Blackstone. NPO bullies and pries. NPO and one of its allies declare on that small alliance because it has too much collusion to put up with NPO and TORN's arrogance and defend their spy....

(I fixed those for you.)

...[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> I got that screenie for you

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> Cheesy

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> about NPO increasing warchest....

It is abundantly clear from the words "that screenie" in the quote, that sethb had prior discussions with Demeanor as to the nature of the illicit intel he was receiving. There is absolutely zero chance that sethb "unknowingly received" the SS from Blackstone. Given that he was an active and knowing participant in the espionage and that he was a ranking gov member of OV, their intransigence over the course of a week of negotiations demonstrates that they never had any intention of acting in good faith. If such behavior had been demonstrated by a gov official of just about any other alliance, that official would have been rightfully tossed under the bus. Yet OV refused to make any concessions with regard to sethb's individual punishment. It is not unreasonable to believe that OV gov as a whole was also knowingly participating in the espionage. Whether that was actually the case is unclear, but a reasonable suspicion exists.

You can debate all you like about the legitimacy of NPO's CB in this matter, but there is no doubt whatsoever that sethb was an actively engaged in intentional spying and deserved to be severely punished.

[Deruvian]

You can debate all you like about the legitimacy of NPO's CB in this matter, but there is no doubt whatsoever that sethb was an actively engaged in intentional spying and deserved to be severely punished.

And yet the fact remains (as Moo implied with his infamous [00:00] quote) that the only way this information could have been retrieved was through the same activities that sethb may have been engaged in. Counter-offers to sethb being attacked was simply the equivalent reaction on the person who "spied to catch a spy" (for simplicity's sake)

[Kevin Cash]

Open world? - Check.

Earth, RL:

You are great friends with a guy, and will always back him up if he gets into a fight. No questions asked.

One night, you go out, he gets a bit drunk, and slaps some girl he doesn't even know while at a bar.

He's about to get his $@! kicked severely. Would you defend him? If you would, you are effectively slapping the girl as well, or at least defending the action.

Planet Bob:

Same thing, but with alliances.

this is a weighted scenario that implies things which did not occur in the actual scenario.

a more accurate comparison would be that a dude threatened my friend and my friend punched him, i didn't witness the dude threatening my friend but i will give my friend the trust that he is telling the truth and defend him, instead of letting him get killed while pondering whether or not his words were accurate and truthful, and certainly not joining in to help others beat up on my friend.

those with friends on both sides, whose friends entered on opposite sides at about the same time, should have chosen neutrality and tried to break up the fight, not weigh that they care more about their friends on one side.

[Detlev]

Detlev,

It seems to me that the legitimacy or illegitimacy of a war often is a matter of which side you belong in. In general it seems that people winning side or the aggressor of a war will think it's legitimate and those on the losing or defensive side will think of it as illegitimate. That's even happening in this war.

For example, being a guy on the losing side, I think there's a case to be made that many of the alliances on the Karma side are folks that have in the past benefitted from and were a party to the way the Hegemony has done things and as such have no real claim against the Hegemony (I admit there are a handful of alliances that I think do have some claim, for example Vox, Fan, MK, NV, GLOF, NpO, but many of the alliances in general were not wronged by NPO but instead, as far as I can tell, just saw an opportunity to get more influence).

I agree for the most part, but I would argue that there are a few examples of clear cut illegitimate aggression. FAN and GPA are obvious, and that GATO was not offered terms of any sort for nearly three months was exceptionally brutal. And I think that NpO deserves to be right along side NPO in this current war more than any other alliance.

you sir are a liar. I don't like you and i am putting your name in my little black book with a frowny face.

I was military high command during the second FAN war and the GPA war. In both cases reasons for war were manufactured. We'd search and search for something we could use and then attack in a gotcha moment.

The case with OV is the exact same senario that has planned out for years under NPO aggression.

GPA was bending over backwards to please the NPO. Then the NPO attacks for weeks and issues extortionary surrender terms.

It was the GPA war and my part in planning it that lead to my leave from the alliance.

The war was unfounded and used only as a way to reclaim the number one spot.

Further more, your tactic of making sly insults, then lying, and then saying people should believe your lie in order to not look foolish is poor form.

It is pretty obvious what NPO has been up to over the past couple of years but nonetheless I appreciate you spelling it out in such clear terms.

This should be read by everyone involved in this war.

At the risk of derailing this discussion, who do you folks think will take the diplomatic top position after this war's over? I must admit I have no idea, I'm inclined to say The Grämlins because they seem to be good at everything but I don't really know enough about the relationships between the Karma nations to really say that with any sort of confidence.

Gramlins, MHA (unfortunately), or MK.

I would very much doubt that the views of Detlev reflect the views of alliance leadership in MK or quite a few other Karma alliances.

Obviously this is correct, unfortunately. If Hegemony's power is not totally broken we will repeat this again. So think long and hard about those harsh terms and worry less about how you're viewed by Hegemony after its over.

Actually I heard you guys tried to treaty the NPO on two seperate occasions.

You heard wrong, lol.

[Kevin Cash]

The reason nobody pointed that out is because notice of an initial intent to war OV was given to Q government before MHA even left Q. So yes, your government most certainly knew that was coming. MHA had already joined Karma long before that so fighting on NPO's side was kinda out of the question. NPO's attack was not a breach of your treaty with them except in your little dream world.

its funny that the few holes in my arguments are quickly filled in by those who are more knowledgeable than myself. thank you for your insight into the situation. i can now safely say that mha has nothing to stand on anymore with this revelation.

[Detlev]

(I fixed those for you.)

It is abundantly clear from the words "that screenie" in the quote, that sethb had prior discussions with Demeanor as to the nature of the illicit intel he was receiving. There is absolutely zero chance that sethb "unknowingly received" the SS from Blackstone. Given that he was an active and knowing participant in the espionage and that he was a ranking gov member of OV, their intransigence over the course of a week of negotiations demonstrates that they never had any intention of acting in good faith. If such behavior had been demonstrated by a gov official of just about any other alliance, that official would have been rightfully tossed under the bus. Yet OV refused to make any concessions with regard to sethb's individual punishment. It is not unreasonable to believe that OV gov as a whole was also knowingly participating in the espionage. Whether that was actually the case is unclear, but a reasonable suspicion exists.

You can debate all you like about the legitimacy of NPO's CB in this matter, but there is no doubt whatsoever that sethb was an actively engaged in intentional spying and deserved to be severely punished.

So how do you know that sethb went to demeanor and requested the intel? How do you know that demeanor didn't go to sethb and offer once he got it? You don't. Sethb isn't a "spy" unless he's in NPO and/or has a multi in NPO, and there's no proof of that. And then there's that pesky admission by moo that NPO "accepts" intel... so of course it is okay for NPO to spy on other alliances but not okay to return the favor.

Of course.

[Mogar]

MDAP =/= MDoAP, i am under the assumption they knew pacifica was going to attack. Also when did the MHA say they could not do it, i don't believe any hitchhiker has called them cowards like many immediately jumped to say. It would be uncharacteristic of some of those alliances not to get involved and I think from Anu's post it is explained. (That is unless you think that is propaganda and misinformation)

From what I've seen NPO did not inform anyone but TORN they were attacking that night, everyone who was in the negotiations was not aware of the planned assault, well until it was on the war screen.

[Kevin Cash]

And yet the fact remains (as Moo implied with his infamous [00:00] quote) that the only way this information could have been retrieved was through the same activities that sethb may have been engaged in. Counter-offers to sethb being attacked was simply the equivalent reaction on the person who "spied to catch a spy" (for simplicity's sake)

your logic does not follow. you imply that it was impossible for a voluntary source to provide that knowledge, which is an obviously untrue statement, as people provide voluntary intel all the time

[Kevin Cash]

So how do you know that sethb went to demeanor and requested the intel? How do you know that demeanor didn't go to sethb and offer once he got it?

try reading the logs, it is abundantly clear that they were in prior communications, and from demeanors wording of 'i got that screenie for you' that sethb had previously requested it; if sethb had not, the context of the pronoun 'that' would be completely unknown and a flagrant violation of all english convention. furthermore, 'for you' indicates further that there were prior communications and that sethb was actively seeking this intel

come on this is not second grade english i should not have to break it down for you

[Kevin Cash]

Bill Clinton parsed words to the point that he didn't know whether sex was sex, or not.

MDoAP spells out that the partner has no need to help you in an OFFENSIVE war. The war we are all fighting today is an NPO OFFENSIVE. Stop parsing words, and look at the DOW's. NPO shot the first shot, plain and simple. Few of NPO's allies were truly obligated to assist them in this war. Some of those who have assisted NPO have only done so because they were bullied - as is common in this game..

Oh yeah. Check out my sig. NPO needs to obey Moo's words. It's obvious who the real cowards are.

the quoted was an older comment and i had since changed my stance regarding the citadel treaty, please read the entire thread before posting, or at least make a special note that you didn't

[Detlev]

try reading the logs, it is abundantly clear that they were in prior communications, and from demeanors wording of 'i got that screenie for you' that sethb had previously requested it; if sethb had not, the context of the pronoun 'that' would be completely unknown and a flagrant violation of all english convention. furthermore, 'for you' indicates further that there were prior communications and that sethb was actively seeking this intel

come on this is not second grade english i should not have to break it down for you

So is it third grade english? Nothing that you said conflicts with what I said.

Demeanor: "Hey I probably gots intel on NPO in a few days. You wants a peep at it?"

sethb: "sure."

later...

Demeanor: "I have THAT [oooooooh] screenie FOR YOU [oooooh]."

BTW, how did anyone see these logs in the first place?

Edited May 6, 2009 by Detlev

[Matthew Conrad]

try reading the logs, it is abundantly clear that they were in prior communications, and from demeanors wording of 'i got that screenie for you' that sethb had previously requested it; if sethb had not, the context of the pronoun 'that' would be completely unknown and a flagrant violation of all english convention. furthermore, 'for you' indicates further that there were prior communications and that sethb was actively seeking this intel

come on this is not second grade english i should not have to break it down for you

The point is that whatever sethb did, NPO admitted they accepted spied/leaked information from another source about the incident. They learned about "possible" spying by implementing the same method. They were asked to ZI whoever leaked the information if they wanted to ZI sethb. They refused and then attacked while peace talks were still happening.

No one needs you to spell it out... Unless you have clear evidence, all you're doing is speculating.

[Kevin Cash]

So is it third grade english? Nothing that you said conflicts with what I said.

Demeanor: "Hey I probably gots intel on NPO in a few days. You wants a peep at it?"

sethb: "sure."

later...

Demeanor: "I have THAT [oooooooh] screenie FOR YOU [oooooh]."

at the very least they knew full well what they were receiving... though the remaining pieces to the puzzle contradict that idea and suggest that ov was working rather closely to bc

BTW, how did anyone see these logs in the first place?

because ov posted them in the channel where the talks were going on? npo hired ov to spy on itself i guess if you want a line to spin it with.

[Detlev]

because ov posted them in the channel where the talks were going on? npo hired ov to spy on itself i guess if you want a line to spin it with.

Which talks?

[Kevin Cash]

The point is that whatever sethb did, NPO admitted they accepted spied/leaked information from another source about the incident. They learned about "possible" spying by implementing the same method. They were asked to ZI whoever leaked the information if they wanted to ZI sethb. They refused and then attacked while peace talks were still happening.

if npo zid everyone who gave them information vital to their defense, well, why would anyone hand them information at all if they did that? do you realize how absurd it is, what youre asking for? i guess npo should also zi everyone they have a treaty with too, because they helped npo protect itself?

it is clear that sethb was actively seeking information, while npo passively accepted intel from a voluntary source, a source they quite possibly did not even know the identity of. the 'zi trade' you propose is not only counter productive and a silly suggestion, but in all likelyhood it couldnt even be fufilled.

finally, peace talks were not happening, after moo lost his internet connection, ov failed, for something like 40 minutes, to contact any member of the npo to resume negotiations. this indicated to moo, who had made it clear he was having internet issues, that ov considered the negotiations over. while it was certainly a great lapse of judgment to not verify his assumption, it was by no means the malicious treachery that the karma spin doctors want you to believe.

[Kevin Cash]

Which talks?

the talks where they were pressuring ov, and in all likelihood bluffed that they had hardcore proof (they probably had knowledge of what was going on but not any hard evidence). ov failed to call the bluff and verified npo and friends belief that they had been working to undermine the npo.

those talks.

[Detlev]

the talks where they were pressuring ov, and in all likelihood bluffed that they had hardcore proof (they probably had knowledge of what was going on but not any hard evidence). ov failed to call the bluff and verified npo and friends belief that they had been working to undermine the npo.

those talks.

Oh wow. So NPO didn't spy on anyone in the first place... One of the IOs divined it. That's just how good NPO is.

Here's an alternate scenario. BC was a set up by NPO. Demeanor is a vladimir multi.

[Matthew Conrad]

if npo zid everyone who gave them information vital to their defense, well, why would anyone hand them information at all if they did that? do you realize how absurd it is, what youre asking for? i guess npo should also zi everyone they have a treaty with too, because they helped npo protect itself?

it is clear that sethb was actively seeking information, while npo passively accepted intel from a voluntary source, a source they quite possibly did not even know the identity of. the 'zi trade' you propose is not only counter productive and a silly suggestion, but in all likelyhood it couldnt even be fufilled.

finally, peace talks were not happening, after moo lost his internet connection, ov failed, for something like 40 minutes, to contact any member of the npo to resume negotiations. this indicated to moo, who had made it clear he was having internet issues, that ov considered the negotiations over. while it was certainly a great lapse of judgment to not verify his assumption, it was by no means the malicious treachery that the karma spin doctors want you to believe.

First, it doesn't matter if you think accepting "vital" information is wrong or not. The point is that NPO holds others to a double standard. Why should NPO be allowed to ZI someone for accepting screenshots and they themselves get away with it. Keep in mind sethb, no matter how you want to spin it, never actually spied on NPO himself. I don't really see how you always make these ridiculous jumps in logic. Because many people felt it fair that if sethb be ZI'd under NPO's standards that NPO's information provider be held under the same scrutiny, you then think that equates to the same level as someone holding a defensive treaty with NPO being ZI'd. No one but you thinks that accepting spied information is the same thing as holding an MDP with someone.

Second, if you actually read the logs or were there yourself (which you were most likely not) you would have realized that TOP was mediating the talks. Representatives from OV and TOP were both confused about the situation when NPO "left" the talks. If Moo dropped out, he should have had his regent handle the situation instead of giving the order to attack. Let me guess, Moo said, "Guys, start a war if my internet connection drops because that obviously means talks are over." OV never considered the talks over; it was NPO who assumed the talks were over and attacked. That is, unless you are confusing the fact that there were two peace talks and not one.

It was in no way clear sethb was actively seeking spied intel. You take the word "that" from a short section of a log dump and get the fact that he was actively pursuing intelligence? One would have to be delusional and unbelievably dense to automatically assume that to be rock solid proof of active spying. Are you saying that it would be more productive to just ZI sethb? Their alliance is bigger so they're obviously in the right. All we wanted was equality (If sethb was wrong, then NPO was in the wrong too since they committed the same thing) and that apparently wasn't enough.

You call Karma spin doctors, but you're the only one here with a completely shrouded point of view.

[Hegemon Rob]

Good read, short, simple, and true.

[loannes]

NPO wasnt on the losing side if people honored their treaties... MHA/Sparta/co all have MADPs with NPO

Pre-war cancellations

Active treaties > ready-to-expire ones

That is all.

[Kevin Cash]

it was NPO who assumed the talks were over and attacked.

didnt i pretty much say that? it is a far jump from 'npo assumed talks were over' and the karma tagline of 'npo intentionally blindsided ov while feigning peace talks.' im glad you at least can admit i am right on this one

It was in no way clear sethb was actively seeking spied intel. You take the word "that" from a short section of a log dump and get the fact that he was actively pursuing intelligence? One would have to be delusional and unbelievably dense to automatically assume that to be rock solid proof of active spying. Are you saying that it would be more productive to just ZI sethb? Their alliance is bigger so they're obviously in the right. All we wanted was equality (If sethb was wrong, then NPO was in the wrong too since they committed the same thing) and that apparently wasn't enough.

and what is npo was unable to identify the source? what if that source didnt come from ov but elsewhere? what if it was just 'rumors' (albeit highly secret rumors) and there existed no singular source, but they wanted to make ov believe there was? there are a wide variety of alternatives to npo having a plant in ov, and you seem more than happy to ignore all the other possibilities that make npo look even a little less evil than you want them to appear.

my friend i can see through the !@#$%^&*, its not very hard.

[Matthew Conrad]

didnt i pretty much say that? it is a far jump from 'npo assumed talks were over' and the karma tagline of 'npo intentionally blindsided ov while feigning peace talks.' im glad you at least can admit i am right on this one

and what is npo was unable to identify the source? what if that source didnt come from ov but elsewhere? what if it was just 'rumors' (albeit highly secret rumors) and there existed no singular source, but they wanted to make ov believe there was? there are a wide variety of alternatives to npo having a plant in ov, and you seem more than happy to ignore all the other possibilities that make npo look even a little less evil than you want them to appear.

my friend i can see through the !@#$%^&*, its not very hard.

Wow you really are skilled at taking half a sentence I wrote and talk about it out of context. You said it was OV's fault for not contacting NPO about the confusion. I countered with NPO should have contacted either OV or TOP about the lost internet connection and it was hubris to call an attack without a plan in place to sort out confusion in the even of a lost internet connection.

Way to go! You can't respond to what I wrote so you downright make something up!

Since you are so dense it is nigh impossible for you to take anything in context, I'll devote an entire paragraph to this statement.

Karma complained about NPO attacking during peace talks; it matters not if it was intentional or not because both OV and the mediator of the talks, TOP, recognized that talks were very much still commencing.

Maybe you can go chop up that statement and say I somehow agree with what you say. Good luck.

Once again, if you would do some prior research once in a while that isn't just CN wiki, you would notice that NPO admitted to accepting intel. Since you so love to hark on a single word implying a world of information, I would argue that accepting means NPO was given such information from a specific source. If they didn't know who it was, why were they so intent on protecting that fact during talks? Why would they not tell Karma they heard the leak from random rumors if it would avoid a war. What benefit would NPO gain from OV believing there was a singular source of leaking, besides everyone thinking that NPO spies. Oh yeah! That would work out well! Whatever is true, we'll never know for sure. So for you to assume you are the "bearer of truth" is laughable at best.

Sir, I can see when people are grasping at air, it's not very hard.

[brass]

it is clear that sethb was actively seeking information, while npo passively accepted intel from a voluntary source, a source they quite possibly did not even know the identity of. the 'zi trade' you propose is not only counter productive and a silly suggestion, but in all likelyhood it couldnt even be fufilled.

No, it is NOT clear that sethb was "seeking" a screenshot.

How's this, it happens often:

Game PM - Blackstone: "Hey! I have a screenshot you might be interested in, do you want it?"

Game PM -OV: "Maybe, what is it?"

Game PM -Blackstone: "Meet me in #irc at xxpm"

Then continue the log with where the tattler picks up, and the only thing NPO does is "Interrogation", tossing out what they do know with what they don't know, trying to get more info. Like A Boss.

Edited May 7, 2009 by brass